since 2002 State has paid out €1bn to Traveller projects (mod warning post 207)

ei.sdraob

moderator note: there's a moderator warning inserted in post 207 (added @ Jan6, 2010 16:54). Any prospective contributors to this thread, kindly read it. It will be assumed that you have. Cheers, sceptre.

url]http://www.independent.ie/national-news/state-paid-out-8364130m-in-funding-to-travellers-1997062.html[/url]

it would seem that since 2002 the State has paid out at least €1bn to Traveller support projects -- again exclusive welfare and unemployment benefits.

so how do we square this circle?

The first examination of funding for Traveller groups in several years has revealed that last year the State provided more than €130m for a variety of projects. This is aside from the social welfare and unemployment benefits paid out to the estimated 30,000 Travellers in the country.

The examination was sparked by a request by the United Nations that Ireland provide proof that it is not systematically discriminating against Travellers as a separate ethnic group within the country.

€4300 euro per each person in this group per year extra on top of whatever welfare benefits

where do I signup to be "discriminated" in this fashion?

murphaph

<awaits do-gooder responses to justify this sort of money>. It's high time it was made attractive to be a middle class middle income earner in Ireland. As for travellers, well, when you opt out of society (that's what you'd all call it if I as a middle class joe soap decided to quit my job and live in a caravan, often on land I don't own nor have any right to be on) then I think society should let you do your own thing, sans support.

The germans have an interesting verb-noun usage. When I alight a train, bus etc. the verb is aussteigen. A person who opts out of society is called an Aussteiger. If people don't want to be part of society by conforming to basic rules such as respect for the property of others etc. then why should society as a whole support such people? Not all travellers fall into this category, some work and don't dump their sh!t all over the place but the ones that do should be cut loose by society.

Ste.phen

As I understand it, you need an advocacy group, as well as some claim to being a unique ethnic group.

(Not commenting on the legitimacy of either claim RE: travellers, but that seems to be how they get such special treatment)

SLUSK

Yup, travellers are really discriminated against. I lived in Ireland as a foreigner for two years and never once did I get any money from the Irish government, why should travellers have all these benefits that no one else is entitled to?

Noffles

I'm looking forward to seeing this justified.....

Like to see what I would be offered if I opted out and dumped ****e all over the place and systematically demolished sections of land over periods of time... then moving on to do the same in another site?

I hope the travellers didn't struggle with frozen roads... they hopefully had gritters near them to help them ferry trash around.

maxximus

It is estimated that the number of travellers in ireland will increase 10 fold in the next 30 years , that is the problem facing the country , whereby what was paid out over the last 10 years will pale into insignificance compared to future costs.

While social welfare costs will be huge , the drain on the health system will be drastic given the huge amount of medical problems that arise in the traveller community due to inbreeding.

People are making their thoughts and fears clear to the relevant government departments on this matter but are being met with a wall of silence.

ei.sdraob

assuming the figures in the indo are correct (whats the name of the report to the UN and where is it available?)

1,000,000,000 / 8 years = 125,000,000 per year

125,000,000 / 30,000 travelers = €4,155 per year extra on top of any other benefits like welfare you name it

not bad at all

as a taxpayer why do i feel like im being shafted every single day for some crazy schemes?

AlekSmart

While social welfare costs will be huge , the drain on the health system will be drastic given the huge amount of medical problems that arise in the traveller community due to inbreeding.

People are making their thoughts and fears clear to the relevant government departments on this matter but are being met with a wall of silence.

Agreed Maxximus,it`s THE gigantic elephant in the room.

The wall of silence is indeed the only official response as I understand various Government Departments are uncertain of how to go about even commissioning studies or reserach for fear of it being struck-down as discriminatory of itself .

Instead the only real coverage has to come from reading court-reports from around the District Courts where passing mention is made of..... "Mr XX`s solicitor,in a plea of mitigation,told the court that his client was a 34 year old father of 12 whose family were living in deplorable conditions etc etc etc..."

With the current focus on our country`s largely bankrupt state,perhaps this depression is a necessary part of bringing us all back to our senses in assessing just who,and at what level,the working contributing population can actually support ?

€64,000 question I suspect ?

maxximus

A similar problem existed in Canada some years ago where compulsory abortion and sterilisation was enforced by the authorities when an indigenous tribe was inbreeding and populating extensively , imagine that happening here.:eek:

Paulzx

How the hell are they classed as an ethnic minority? They're Irish, white and Catholic. Same as the majority of the population in this country.

Just because they choose to live in caravans and behave differently to everyone else doesn't make them an ethnic minority.

Bigdeadlydave

I think its amazing that travelers actually want to live the way they do. I mean, and this aint PC, no one likes them. I mean this in the sense that if they set up shop near your house with caravans etc your gonna want to get rid of them, if a load of them come into a pub many people would be inclined to leave, for example in the summer I was in a pub and the owner got a call telling him that a group of travelers from a funeral were in the town and looking for a drink. He locked the doors, turned off the lights and got everyone to go upstairs to the function room.
I think its a joke that this amount of money goes towards a group which do so much damage, has a big reputation for violence and crime, trashes wherever they currently stay, and has no interest in changing.

cavedave

If you were born in a caravan tomorrow what would you want? It might seem a silly question but some empathy with the 30,000 travelers in this country might help.

I presume you would want
1. A decent education
2. Some defense against crime
3. To be left alone as long as you dont bother others

Do travelers get this? As in do they get even less of these than the average person? 4000 euro per year is a lot of money if it was well spent and meant that traveler children got reasonable educations it might not be a waste though? If a group starting at a low level of literacy, employment and high crime rates need some help that could be effectively given might that be a better plan than "compulsory abortion and sterilisation"(sic).

Almost every country in the world has an underclass/ethnic minority that the normals mock to make themselves feel better. If we did not have the Travelers/Sami/Gypsy's/Aborigines/Indians/Jews/Untouchables we would have to invent them.

Sand

If you were born in a caravan tomorrow what would you want?

4,155 Euro a year, every year on top of all other benefits?

If a group starting at a low level of literacy, employment and high crime rates need some help that could be effectively given might that be a better plan than "compulsory abortion and sterilisation"(sic).

The group tends to need to want to address the main cause of their low levels of literacy, employment and high crime rates: lack of a fixed abode. Thats their choice.

994

cavedave wrote: »

I presume you would want
1. A decent education
2. Some defense against crime
3. To be left alone as long as you dont bother others

Travellers want to bother others and be left alone. They want to commit crimes with impunity. And (from my parents being primary school teachers) I know that most traveller parents (especially fathers, who buy brand-new Jeeps and send their kids to school without breakfast or books) have no interest in educating their children.

ei.sdraob

cavedave wrote: »

If you were born in a caravan tomorrow what would you want? It might seem a silly question but some empathy with the 30,000 travelers in this country might help.

why are they born in a caravan? why do they refuse free houses given to them??
theres empathy and then theres pragmatism
if they want to live in a caravan, fine. but why ask for and get a special treatment?

check this out

A LOCAL authority has been criticised after it spent almost €3m to house just six families.
Clare County Council shelled out €500,000 on each house it built for six Traveller families.

jebus christ, 500K! that can build a 10 bed 500 square meter house, and all for free

Welease

Is that the fault of travellers or the fault of the department/councils who fund this?

~4K is not a lot per family if it is spend on genuine projects and that article does the usual media job of pulling out a few rediculous spends (by councils) to rouse the rabble without actually detailing where the money is being spent. The biggest spend was on education, although the department is light on the details of where the money was actually spent... /ponder

How much is spent per year on unemployed non traveller families using the similar programs? FAS, Housing etc... what's the difference? 40K per student at the FAS centre in Offaly etc...

Looks like another governments spin to take the spotlight of the ****e job they are doing.. people are bored with the public vs. private debate, lets give the rabble the next target.

Flamed Diving

They. Took. Our. Jobs.

ei.sdraob

Welease wrote: »

~4K is not a lot per family if it is spend on genuine projects and that article

you missed the point
thats 4K extra per person per year for last 8 years
on top of other welfare benefits

just because they belong to a minority group
please please do read before posting

once again, thats money on top of any other welfare spending/benefits

Welease

ei.sdraob wrote: »

you missed the point
thats 4K extra per person per year for last 8 years
on top of other welfare benefits

just because they belong to a minority group
please please do read before posting

once again, thats money on top of any other welfare spending/benefits

I read the post and am well aware of the content.

4K per year, whether you like it or not is a small amount of money given the obscene wastage in this country. Without any more details, it is impossible to know if they money was used wisely or not.. As per my example, the students at FAS in Offaly cost about 40K each this year, in that case we are annoyed at FAS/Goverment, but when the same groups spend money on travellers the annoyance is at travellers... Not quiet fair is it?

Do you know what the money was spent on? Do you know how it was accounted for? Do you know the the department/councils tendered for the best possible value in the projects that were undertaken? How much was spend on idiotic vanity projects by idiotic PS departments? What benefits have been derived?

I'm guessing.. No you don't.

irish_bob

Welease wrote: »

I read the post and am well aware of the content.

4K per year, whether you like it or not is a small amount of money given the obscene wastage in this country. Without any more details, it is impossible to know if they money was used wisely or not.. As per my example, the students at FAS in Offaly cost about 40K each this year, in that case we are annoyed at FAS/Goverment, but when the same groups spend money on travellers the annoyance is at travellers... Not quiet fair is it?

Do you know what the money was spent on? Do you know how it was accounted for? Do you know the the department/councils tendered for the best possible value in the projects that were undertaken? How much was spend on idiotic vanity projects by idiotic PS departments? What benefits have been derived?

I'm guessing.. No you don't.

why benchmark against bad behaviour

ei.sdraob

Welease wrote: »

I read the post and am well aware of the content.

in your comment earlier you said

4K is not a lot per family

im putting the facts straight with the given figures, a family is not a person

its over 4K per each person per year for 8 years, year on year, the workings based on the figures given is earlier on in the thread

Welease wrote: »

Do you know what the money was spent on? Do you know how it was accounted for? Do you know the the department/councils tendered for the best possible value in the projects that were undertaken? How much was spend on idiotic vanity projects by idiotic PS departments? What benefits have been derived?

hence why I asked for a details report

what benefits where derived from giving this group of people more money than normal people, just because they are a minority? where did the money go

Welease wrote: »

I'm guessing.. No you don't.

once again you didnt bother reading the thread

if you seen the post earlier linking to this
500K to build a house per one family? really? what did they do line it with gold??
if thats an example of what the money went on then we can see that we were taken for a ride by yet another segment of our society


:rolleyes:

gnxx

It should be stated that the figure is what the government departments stated they spent on traveller related projects when questioned by the UN.

The money wasn't given directly to members of the travelling community to spend to cushions and throws for their caravans. More likely, it was wasted by various government departments on reports and consultant fees.

Welease

ei.sdraob wrote: »

in your comment earlier you said



im putting the facts straight with the given figures, a family is not a person

its over 4K per each person per year for 8 years, year on year, the workings based on the figures given is earlier on in the thread


hence why I asked for a details report

what benefits where derived from giving this group of people more money than normal people, just because they are a minority? where did the money go


once again you didnt bother reading the thread

Again I did read the thread, you just dont seem to want to understand the point...

Person vs. family was a typo..

For the rest, same comment still stands people have very little detail on which to be basing the anger.. It's 4K per person.. how much do we spend per person on rural projects, disabled projects, artist/musician projects, sports projects etc. why don't people have the same reaction to money being spent on those minorities,

ei.sdraob wrote: »

if you seen the post earlier linking to this
500K to build a house per one family? really? what did they do line it with gold??
if thats an example of what the money went on then we can see that we were taken for a ride by yet another segment of our society
:rolleyes:

Again I read that.. So who designed, planned and built the houses including the purchase of the land? Was it the travellers who did this , or was it a local council who haven't a clue how to run their own business properly. As per my initial post, it's not the travellers who have spent close to 1b projects, its the government and councils.. So why vent your anger at travellers?

Its a sensationalist report which highlights nothing more than the usual wastage within the PS and government.. yet in this particular case everyone wants to blame the travellers.

Welease

gnxx wrote: »

It should be stated that the figure is what the government departments stated they spent on traveller related projects when questioned by the UN.

The money wasn't given directly to members of the travelling community to spend to cushions and throws for their caravans. More likely, it was wasted by various government departments on reports and consultant fees.

Precisely.....

ei.sdraob

Welease wrote: »

Its a sensationalist report which highlights nothing more than the usual wastage within the PS and government.. yet in this particular case everyone wants to blame the travellers.

where in this thread have i blamed the travelers for this?

all im asking is why are they getting a special treatment?

you dont need to tell me that our government are incompetent, that bit is obvious

i started this thread not to discuss the few bad apples in their communities, theres rotten apples in all walks of life/groups of people
i started this threads to highlight yet another failure and waste of the government

Taxipete29

ei.sdraob wrote: »

where do I signup to be "discriminated" in this fashion?

ei.sdraob wrote: »

i started this thread not to discuss the few bad apples in their communities, theres rotten apples in all walks of life/groups of people
i started this threads to highlight yet another failure and waste of the government

You wanted to talk about Govt waste yet you chose to include the above line. This has nothing to do with Govt waste. The whole tone of this thread is anti-traveller, infact the whole tone of this forum lately has been anti anyone who gets money from the Govt. PS workers, single mothers, the unemployed and now travellers.

If I started a thread about how much money has been wasted dealing with bogus refugee claims and housing people who have no right to be here in the first place I would be called racist and various other names. Yet this thread is all about discriminating against Irish people who choose a different way of life.

cavedave

Sand

The group tends to need to want to address the main cause of their low levels of literacy, employment and high crime rates: lack of a fixed abode. Thats their choice.

And your going to force abortions on those that don't?
About marrying your cousins from here

"In the resident Pakistani community of some 0.5 million [in Britain] an estimated 50% to 60+% of marriages are consanguineous, with evidence that their prevalence is increasing."

Of course, there are also disadvantages to inbreeding. The best known is medical. Being inbred increases the chance of inheriting genetic syndromes caused by malign recessive genes. Bittles found that, after controlling for socio-economic factors, the babies of first cousins had about a 30% higher chance of dying before their first birthdays

and remember Irish people for years were inbreeding probably at a rate of about 20%*.

So anyone who is concerned with outbreeding should have argued for increased immigration into Ireland to reduce how inbreed we are. So anyone who wants to give out about inbreeding who has previous posts advocating immigration I will listen to.

994

Travellers want to bother others and be left alone. They want to commit crimes with impunity. And (from my parents being primary school teachers) I know that most traveller parents (especially fathers, who buy brand-new Jeeps and send their kids to school without breakfast or books) have no interest in educating their children.

Should the kids be punished because their dad is terrible?

ei.sdraob
why are they born in a caravan? why do they refuse free houses given to them??
theres empathy and then theres pragmatism
if they want to live in a caravan, fine. but why ask for and get a special treatment?

The link posted to shows a terrible local authority. Why give out to travelers because the government is incompetent?

*probably closer to 5% rom looking more into it.

gnxx

ei.sdraob wrote: »

where in this thread have i blamed the travelers for this?

all im asking is why are they getting a special treatment?

you dont need to tell me that our government are incompetent, that bit is obvious

i started this thread not to discuss the few bad apples in their communities, theres rotten apples in all walks of life/groups of people
i started this threads to highlight yet another failure and waste of the government

You implied that they received the money. You even did the math for us.

They didn't receive the cash and they won't.

The beneficiaries from this type of scheme are not the minority groups, but the consultancy groups, quangos and various board members who know how to work this particular system.

It is even difficult to point the finger at the administration of these scams, since the public servants are often under political pressure to ensure that the funds are "spent in accordance with policy".

It would be interesting to perform a freedom of information request to find exactly whose pocket this money lined. I doubt even a penny was spent within the travelling community.

The story here should not be the money spent, but how the money was spent.

Welease

ei.sdraob wrote: »

where in this thread have i blamed the travelers for this?

Well, you responded to me... and I never addressed or quoted you in advance of that If you read the general tone of some of the responses, then you should be able to see why I commented..My comments were nothing more than it's unfair to blame travellers for government wastage.. you seem to concur

You may not have specifically meant it, but re-read your comment.

ei.sdraob wrote: »

if thats an example of what the money went on then we can see that we were taken for a ride by yet another segment of our society

/wink

ei.sdraob wrote: »

all im asking is why are they getting a special treatment?

Many groups get "special" treatment in this country.. Yes travellers have some laws and affermative action programs in place for them, but so do women, physically handicapped, mentally handicapped, ethnic races, rural communities, unemployed, single parents, artists, bankers etc. etc. etc.


Edit - Looks like the previous posters got the point exactly while i was writing this.. thanks.

Flamed Diving

Taxipete29 wrote: »

You wanted to talk about Govt waste yet you chose to include the above line. This has nothing to do with Govt waste. The whole tone of this thread is anti-traveller, infact the whole tone of this forum lately has been anti anyone who gets money from the Govt. PS workers, single mothers, the unemployed and now travellers.

If I started a thread about how much money has been wasted dealing with bogus refugee claims and housing people who have no right to be here in the first place I would be called racist and various other names. Yet this thread is all about discriminating against Irish people who choose a different way of life.

I agree. There appears to be gaping double standards, at play.

Sand

@Taxipete

Yet this thread is all about discriminating against Irish people who choose a different way of life.

It seems to be about complaints for the taxpayer getting billed to fund peoples *choice* of a different way of life. Its not discrimination to object to that.

@cavedave

And your going to force abortions on those that don't?

My, what a wonderful leap in logic and reasoning. Now, sorry, what?