since 2002 State has paid out €1bn to Traveller projects (mod warning post 207)

the_syco

Welease wrote: »

Is that the fault of travellers or the fault of the department/councils who fund this?

Who foots the bill for cleaning up after the travellers? The council & the taxpayer. The lowest figure I've ever seen in a newspaper was €10,000 to clean up after the traveelers move on.

Welease wrote: »

Yet, people in this thread are amazed the same is being offered to unemployed travellers. That is descrimination.

Actually, we're not amazed when they turn down a free house.

Welease

the_syco wrote: »

Who foots the bill for cleaning up after the travellers? The council & the taxpayer. The lowest figure I've ever seen in a newspaper was €10,000 to clean up after the traveelers move on.


Actually, we're not amazed when they turn down a free house.

Who foots the bill for social welfare housing and refuse collection for non travellers? I don't see the issue.

If there were enough halting sites with refuse facilities, would the cost be higher or lower than the cost of providing houses for an equal number of non-travelling social welfare receipients (with refuse collection included)?

I am neither a member of the travelling community, nor do i know anyone.. but the hypocracy on this board is sometimes staggering.. it's ok to provide welfare services for one section of the community but not another. Have a go at single mothers and your likely to be lynched, but apply the same logic to travellers and you get a pat on the back.

douglashyde

LookingFor wrote: »

Increasingly disillusioned by the way we run ourselves.

Don't want to come across as bitter, but, I work crazy hours trying to establish a business that is export-driven (software services, primarily to people abroad). It's exactly the kind of business this country needs, generating 'fresh' money, new cash.

It's still at an early stage though, and it's hard. I have to live at home with my parents. I have an absolute minimum of disposable income. And I mean a minimum...such a minimum that I'd be embarassed to specify. I have to put things like doctor's visits on the long finger because I just can't afford to go every time I need to.

These are choices I've made of course. I could have settled into a 9-5 but I decided I wanted to try for something more. And I'm happy to keep trying and working my ass off to make it happen.

But what bothers me is the absolute absence of any support for people in my position. I went to my local community welfare officer about a year ago on the advice of my brother, who believed I should qualify for minimum income support. However I was met by rather snotty surprise that I would ask for this. I was told that it was my choice to be self employed and it wasn't the government's job to help me out. That if they did help people 'like me' out everyone would just give up their jobs and set up their own business. So basically if you can't or won't do anything productive, you get all the help in the world. If you try to be enterprising? None. None I've yet found at least.

Sorry if I'm resentful, but it amazes me what the government subsidises while neglecting or pilfering the pockets of the people who behave in a way that they should be encouraging.

If - if - I ever do hit that success I'm aiming for, if I ever were to become sufficiently wealthy, I will gladly become a tax exile. This country needs a reboot to be perfectly honest.

Welfare is for unemployed - you should have gone to enterprise ireland or the ISME. However a bank would be the best bet!

OR you could stop working for a year - then apply for this

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/social-welfare/social-welfare-payments/social-welfare-payments-and-work/back_to_work_enterprise_allowance

then go back to the snotty civil servant working in the welfare officer and tell her to do her job right!

Riskymove

Welease wrote: »

Have a go at single mothers and your likely to be lynched, but apply the same logic to travellers and you get a pat on the back.

exactly my point.....why do you think the Indo ran this story?

gnxx

LookingFor wrote: »

But what bothers me is the absolute absence of any support for people in my position. I went to my local community welfare officer about a year ago on the advice of my brother, who believed I should qualify for minimum income support. However I was met by rather snotty surprise that I would ask for this. I was told that it was my choice to be self employed and it wasn't the government's job to help me out. That if they did help people 'like me' out everyone would just give up their jobs and set up their own business. So basically if you can't or won't do anything productive, you get all the help in the world. If you try to be enterprising? None. None I've yet found at least.

Sorry if I'm resentful, but it amazes me what the government subsidises while neglecting or pilfering the pockets of the people who behave in a way that they should be encouraging.

If - if - I ever do hit that success I'm aiming for, if I ever were to become sufficiently wealthy, I will gladly become a tax exile. This country needs a reboot to be perfectly honest.

However, if you read the newspapers, you will see that FAS, Enterprise Ireland, County Boards, Digital Hub, Science Foundation Ireland, trade and employment etc etc have budgets of millions to support small business.

You will also read that immigrants, travellers, gays, people with disabilities, sick people, old people etc are receiving funding.

This is my point with this thread. The cash does not get to the the alleged beneficary. It is wasted by consultancy firms producing reports on "viability or feasibility studies" or it is spent on "awareness" advertising.

The vast majority of this cash that isn't wasted in the public sector by various quangos ends up in a small group of private sector consultancy firms or the pockets of a "directors" in the various quangos.

If we read the newspapers, we believe that startup business is adequetely supported by the various organisations. It isn't. I've been through the same loop.

However, I'm sure members of the travelling community also read the newspapers and wonder where the cash they are allegedly receiving is actually going.

Flamed Diving

the_syco wrote: »

Who foots the bill for cleaning up after the travellers? The council & the taxpayer. The lowest figure I've ever seen in a newspaper was €10,000 to clean up after the traveelers move on.


Actually, we're not amazed when they turn down a free house.

Just as a thought exercise, can you come up with a logical reason as to why this might be?

irish_bob

Welease wrote: »

Who foots the bill for social welfare housing and refuse collection for non travellers? I don't see the issue.

If there were enough halting sites with refuse facilities, would the cost be higher or lower than the cost of providing houses for an equal number of non-travelling social welfare receipients (with refuse collection included)?

I am neither a member of the travelling community, nor do i know anyone.. but the hypocracy on this board is sometimes staggering.. it's ok to provide welfare services for one section of the community but not another. Have a go at single mothers and your likely to be lynched, but apply the same logic to travellers and you get a pat on the back.

the majority of single mothers are not involved in criminal activity

Welease

irish_bob wrote: »

the majority of single mothers are not involved in criminal activity

Really? Care to point me to some data to backup that claim...
Can you show me where we stop welfare funding for any other social groups who's members may have broken laws?

LookingFor

The last 'single mothers' thread I can recall here hardly gave the impression of people being hounded for coming down hard on them. There was equally plenty of complaint there about how money and resources were being distributed.

Welease

LookingFor wrote: »

The last 'single mothers' thread I can recall here hardly gave the impression of people being hounded for coming down hard on them. There was equally plenty of complaint there about how money and resources were being distributed.

Respectfully, if you re-read that thread you will see the majority differentiate between the genuine single-mothers and the "career" single mothers (for want of a better expression). Here, there is no such differentiation, the vast majority of this posters in this thread seem to be happy to tar a whole social group with a single brush for getting the same benefits available to other social and ethnic groups, without actually being able to provide a single shred of evidence for some of the outlandish claims (the majority are criminals etc.).

As before though, I am in 100% agreement with you that it's the governments wasting the money

Edit - From my perspective, further discussion is most likely pointless, the bigots in this thread will continue to victimise travellers etc. as the recipients of welfare offered to other communities, and nothing I will say is likely to change that.

Double Edit (for clarification)- I am not referring specifically to LookingFor as a bigot

the iceman come

Slightly off topic but still relevant, did anyone read the Sunday world report yesterday on the traveller convoy in a small town of Rathkeale ? apparently they arived in a convoy of brand new mercs (amgs too) range rovers jags and so on(no hiaces in sight) total cost was estimated to be 10 million! whats really gas about this though is the local HSE set up a clinic to provide these poor souls with healthcare while they passed through,dont you just love them, aslo as some else pointed out earlier on this tgread they are breeding like rabbits and in a few short years there will literally be hundreds of thousands of them,god help us!

johnathan woss

cavedave wrote: »

and remember Irish people for years were inbreeding probably at a rate of about 20%.

YOUR OWN LINK says that the ROI had a cosanguinity rate of 0.5% which is lower than most of the other European countries surveyed !

johnathan woss

Welease wrote: »

Actually 99% of the time I see the news it's a white non-traveller gang which are murdering people.. Are you trying to blame all the shootings in Dublin and Limerick on travellers? Check out youtube and look up Limerick Gangs.

Can we now stop all welfare benefits being given to white Irish non traveller people now?

Is this a joke post ?

I would love to read the crime statisitics for travellers but they're not published.
There have been a number of high-profile murders allegedly involving travellers in the last few months.
The Limerick drugs war involves settled traveller families does it not ?

Welease

johnathan woss wrote: »

Is this a joke post ?

I would love to read the crime statisitics for travellers but they're not published.
There have been a number of high-profile murders allegedly involving travellers in the last few months.
The Limerick drugs war involves settled traveller families does it not ?

And there have been numerous high profile murders that have not....

Care to provide any links?

SLUSK

johnathan woss wrote: »

Is this a joke post ?

I would love to read the crime statisitics for travellers but they're not published.
There have been a number of high-profile murders allegedly involving travellers in the last few months.
The Limerick drugs war involves settled traveller families does it not ?

If people were less PC and actually said what they think about travellers here on boards they would probably be banned by the mods.

Welease

SLUSK wrote: »

If people were less PC and actually said what they think about travellers here on boards they would probably be banned by the mods.

and if people actually had to back up their statements with facts.. their postcount will be approaching 0.

If its true and you can back it up then no mod can touch you.. go ahead...

johnathan woss

Welease wrote: »

And there have been numerous high profile murders that have not....

Care to provide any links?

Previously in this thread the traveller population (current) was quoted at 30,000 so I am honestly fearful to think about how much higher their per capita murder and violent crime rates are compared to the rest of the population.

Of course those crime statisitics aren't published.
It would be funny to see people like you try to justify them.

Welease

johnathan woss wrote: »

Previously in this thread the traveller population (current) was quoted at 30,000 so I am honestly fearful to think about how much higher their per capita murder and violent crime rates are compared to the rest of the population.

Of course those crime statisitics aren't published.
It would be funny to see people like you try to justify them.

Is that a roundabout way of admitting you have absolutely no facts or data to backup your arguement... ?

johnathan woss

Welease wrote: »

Is that a roundabout way of admitting you have absolutely no facts or data to backup your arguement... ?

Are you honestly suggesting that the traveller community does not have a higher per capita murder rate than the average population ?

It's hard to provide "links" because the media only mentions travellers when they absolutely have to.

Sand

Well, I dont think there are any direct stats but there are some that can be drawn from inference.

2002 a survey was done on the Traveller population in Ireland. By my reading the total population was given as 23,681 (total Irish pop was 3.9 million). 194 of these were recorded as being in Prison.

Per the Prison stats, in 2002, the average daily number of people in custody was 3,165.

So Travellers would have made up what? 0.5% or so of the Irish population but would have made up 6% or so of the prison population on an average day, over-represented by what, 12 times?

That travellers have bad press associated with unusually high levels of criminality is not the fault of others. Nor is it an excuse to give them cash because they choose to pursue a lifestyle which increases poverty, poor education, high unemplyment and poor health.

Welease

johnathan woss wrote: »

Are you honestly suggesting that the traveller community does not have a higher per capita murder rate than the average population ?

It's hard to provide "links" because the media only mentions travellers when they absolutely have to.

No, I am stating that neither I nor you are in a position to make such claims without any data. So I have not made any such claims.

You however, seem completely happy to make and stand behind wild claims without any access to such data, and when asked to produce any evidence.. can't.

" Commission for Racial Equality in the UK, counter that Travellers are a distinct ethnic group with an ancient history and claim that there is no statistical evidence that Traveller presence raises or lowers the local crime rate"

The ESRI said Irish travellers were ... ""... a uniquely disadvantaged group: impoverished, under-educated, often despised and ostracised, they live on the margins of Irish society"."

So who is making the joke posts? If you have any proof of your claims then please enlighten us.....

Welease

Sand wrote: »

That travellers have bad press associated with unusually high levels of criminality is not the fault of others. Nor is it an excuse to give them cash because they choose to pursue a lifestyle which increases poverty, poor education, high unemplyment and poor health.

Again, in your frenzy you seem to miss the simple point..

What cash are they getting that is not readily available to any other ethnic or social group within Ireland? Or are you demanding they should receive less because they come from a specific social group...

Sand

Again, in your frenzy you seem to miss the simple point..

What cash are they getting that is not readily available to any other ethnic or social group within Ireland? Or are you demanding they should receive less because they come from a specific social group...

What dont you want to talk about the stats?

As regards your question on the cash, have you read the OP? 130 million last year alone specifically for Traveller projects, in addition to the benefits "readily available to any other ethnic or social group within Ireland".

Flamed Diving

Sand, African-Americans have a disproportionate representation in American prisons.

What are your thoughts on that, with respect to your points above on Travellers?

Welease

Sand wrote: »

What dont you want to talk about the stats?

I am quite happy to talk about stats..

a) provide them
b) then provide information on why X amount of travellers breaking that law should stop ALL travellers getting the basic benefits the state provides...

That is what this thread is about... over to you...

julien05

that would be most afro americans live in poverty which makes them poor and likely to commit a crime against the country.

since 2002 State has paid out €1bn to Traveller projects, exclusive of other benefits : so what

Flamed Diving

julien05 wrote: »

that would be most afro americans live in poverty which makes them poor and likely to commit a crime against the country.

since 2002 State has paid out €1bn to Traveller projects, exclusive of other benefits : so what

Hi Sand, but since you said:

That travellers have bad press associated with unusually high levels of criminality is not the fault of others.

So whose fault is it exactly?

Sand

@Flamed Diving

Sand, African-Americans have a disproportionate representation in American prisons.

What are your thoughts on that, with respect to your points above on Travellers?

I suggest you start a thread about it, perhaps in a forum other than the Irish economy one.

Hi Sand, but since you said:

Hi, this is me. The poster you were responding to was julien05. Usernames are just there on the top left of the post.

Welease

Sand wrote: »

As regards your question on the cash, have you read the OP? 130 million last year alone specifically for Traveller projects, in addition to the benefits "readily available to any other ethnic or social group within Ireland".

oh god.. do i need to spell it out..

130 m specifically for traveller projects in addition to the basic welfare benefits....
Shock horror!!!!!!!, you do realise that every grant is in addition to the basic welfare benefits yes???????? so artist groups, rural communities, ethnic communities, womens groups, childrens groups, athletes, sports groups etc all received benefits apart from the basic welfare payments...

And yes, I read the OP, the only payments really called out were Education and Housing, which and I am willing to be corrected, are available to everyone (pending circumstances)..

So.. once again.. what exactly did travellers avail of that is not available to others within the community.. 130m was taken up by traveller programs.. Are you attemping to state that the rest of the country received 0???????
The bill for education and housing for non travellers probably ran into the billions......

BlaasForRafa

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Sand, African-Americans have a disproportionate representation in American prisons.

What are your thoughts on that, with respect to your points above on Travellers?

Are any of these Africa-Americans in American prisons getting money from projects subsidised by Irish taxpayers?