since 2002 State has paid out €1bn to Traveller projects (mod warning post 207)

MysticalRain

Welease wrote: »

They are not.. they are considered socially distinct..

In the UK they are considered ethnically distinct.

So how can they be considered to be "discriminated against" if being a traveler is merely a lifestyle choice?

irish_bob

Welease wrote: »

Actually no one with an ounce of sense would say that without having some facts to hand to prove the point.... you fail again...

ive been ripped off by tinkers financially , had my dog killed by tinkers , my mom has been harrassed by tinkers , ive never had any dealings with tinkers which were anything but negative , all theese scenarios are historical fact in my life and thats all i need to know or want to know for that matter

Welease

MysticalRain wrote: »

So how can they be considered to be "discriminated against" if being a traveler is merely a lifestyle choice?

eh?

Descrimination takes many forms.... race, age, sex, social grouping, colour, creed etc etc.

Under Irish law the travelling community has specific descrimation protection.
Actually I take that back.. I am not sure they have specific discrimation protection, as I remember they had certain affirmative action laws in place.. but i would need to check..

Welease

irish_bob wrote: »

ive been ripped off by tinkers financially , had my dog killed by tinkers , my mom has been harrassed by tinkers , ive never had any dealings with tinkers which were anything but negative , all theese scenarios are historical fact in my life and thats all i need to know or want to know for that matter

Thats awesome... and they were all Irish, so therefore all Irish are criminals..

And if thats all you wanted to know out of this thread, you could have stopped at the first post and saved yourself any education.. Ignorance is bliss...

tinofapples

Welease wrote: »

eh?

Descrimination takes many forms.... race, age, sex, social grouping, colour, creed etc etc.

Under Irish law the travelling community has specific descrimation protection.

What do they contribute to society ?? NOTHING only trouble in most cases.

irish_bob

MysticalRain wrote: »

I've never been able to figure out exactly how the hell Irish Travelers are ethically distinct from the main Irish population.

they are distinct in sofar as they are the quientesential sacred cows of the liberal left , everyone knows its some pc lefty org which came up with the notion that they are a distinct ethnic group

cavedave

tinofapples

It's well overdue time that the government cut these leaches outta society.

Calling human beings parasites and asking that they be cut out of society is seriously not cool.

Adolf Hitler in Mein Kampf refers several times to the Jews as bloodsucking parasites like leeches and vampires.

Sorry for invoking Godwin's law here but post number 9 seemed to advocate sterilisation this thread is decidedly scary.

*tinofapples has corrected me in that he is not gone off the ranch on a eugenics buzz.

irish_bob

Welease wrote: »

Thats awesome... and they were all Irish, so therefore all Irish are criminals..

And if thats all you wanted to know out of this thread, you could have stopped at the first post and saved yourself any education.. Ignorance is bliss...

give me ignorant anyday over smug right on liberal

tinofapples

cavedave wrote: »

Calling human beings parasites and asking that they be cut out of society is seriously not cool.

cavedave, I'm not suggesting doing anything to any members of society other than let them contribute like we are all suppossed to.

Welease

irish_bob wrote: »

give me ignorant anyday over smug right on liberal

I'm not a smug right on liberal.. I am happy to cut the social benefits of the vast majority of this country.. however, I want the cuts equally and will not pick on a social group in Ireland based on zero (0) data...

Can you provide that data?

Every crime done to me has been done by white Irish settled community...

Welease

tinofapples wrote: »

What do they contribute to society ?? NOTHING only trouble in most cases.

So show me one statistic that backs that up, and I will glady agree........

(and once we are there, I will also gladly agree that you also remove the social welfare from any other members of society that break the law)...

Ball in your court....

Welease

irish_bob wrote: »

they are distinct in sofar as they are the quientesential sacred cows of the liberal left , everyone knows its some pc lefty org which came up with the notion that they are a distinct ethnic group

Actually as mentioned several times they are a social group not an ethnic group.. they are considered an ethnic group in the UK... but hey its only facts

MysticalRain

Welease wrote: »

eh?

Descrimination takes many forms.... race, age, sex, social grouping, colour, creed etc etc.

Lifestyle choice isn't one of them.

Under Irish law the travelling community has specific descrimation protection.
Actually I take that back.. I am not sure they have specific discrimation protection, as I remember they had certain affirmative action laws in place.. but i would need to check..

I'm all for treating people with equality, but throwing money at a group of people just because they like to lead a nomadic lifestyle is a step too far for me.

MysticalRain

irish_bob wrote: »

they are distinct in sofar as they are the quientesential sacred cows of the liberal left , everyone knows its some pc lefty org which came up with the notion that they are a distinct ethnic group

Well I'm left-wing in many ways, especially when it comes to social issues. But I would be the first one to admit that this is ridiculous.

Welease

MysticalRain wrote: »

Lifestyle choice isn't one of them.


I'm all for treating people with equality, but throwing money at a group of people just because they like to lead a nomadic lifestyle is a step too far for me.

This is what i don't underdstand what people don't understand.. so please education an old brain

They are not getting anything that is not available to other social/ethnic groups within Ireland..

Those who are unemployed are being offered housing - APPLIES TO ALL SOCIAL GROUPS
They are being offered specialist education - APPLIES TO ALL SOCIAL GROUPS.

What are they getting that is different that most people want to cut?

Edit - And to re-iterate for the peanut gallery in here.. I am not some (whatever it was) soft liberal leftie.. I would cut minimum wage, social welfare and benefits, PS/Government pay and benefits DRASTICALLY across the board in this country, but I cannot fathom this particular attack on one segment of society who gain nothing more than the minimum afforded to everyone else, and I am still waiting for a single reasonable justifable arguement to do so.

Flamed Diving

Welease wrote: »

They are not.. they are considered socially distinct..

In the UK they are considered ethnically distinct.

I would consider them an ethno-linguistic group, on account of their culture and distinct Shelta language.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethno-linguistic_group

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shelta_language

tinofapples

Welease wrote: »

So show me one statistic that backs that up, and I will glady agree........

(and once we are there, I will also gladly agree that you also remove the social welfare from any other members of society that break the law)...

Ball in your court....

Go looking for statistics if it will please you...... I live in the real world, everyday experience of Travellers in community. And let me tell you ......... way too many personal experiences to mention.

Flamed Diving

tinofapples wrote: »

Go looking for statistics if it will please you...... I live in the real world, everyday experience of Travellers in community. And let me tell you ......... way too many personal experiences to mention.

Yeah, your personal anecdotes are far more telling than national statistics backed up by centuries of statistical theory and analysis.

Tell us a tale, oh wise sage!

MysticalRain

Welease wrote: »

This is what i don't underdstand what people don't understand.. so please education an old brain

They are not getting anything that is not available to other social/ethnic groups within Ireland..

Those who are unemployed are being offered housing - APPLIES TO ALL SOCIAL GROUPS
They are being offered specialist education - APPLIES TO ALL SOCIAL GROUPS.

What are they getting that is different that most people want to cut?

Edit - And to re-iterate for the peanut gallery in here.. I am not some (whatever it was) soft liberal leftie.. I would cut minimum wage, social welfare and benefits, PS/Government pay and benefits DRASTICALLY across the board in this country, but I cannot fathom this particular attack on one segment of society who gain nothing more than the minimum afforded to everyone else, and I am still waiting for a single reasonable justifable arguement to do so.

Free halting sites to park their caravans springs to mind. If I decided to spend half the year on the road, I would be laughed out of it if I asked the state to provide free accommodation along the way.

As far as I'm aware, the only people who are entitled to a free €400,000 house are single mothers. Of course it could be argued that should not be a right either. I personally don't agree that any social group should be entitled to those kinds of benefits. Either way, the state cannot afford it.

They are pretty much exempt from normal standards of civil society, like paying tax for instance. Again, that applies to plenty of other social groups. It doesn't make it any less wrong.

Welease

tinofapples wrote: »

Go looking for statistics if it will please you...... I live in the real world, everyday experience of Travellers in community. And let me tell you ......... way too many personal experiences to mention.

LOL

You have no stats, you have no idea... welcome to the real world.....

94% of criminals in prison (in 2002) were non travellers... can we cut all specialist welfare to white Irish folks???????? thats a fact... yet you want to discrimatate against 30,000 people based on 194 in prison based on the only facts available...

In the real world, if you want to be taken seriously, you provide some facts or insightfil opinion.. you supply nothing but the usual biggotry.

Welease

MysticalRain wrote: »

Free halting sites to park their caravans springs to mind. If I decided to spend half the year on the road, I would be laughed out of it if I asked the state to provide free accommodation along the way.

Halting sites cost a lot less than 3-4 bed houses which we give "settled" unemployed... Why are unemployed travellers not allow to claim housing available to others in your eyes?

Edit - they pay the council for halting sites....

MysticalRain wrote: »

As far as I'm aware, the only people who are entitled to a free €400,000 house are single mothers. Of course it could be argued that should not be a right either. I personally don't agree that any social group should be entitled to those kinds of benefits. Either way, the state cannot afford it.

I think everyone has a problem with overpriced housing... single mothers get it, others get it, why demonise travellers because Ennis CC can't build a basic house for less than what a mansion costs to build? If thats what they spent for travellers, thats probably what they spend for every other welfare receipient...

MysticalRain wrote: »

They are pretty much exempt from normal standards of civil society, like paying tax for instance. Again, that applies to plenty of other social groups. It doesn't make it any less wrong.

Again, rubbish.. they pay taxes the same as everyone else once in employment.. there are 25% employed (according to the travellers association) and they pay normal PAYE and PRSI rates.. the unemployed get the same benefits as everyone else... absolutely no difference or preference.

You seem to be agrieved that they get the exact same rights as everyone else..... In fact, you list out the reasons why you dislike travellers and each and every point was in fact wrong..
How would you feel to be treated like that? Other posters have closed minds, and stated that the incorrect facts are all they need to know.... amazing....

maxximus

cavedave wrote: »

Calling human beings parasites and asking that they be cut out of society is seriously not cool.

Adolf Hitler in Mein Kampf refers several times to the Jews as bloodsucking parasites like leeches and vampires.

Sorry for invoking Godwin's law here but post number 9 seemed to advocate sterilisation this thread is decidedly scary.

*tinofapples has corrected me in that he is not gone off the ranch on a eugenics buzz.

:mad: retract that , I did not advocate sterisation of anyone , I merely stated thats what happened in Canada. I have an edge in speaking on this issue as my work brings me in contact with many of this group of people.
I merely stated that there is a huge population explosion in the travelling community, and this will lead to the problems i mention earlier in the thread.

There are issues outstanding in this area and our incompetent politicians refuse to listen and will wait for the horse to bolt as per fkin usual. :mad:

MysticalRain

Welease wrote: »

Halting sites cost a lot less than 3-4 bed houses which we give "settled" unemployed... Why are unemployed travellers not allow to claim housing available to others in your eyes?

Edit - they pay the council for halting sites....


I think everyone has a problem with overpriced housing... single mothers get it, others get it, why demonise travellers because Ennis CC can't build a basic house for less than what a mansion costs to build? If thats what they spent for travellers, thats probably what they spend for every other welfare receipient...

If they are unemployed Irish citizen, sure. But they shouldn't be given a house just simply for their lifestyle choice. I also don't believe it's "demonizing" travellers to take issue with giving people free houses for dubious reasons. That applies to anyone.

Again, rubbish.. they pay taxes the same as everyone else once in employment.. there are 25% employed (according to the travellers association) and they pay normal PAYE and PRSI rates.. the unemployed get the same benefits as everyone else... absolutely no difference or preference.

You seem to be agrieved that they get the exact same rights as everyone else..... In fact, you list out the reasons why you dislike travellers and each and every point was in fact wrong..
How would you feel to be treated like that? Other posters have closed minds, and stated that the incorrect facts are all they need to know.... amazing....

High unemployment is an inevitable consequence of their lifestyle choice. It's just simply not correct to state that they pay the same levels of tax as the settled community. Are you honestly trying to claim that they do? Don't be so naïve. I'm not singling out travelers here. There are plenty of unemployed people who fiddle the dole as well. The difference is people get offended when you apply the same standard to the traveller community as you do with a settled community.

I never said I "dislike" travellers. I find it highly offensive that you cannot have a rational conversation about travelers without the PC brigade flinging about accusations against anybody who questions the sacred cow of the traveler lifestyle.

Welease

MysticalRain wrote: »

If they are unemployed Irish citizen, sure. But they shouldn't be given a house just simply for their lifestyle choice. I also don't believe it's "demonizing" travellers to take issue with giving people free houses for dubious reasons. That applies to anyone.

What is it with this mantra of lifestyle choices? If they are availing of a house, they are not making a lifestyle choice to travel..they are availing of the same rights available to everyone else and settle in a welfare provided house on which they pay the same rent as everyone else.

MysticalRain wrote: »

High unemployment is an inevitable consequence of their lifestyle choice. It's just simply not correct to state that they pay the same levels of tax as the settled community. Are you honestly trying to claim that they do? Don't be so naïve. I'm not singling out travelers here. There are plenty of unemployed people who fiddle the dole as well. The difference is people get offended when you apply the same standard to the traveller community as you do with a settled community.

Well actually, the ERSI among many other disagree with you... the primary reason for unemployment is apparently down to discrimination...
And actually the difference here is.. people want to apply different standards to the travelling community.. re-read the initial posts.. the travelling community get grants (people compain).. which are available to other communities in Ireland (people ignore).. hell we paid 50% more (191 m) for the Aviva stadium this year...

MysticalRain wrote: »

I never said I "dislike" travellers. I find it highly offensive that you cannot have a rational conversation about travelers without the PC brigade flinging about accusations against anybody who questions the sacred cow of the traveler lifestyle.

I am not the PC brigade.. I couldn't give a flyiong f**k about them, but I will ask you to provide facts for each and every ascertion you will make.. I don't claim to represent or even understand the travelling community and have probably been more biased than others against them in the past... but lets discuss this using facts and facts alone not personal insults or bigotry..

Edit - Actually i apologise, you never stated you dislike travellers... My points were based on the fact you seem to regurgitate the same biggoted incorrect facts without attempting to question their validity .. my bad.. (but please check facts )

imme

maxximus wrote: »

It is estimated that the number of travellers in ireland will increase 10 fold in the next 30 years , that is the problem facing the country , whereby what was paid out over the last 10 years will pale into insignificance compared to future costs.

'it is estimated' that hell will freeze over one day. see I can say anything I like once I say it is estimated. Now PLEASE can you provide a source for this estimation or I'll be forced to think you're making it up. :eek::eek::eek:

imme

"€115 million alone in 2003 on nursing home subventions, increases in carers' payments, and the cost of home helps"

the source for this quote in relation to older people in Ireland is the Jesuit Centre for Faith & Justice. Because old people costing us so much, why don't we just shoot them all.

Shryke

imme wrote: »

"€115 million alone in 2003 on nursing home subventions, increases in carers' payments, and the cost of home helps"

the source for this quote in relation to older people in Ireland is the Jesuit Centre for Faith & Justice. Because old people costing us so much, why don't we just shoot them all.

Travelers live the way they live out of choice. I don't care what you blame the reason for that on and I don't care.
People don't choose to be old. Your argument is retarded.

Flamed Diving

Shryke wrote: »

Travelers live the way they live out of choice. I don't care what you blame the reason for that on and I don't care.
People don't choose to be old. Your argument is retarded.

You're right. Painters chose to be creative artists, and people choosing to be travellers is much the same choice. Isn't life so simple to break down?

MysticalRain

Welease wrote: »

What is it with this mantra of lifestyle choices? If they are availing of a house, they are not making a lifestyle choice to travel..they are availing of the same rights available to everyone else and settle in a welfare provided house on which they pay the same rent as everyone else.

The traveler lifestyle is a choice. Choosing to live a nomadic lifestyle on the margins of society is a choice by any definition of the word. It would be a different matter entirely if Travellers were a distinct ethnic group. Roma or Gypsies cannot change their ethnic heritage.

Well actually, the ERSI among many other disagree with you... the primary reason for unemployment is apparently down to discrimination...
And actually the difference here is.. people want to apply different standards to the travelling community.. re-read the initial posts.. the travelling community get grants (people compain).. which are available to other communities in Ireland (people ignore).. hell we paid 50% more (191 m) for the Aviva stadium this year...

I don't doubt for one second that there isn't some discrimination against Travelers. But the fact is anybody who does not have a fixed abode will find it difficult to find employment. Most traveler children do not complete secondary school. That makes entire generations of Travellers unemployable. Again, that's no fault of the settled community. That's just shortsightedness on the part of traveler parents.

I understand also that many settled Travellers happen to live in bad areas and are discriminated because of that. But that's no different to the obstacles that any working class person from Sheriff St might face. Plenty of foreigners in this country also face discrimination. Yet the vast majority of them can somehow find employment. If they are uneducated, they can always work on a building site and probably earn more than many people with degrees.

I am not the PC brigade.. I couldn't give a flyiong f**k about them, but I will ask you to provide facts for each and every ascertion you will make.. I don't claim to represent or even understand the travelling community and have probably been more biased than others against them in the past... but lets discuss this using facts and facts alone not personal insults or bigotry..

I simply called you out on that because judging by your posts, you were acting like a member of the PC brigade.

Sand

@Flamed Diving

Yeah, your personal anecdotes are far more telling than national statistics backed up by centuries of statistical theory and analysis.

Tell us a tale, oh wise sage!

Maybe its according to what hes been hearing?