since 2002 State has paid out €1bn to Traveller projects (mod warning post 207)

Welease

irish_bob wrote: »

because i cant provide evidence ( from some goverment org or other ) that tinkers killed my dog , ripped me off with a fraudelent service , harrassed my mother , its therefore untrue and without merrit and the tinkers who committed all theese acts are roaringly splendid fine fellows , cute trick you have there

WOW one would be forgiven for assuming those who post on a political board would have the basic intelligence required to follow simple logic.. Let me spell it out for you..

No one challenged or disagrees that those things happened to you... clear?

But that is never considered enough to stop all the benefits available to a specific social group.. that is considered discrimination.

EVERY traveller did not kill your dog etc..... Therefore every traveller cannot be punished for those crimes... simple enough?

To use the stats on this very thread.. 94% of prisoners come from the settled comminity.. Thats a 19:1 ratio, but I don't see you calling for all benefits to be removed from white Irish settled people.

Taxipete29

Welease wrote: »

WOW one would be forgiven for assuming those who post on a political board would have the basic intelligence required to follow simple logic.. Let me spell it out for you..

No one challenged or disagrees that those things happened to you... clear?

But that is never considered enough to stop all the benefits available to a specific social group.. that is considered discrimination.

EVERY traveller did not kill your dog etc..... Therefore every traveller cannot be punished for those crimes... simple enough?

To use the stats on this very thread.. 94% of prisoners come from the settled comminity.. Thats a 19:1 ratio, but I don't see you calling for all benefits to be removed from white Irish settled people.

Welease, you will find that Irish_Bob is a serial post-thanker who has little or no independant thought and usually just follows the crowd on whatever issue they happen to be bleating on about. This week its travellers, next week it will be something else.

imme

Tha Gopher wrote: »

If they are making a far fetched allegation, certainly. If someone claiming travellers have a high unemployment and criminality rate without giving a figure it should be taken at face value given how obvious it is from their conduct in society. Most travellers dont work. Travellers are proportionately more prone to criminality than the rest of the Irish population. Stats exist to show this, as posted earlier in the thread. And I refuse to believe that if you live in Ireland you would not know this.

you were using specific percentages to highlight a point, I said you should show the source, now you tell me you made up the percentage to prove point. Can you be trusted with any other points you're making as to their veracity.
Please Please Please give your source for the highlighted piece in your response above, Please.

Welease

AlekSmart wrote: »

Whilst I accept your quest for "Statistics" in matters Traveller,you have to also consider the widespread reluctance of the Travelling community to actively co-operate with the gathering and collation of those vitally important statistics.

I fear Welease is to forever wander the roads of Ireland,like some modern day Raftery, seeking the elusive statistics he/she so desires.

I contend that the Traveller community will do as much,if not more to frustrate that search as any of the so-called Racist and Discriminatory posters on this thread.

As for the eventual statistics which do appear in the public arena....

It is a difficult task for many reasons for Gardai to collate any meaningful stats on Traveller lawlessness,as the Gardai themselves are top of the list of groups which traditional Traveller culture will completely exclude,often with extreme vigour.

Snipped for brevity

I agree 100% with your post and the sentiments within

My point in asking for statistics is simple..

If people are going to make definitive statements like "Travellers pay no taxes", "The majority of travellers are criminals" etc. to justify the removal of benefits (which is what is essentially being proposed here).. then logic would dictate those people have access to data in oder to make those definitive statements.

We all know that no such data exists to support "Travellers pay no taxes" or "The majority of travellers are criminal" in fact the scant evidence that does exists points to the contrary.

Given the lack of any data to support the belief here's, once could suggest that the removal of benefits from a specific social group would amount to nothing more than discrimination.

By all means remove benefit from those not seeking to work (which can be proven), from those who engage in criminal behavior (which can be proven), from those who are not entitled to benefits being claimed (which can be proven).. etc etc etc.. but do not attempt to the blanket removal of benefits from a specific social group to the detriment of those who are 100% legal, honest citizens who happen to be born into a different social group from you or I.

That remains, the one and only point I wish (and will continue) to make

the_syco

Welease wrote: »

Agreed. Hence the money spent on education to help break the cycle.. We can spend it for disabled, religious groups etc.. whats the issue with spending it on the travelling community?.. especially is the unemployment levels have dropped from 95 to 75%?
But don't try and dismiss the descriminination... look at the responses in this post.. that is sadly representative across Ireland.. The vast majority of people in Ireland will not employ someone from the travelling comminity.

You'd need a special teacher in ervery school teaching only the travellers. If a settled family moves to an area, they must apply for a place, and usually some time is spent getting that child up to speed with the rest of their year. This may happen only once in a blue moon. With travellers, this is a regular occurance. Thus, the wall that stops many travellers from getting an education is their way of life. Disabled, religious groups etc are given money, and they get good education, as they stay in one place, and make progress. Most travellers end up with a sh|t education because after switching schools so many times, they don't have a clear education path. The only way they could get any sort of education would be for the travellers to get an open university type of education whereby they log in remotely attend virtual classrooms, and do monthly exams in set locations thoughout the country.

Welease wrote: »

Yet your issue is with them obtaining social housing to be settled? I honesly don't undertand.. you complain about them travelling and you complain about them being settled.

The problem is that they expect a free house purely because they are travellers. No other reason. Single mums go on a waiting list, and get a house when one becomes available. Travellers want houses that are not in estates near other travellers.

=-=

For the record, I liked travellers of old. They'd come, work in the locality, rent skips and keep the site clean. The new generation of **** have ensured that no traveller will ever be welcome in my home town ever again. They destory their sites, and camp illegaly on private land that they do not own.

=-=

Oh, and you seem to like sources. Give the source that 25% or travllers were employed.

Welease

the_syco wrote: »

You'd need a special teacher in ervery school teaching only the travellers. If a settled family moves to an area, they must apply for a place, and usually some time is spent getting that child up to speed with the rest of their year. This may happen only once in a blue moon. With travellers, this is a regular occurance. Thus, the wall that stops many travellers from getting an education is their way of life. Disabled, religious groups etc are given money, and they get good education, as they stay in one place, and make progress. Most travellers end up with a sh|t education because after switching schools so many times, they don't have a clear education path. The only way they could get any sort of education would be for the travellers to get an open university type of education whereby they log in remotely attend virtual classrooms, and do monthly exams in set locations thoughout the country.


The problem is that they expect a free house purely because they are travellers. No other reason. Single mums go on a waiting list, and get a house when one becomes available. Travellers want houses that are not in estates near other travellers.

=-=

For the record, I liked travellers of old. They'd come, work in the locality, rent skips and keep the site clean. The new generation of **** have ensured that no traveller will ever be welcome in my home town ever again. They destory their sites, and camp illegaly on private land that they do not own.

=-=

Oh, and you seem to like sources. Give the source that 25% or travllers were employed.

In a rush... will respond more fully later...

http://www.cso.ie/census/documents/vol8_press.pdf

Unemployment was given at 73% for males in the 2002 census...And as I said, a few days ago on Newstalk a traveller spokesperson was bieng interviewed and set the level at 75% unemployment.. I'm sure they are plenty of other sources available should you wish to google them.

the_syco

Welease wrote: »

I'm sure they are plenty of other sources available should you wish to google them.

I googled for recent crime and employment stats for about an hour. No luck May be looking in the wrong places, or using the wrong google words.

Flamed Diving

Compared to our OECD friends, Ireland's social data is appallingly sparse. And where it does exist, it is held under lock and key by the likes of the ESRI.

Flamed Diving

This looked promising, but none of the ****ing links work:

http://www.dcu.ie/imrstr/firstissue/index.shtml

Flamed Diving

Ok, found a 2003 study here:

http://www.nccri.ie/pdf/ireland_case_study2.pdf

has a section on employment, etc.

Damn, I'm good.

Flamed Diving

One more related article:

http://www.dcu.ie/imrstr/volume1issue2/volume1issue2-6.pdf

Welease

the_syco wrote: »

I googled for recent crime and employment stats for about an hour. No luck May be looking in the wrong places, or using the wrong google words.

Yet (and I don't want this to sound overly harsh) you will come on here and backup (and thank!!) posters who say travellers pay no taxes and I am living on a different planet for suggesting so, without have one single shred of evidence to support that claim, and you want to be taken seriously?

The facts are freely available for those who actually make the effort to educate themselves."Irish Traveller unemployment rates" bring up about 10 pages of links in google...

From the 2002 census...

Males in labour force - 4751
Employer or own account worker - 235
Employee - 1019
Assisting Relative - 10
Looking for first job - 518
Unemployed - 2,969

Similar data is available for women..

http://www.wicklow.ie/Apps/WicklowBeta/Publications/CommEnterprise/Socio-Economic/Chapters/Chapter%209.pdf
http://www.paveepoint.ie/pdf/StrategicPlan06-10.pdf
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/1125/breaking74.htm
http://www.galway.ie/en/Services/CommunityEnterprise/SocialInclusion/SocialInclusionStrategy/TheFile,4914,en.pdf
http://www.itmtrav.ie/publications/cerd_report.html

I could go on and on and on

So given you were in fact completely wrong about the tax paying situation which seems to be the general thrust of the arguement, do you concede that it is unfair to enforce a blanket removal of welfare for all travellers given that a significant percentage do actually pay taxes in this country (i.e. the basis of your arguement is seriously flawed)?....

irish_bob

Welease wrote: »

WOW one would be forgiven for assuming those who post on a political board would have the basic intelligence required to follow simple logic.. Let me spell it out for you..

No one challenged or disagrees that those things happened to you... clear?

But that is never considered enough to stop all the benefits available to a specific social group.. that is considered discrimination.

EVERY traveller did not kill your dog etc..... Therefore every traveller cannot be punished for those crimes... simple enough?

To use the stats on this very thread.. 94% of prisoners come from the settled comminity.. Thats a 19:1 ratio, but I don't see you calling for all benefits to be removed from white Irish settled people.

anyone who knows anything about tinkers knows that they are renowned for stealing and poisioning dogs

irish_bob

Taxipete29 wrote: »

Welease, you will find that Irish_Bob is a serial post-thanker who has little or no independant thought and usually just follows the crowd on whatever issue they happen to be bleating on about. This week its travellers, next week it will be something else.

nice

Flamed Diving

irish_bob wrote: »

anyone who knows anything about tinkers knows that they are renowned for stealing and poisioning dogs

I hear they boil newts and fly around on broomsticks.

Tha Gopher

irish_bob wrote: »

its only from this site that i learned that the feuding families in limerick are tinkers , not once have i ever heard it mentioned in the broadcast media ,

Read it in one of the books myself that the Mc Carthy Dundon faction are a traveller clan. Dont think the rest are.

imme wrote: »

you were using specific percentages to highlight a point, I said you should show the source, now you tell me you made up the percentage to prove point. Can you be trusted with any other points you're making as to their veracity.
Please Please Please give your source for the highlighted piece in your response above, Please.

An Indo article from ages back was the 88% figure. Which, it seems, may have been incorrect. It was 95%

Welease has still failed to come up with this Garda report or acknowledge the post about it, which leads me to suspect he may be telling porkies as to its existance.

Tha Gopher

Welease wrote: »

Males in labour force - 4751
Employer or own account worker - 235
Employee - 1019
Assisting Relative - 10
Looking for first job - 518
Unemployed - 2,969


..

Re read that mate- of 4751 men of working age (i.e labour force capable) only 1200 were an employee or self employed. And Id imagine at least some of them were employed on work for welfare schemes.

the_syco

Welease wrote: »

without have one single shred of evidence to support that claim, and you want to be taken seriously?

Hrmph! Right back at you :P

Welease wrote: »

From the 2002 census...

2002. So? One thing I've learnt is stats from 8 years ago are pretty much useless. Thus I don't count them.

Welease wrote: »

Males in labour force - 4751

So, after the crash and everyone being laid off. If the census is anything to go by, under 2000 travellers would be those still working. 4000 or so would join the other 4000 or so unemployed.

Oh, and none of it says if any of them paid any tax.

Welease wrote: »

do you concede that it is unfair to enforce a blanket removal of welfare for all travellers

Yes and no. The settled ones (houses, legal halting sites, etc), I have no problem with. The rest, yup, I have a problem with them getting any payment what so ever. Why? Because over the past 15 years every single traveller I've seen are scum. There was a time that travellers came, were clean, worked hard, and travelled. Now, they illegally trespass, litter, and expect us to pay for them? On top of paying to evict them from their place of illegal trespass and cleaning up their mess when they're moved? As for not enough places, that's debateable. There's a large difference between not enough places, and not moving to a certain estate/halting site as there's a family there that they don't like. Also, I disagree with them expecting the state to pay for the procurement of electricity and waterwhere ever they decide to set up camp.

Single mothers, if given a house, will sometimes take it, knowing that the next house may not be available for several months. Travellers expect you to give them a halting site where there are no families that they have a feud with.

Taxipete29

Flamed Diving wrote: »

I hear they boil newts and fly around on broomsticks.

Thats a country myth. It was just that one Traveller and it was a magic carpet not a broomstick.

Seriously though this thread has just got ridiculous. Everyone knows there are bad apples in the Travelling community and probably more than other communities. Changing the way a whole section of society, thinks, lives and works is no easy task. It takes alot of dedicated work by people within and outside of that community.

If I came in here and said Nigerians are all scam artists I would be lynched. It seems ok to say Travellers are theives and dog killers though. The hypocracy by so-called intelligent people is unreal.

In 5 years driving a Taxi I had my fair share of Travellers in the car. I can honestly say I had more trouble from people who lived in the leafy suburbs than I did from Travellers . Respect people and the majority of them will respect you back.

Amalgam

We lived beside a family in the 70's and early 80's and never had a spot of bother from them, place was clean. I can't help but think it is generational, along with the rise in the 'welfare web', that cocoons people (everyone, not just Travellers) from their own ignorance and stupidity.

Welease

Tha Gopher wrote: »

Read it in one of the books myself that the Mc Carthy Dundon faction are a traveller clan. Dont think the rest are.



An Indo article from ages back was the 88% figure. Which, it seems, may have been incorrect. It was 95%

Welease has still failed to come up with this Garda report or acknowledge the post about it, which leads me to suspect he may be telling porkies as to its existance.

I missed the post whereby I was asked to provide such evidence..

Lol this place never fails to crack me up.. I am the only one here citing sources and providing information that can be backed up.. The vast majority of other posters here have not provided a single shred of evidence, not does anyone seem to care.. Yet, I am the one accused of telling porkies.. /golfclap

If you care to search for the "Commission for Itinerancy" you can choose from literally hundred of sites hosting information on the report...

If you want to order copies the ISBN: 9919001826 9919001826


The information (while old) is cited in Liberal Rule though non Liberel means: the attempted settlement of Irish travellers (1955 - 1975)
http://www.ucd.ie/gsi/pdf/38-2/travel.pdf
Of particular importance is the language used to discriminate against the travelling community.. It was those beliefs, and the statistical data from 2002 (along with the ERSI studies in 1985 etc) they led to the affermative actions programs in place since 2002.

You are of course encouraged to provide any information yourself to backup your claims..

Welease

Tha Gopher wrote: »

Re read that mate- of 4751 men of working age (i.e labour force capable) only 1200 were an employee or self employed. And Id imagine at least some of them were employed on work for welfare schemes.

Fine.. I never claimed otherwise..

The information is to counter the rediculous belief in here that travellers pay 0 tax.. I have proven at the time this funding in question started (2002), not all travellers were on welfare and a significant proportion of them were in paid employment.

Those making the 0 tax claim are welcome to provide their own statistical evidence.

Welease

the_syco wrote: »

2002. So? One thing I've learnt is stats from 8 years ago are pretty much useless. Thus I don't count them.

lol you are really sinking now...

You do realise this thread has '02 in the title and is about welfare schemes developed from 2002 to 2009.. So in fact, this information is extremely relevant as it forms the reason for why those scheme's actually exist.... Try to keep up.

Again, you are welcome to provide ANY information to backup the claims you make.. I note you still haven't provided a single one...

the_syco wrote: »

So, after the crash and everyone being laid off. If the census is anything to go by, under 2000 travellers would be those still working. 4000 or so would join the other 4000 or so unemployed.

Oh, and none of it says if any of them paid any tax.

No it doesn't.. All of their employers could be crooked and pocketing the tax... However, in all likelyhood the tax is being paid.. I have provided enough information to refute your idiotic claims, yet again you are making claims without providing a single data point.

How about put up or shut up?.. Come back with statistics to back up your ascertains or stop wasting everyone's time here..

the_syco wrote: »

Yes and no. The settled ones (houses, legal halting sites, etc), I have no problem with. The rest, yup, I have a problem with them getting any payment what so ever. Why? Because over the past 15 years every single traveller I've seen are scum.

<drivel>

How many have you seen and interacted with???? The are a small number of travellers in each county.. Have you met and interacted with them all personally?.. I bet given you hate them all so much, you have probably not interacted with more than a handful..

Again, provide some data to backup your claims or stop wasting everyones time.....

the_syco

Welease wrote: »

How many have you seen and interacted with???? The are a small number of travellers in each county.. Have you met and interacted with them all personally?.. I bet given you hate them all so much, you have probably not interacted with more than a handful..

There used to be a group of travellers called the Castletown Travellers. They were called that as they would often camp on the same spot of land each summer on or near the grounds of Castletown House. I last saw them about 15 years ago. They said they wouldn't come back since the traveller scum that were littering the Leixlip Spa were causing agro against them from the locals. When they did come, people could walk through their encampment without fear (they would be in a carpark that led to a walk-way by the canal), and you could stop and have a natter with them. When the traveller scum started camping at the carpark next to the Leixlip Spa, I felt threatened, and stopped going there. More recently, whilst working in Vue cinema, I got to know some settled travellers. Out of 15, only one would pay his way in. Myself and the security staff knew what halting site they were from, and they made no secret of it. Strangly, we never had the same problem from any of the local people that lived in houses.

=-=

I'll get that data you wanted in a while. Also, I found it odd that they distinguish between travellers being employed, and travellers working as labour.

Welease

the_syco wrote: »

I'll get that data you wanted in a while.

Yeah, come back when you actually have a point and corresponding data to back it up....

sceptre

Hey, how are you all doing.

First thing. This is the Irish Economy & Budget 2010 forum. Not the Cuckoo's Nest. Bear that in mind when posting. There are very particular standards required here. There's even a forum charter which I'd recommend all of you read, even if it's your first time reading it.

Secondly, repeatedly posting anecdotes to drive home your point tends to be useless here. An anecdote isn't evidence. Especially when talking about a group of people. Any group. Actually it's nowhere near evidence and mostly makes you look like an idiot if you think it is.

Thirdly, making comments about people painting barn doors and not doing it properly (and similar posts) was half funny in that episode of the Simpsons featuring a fight between Abe and Chester J Lampwick but is less than useless here. See point 2. They add nothing useful to the discussion and actually detract from it. Really, this is just making me ignore swathes of comments from particular people as I quickly read through the thread. Please post smarter. Being blunt, stop wasting Internet space and valuable electrons and think about what you're posting.

Fourthly, you guys are getting more personal as the points from some of you lose even more relevance and coherency. Kindly stop that.

Fifthly, quick reminder of point 1. This is the Irish Economy & Budget 2010 forum, a subforum of the Politics section, not wah wah open season. Please bear that in mind. The readers expect better. The moderators expect better. As contributors you should also expect and provide better.

If any of you can't bear all of the above in mind, kindly find another forum to warble on. If you need your brush to be overly wide, get a blog.

If you can bear all of the above in mind, feel free to make the next post on this thread.

Very much a moderator post, kindly read carefully.

the_syco

sceptre wrote: »

Fifthly, quick reminder of point 1. This is the Irish Economy & Budget 2010 forum, a subforum of the Politics section, not wah wah open season. Please bear that in mind. The readers expect better. The moderators expect better. As contributors you should also expect and provide better.

I'm astonished it hasn't been moved to AH yet. Usually all traveller threads get moved there after a day or two from Politics and other forums. Finally, this is the most, um, civil (?) traveller thread that has been around lately (usually it goes downhill after 5 posts) which I believe is due to it being in the Politics section.

sceptre

the_syco wrote: »

I'm astonished it hasn't been moved to AH yet. Usually all traveller threads get moved there after a day or two from Politics and other forums. Finally, this is the most, um, civil (?) traveller thread that has been around lately (usually it goes downhill after 5 posts) which I believe is due to it being in the Politics section.

I'll happily take such comments (good or ill) on moderation by PM:) (charter specified)

The thread (this one, dear reader) will happily take an on-topic post for the thread.

AlekSmart

I hear they boil newts and fly around on broomsticks.

Flamed Diving is most likely referring to the "Old School" Traveller community.

The Celic Tiger Traveller has moved on to far more chemically efficient means of transport.......

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/feuding-dealer-found-gunned-down--in-ditch-2007213.html

and from that.....

Detectives had raided the Joyce gang on a number of occasions since 2007.

During one raid, detectives found a cocaine-mixing plant with quantities of the drug valued at €1.5m, as well as mixing agents, weighing scales and blenders. In another raid, cocaine valued at €75,000 and ammunition were discovered. The CAB had investigated both Thomas Joyce and his brother John Paul.

The High Court heard how Thomas Joyce had paid €70,000 in cash as part-payment for a Range Rover sports model at the age of 19. He also owned a BMW car.

In February 2008, officers from the CAB raided their halting site, where they found €3,000 worth of cocaine.