Schengen agreements and free movement within the EU

Lockstep

Am browsing through the ideas of free movement within the EU and those of the Schengen agreement.
I'm finding the concepts a bit strange; on the one hand, Irish citizens, as EU citizens seem to have free movement within the EU. That said, we're not members of the Schengen agreement and therefore should still have border controls.


Anyone able to expalin the two terms properly to me?

WooPeeA

Not really. Schengen agreement is not about your citizenship but the place where you are.

Countries that are members of Schengen zone agreed to remove border controls between them for everyone who's willing to cross them.

It doesn't make those countries not safe. Schengen states agreed also to cooperate with each other on security, intelligence and terrorism issues very closely. They also participate in several security and information exchange projects together.

Ireland is out of that agreement so everyone (including Schengen citizens) who want to come or leave Ireland is obligated to pass border control. In Schengen zone everyone (including non-Schengen citizens) has a complete freedom of travel.

Eliot Rosewater

The difference between the EU and Schengen lies primarily in border control, asfaik. We are all (EU citizens) entitled to free movement within the EU, but that doesnt imply our journey will be without internal border controls. Schengen seeks to remove these internal controls. Non-EU citizens apply for a Schengen Visa, allowing them to travel across all of the area (but not Ireland presumably).


Upon re-entering the EU from Croatia this summer the train I was in was at a halt for 45-60 minutes between passport control and customs. Throughout my whole trip I crossed 9 or 10 international borders. 9*45 = potentially a lot of time waiting for my passport to be checked. So I saved a lot of time; didnt get stopped once internally.

Thats my experience by train. In 2006 I crossed the Spanish border by car, and was stopped by nasty Spanish Police for a border check. Ditto on entering France from Andorra. (I was also stopped about 100km later at a toll bridge by a policeman who, upon hearing I had traveled from Andorra, took my car aside and checked my boot. Him mistaking figs for hash was one of the memorable parts of the trip!)

#15

WooPeeA wrote: »

Ireland is out of that agreement so everyone (including Schengen citizens) who want to come or leave Ireland is obligated to pass border control. In Schengen zone everyone (including non-Schengen citizens) has a complete freedom of travel.

So passengers on a flight from say, Paris to Berlin, would not be asked for passports when they get to Berlin airport?

But passengers flying from Dublin to Berlin would have to show passports in Berlin?

Is that correct, or am I off base?

WooPeeA

#15 wrote: »

So passengers on a flight from say, Paris to Berlin, would not be asked for passports when they get to Berlin airport?

But passengers flying from Dublin to Berlin would have to show passports in Berlin?

Is that correct, or am I off base?

All passangers on a flight from Paris to Berlin would not be asked for passport for sure. I'm not sure about the 2nd example.. I think when you land in Schengen zone you don't have to show your passport anymore but I'm not sure.

EDIT:

I remember my trip to Poland last year, I was flying from Dublin (no Schengen) to Rzeszow (Schengen). It was a very small airport mostly serving for military staff where nobody wants to fly to but Ryanair.

When I was in Dublin I had to show my passport several times, at check in, later at the gates and when I was entering the plane.

When I landed in Rzeszow we were taken to the building with the exit directly to the street. No passport controls, no nothing.

Lockstep

Thanks everyone; so essentially we have free movement as part of the EU but the Schengen removes any internal controls.

I still have free movement as an Irish citizen but can be subjected to border controls when entering Ireland?

WooPeeA

Yes.

McArron

WooPeeA wrote: »

All passangers on a flight from Paris to Berlin would not be asked for passport for sure. I'm not sure about the 2nd example.. I think when you land in Schengen zone you don't have to show your passport anymore but I'm not sure.

EDIT:

I remember my trip to Poland last year, I was flying from Dublin (no Schengen) to Rzeszow (Schengen). It was a very small airport mostly serving for military staff where nobody wants to fly to but Ryanair.

When I was in Dublin I had to show my passport several times, at check in, later at the gates and when I was entering the plane.

When I landed in Rzeszow we were taken to the building with the exit directly to the street. No passport controls, no nothing.

If you fly to Krakow from Dublin you will be directed to 'Non-Schengen gate' where border guard will check your passport. People travelling from any Schengen-zone city to Krakow will be directed to 'Schengen' gate and straight to the luggage collection hall.

potlatch

kickoutthejams wrote: »

Am browsing through the ideas of free movement within the EU and those of the Schengen agreement.
I'm finding the concepts a bit strange; on the one hand, Irish citizens, as EU citizens seem to have free movement within the EU. That said, we're not members of the Schengen agreement and therefore should still have border controls.


Anyone able to expalin the two terms properly to me?

AFAIK, we're not a Schengen country because the UK isn't a Schengen country. Ireland is a member of the Common Travel Area between the UK and Ireland. Travelling to the UK, we need to show ID but not necessarily a passport. We must show a passport entering the Schengen zone but as EU citizens we have the right to free travel within the Schengen zone.

This gets very confusing as, in the case of one colleague travelling from Africa to Ireland, he must get a different UK visa for even just transiting through a British airport because he's entering the CTA and not the Schengen zone even though he's coming from a Commonwealth country. It's all very annoying. Another friend went to Ukraine only to re-enter into Schengen Germand through Poland and got stuck at the border for nine hours.

I'd rather be part of Schengen than the CTA but in many ways, it's still a case of that the UK says goes.

Riskymove

kickoutthejams wrote: »

Thanks everyone; so essentially we have free movement as part of the EU but the Schengen removes any internal controls.

I still have free movement as an Irish citizen but can be subjected to border controls when entering Ireland?

basically yes....

once UK was not in Schengen it made it difficult for us to be....we made our own arrangements with UK instead as we share border with them

Its all much of a muchness really as you still need some sort of ID wherever you go, if for no other reason than to prove you are you!!

View

Riskymove wrote: »

basically yes....

once UK was not in Schengen it made it difficult for us to be....we made our own arrangements with UK instead as we share border with them

Had we decided to join Schengen, the UK would have had to choose between: i) joining Schengen, ii) putting border controls in place between the UK and the RoI (which they never did even during the troubles) or, iii) putting border controls up within the UK (i.e. GB-NI).

As it is is by rolling over and agreeing to go along with them, we enabled the UK to opt out.

Riskymove

View wrote: »

Had we decided to join Schengen, the UK would have had to choose between: i) joining Schengen, ii) putting border controls in place between the UK and the RoI (which they never did even during the troubles) or, iii) putting border controls up within the UK (i.e. GB-NI).

As it is is by rolling over and agreeing to go along with them, we enabled the UK to opt out.

yes but if they did ii) or iii) then it would have caused a lot of issues for Irish trade and general travel

I often wonder why is was not possible for us to have joined Schengen and also made direct arrangements with UK...was this not possible?

Empire o de Sun

I have travelled between many Schengen countries by car, and It's great. And I've flown between them and it is really allot easier in the airport.

It would be great at Dublin Airport cos probably 75% of flights (I'm guessing) are from Schegen countries, and you'd have not queuing to go through immigration/passport control.

As it is we don't check if people leave the country, so it is a bit bizzare our system. If you are a non-EU citizen you have no way of proving you left the country in your passport.

The main thing about Schengen that I like beside the free movement is the common visa system. Ireland needs to be part of this.

If the UK leaves the EU (pending conservatives in power) then the Customs will be on the border again, and if the Customs are there you could have the Passport Control too.

This would stop the cross border shopping too

Empire o de Sun

Also, Andorra is not in the EU and is not part of the Schengen area, The Police officeer was more interested if you were over you customs allowance for tobacco or beer etc.

View

Riskymove wrote: »

yes but if they did ii) or iii) then it would have caused a lot of issues for Irish trade and general travel?

By agreeing to opt out with them, we basically allowed the UK to avoid both the question and the expense of the solution.

As it is, the UK has spent the best part of a decade and well over a billion on a massive border control system. This was to have included passport control with Ireland (altough the NI-RoI situation was never clarified). This ran into a problem as the House of Lords rebelled over the issue. In addition, it now turns out that the scheme can't go ahead (at least in its current form) as it would be an absolute violation of EU rules.

Riskymove wrote: »

I often wonder why is was not possible for us to have joined Schengen and also made direct arrangements with UK...was this not possible?

I don't know. To the best of my knowledge, this idea was never explored. I'd imagine the problem with the idea would be on the UK side rather than the Schengen side. They'd look pretty stupid having strict border controls between the UK and France or The Netherlands while leaving an open border or easy border controls with the RoI.

Riskymove

View wrote: »

They'd look pretty stupid having strict border controls between the UK and France or The Netherlands while leaving an open border or easy border controls with the RoI.

but is that not the current situation they are in?

View

Riskymove wrote: »

but is that not the current situation they are in?

To rephrase the comment to what I meant - :

"Were the RoI a member of Schengen, the UK would look pretty stupid having strict border controls between the UK and (Schengen States) France or The Netherlands while leaving an open border or easy border controls with the (Schengen State) RoI".

Were this the case, the UK's strict border standards with mainland European Schengen States could be bypassed by first travelling to Ireland (an inter-Schengen journey), then entering the UK from Ireland using the easier border standards on the (Schengen) RoI-UK border.

Instead though, the UK can defend its position by having the RoI operate to whatever standards the UK's Home Office wants.

Riskymove

View wrote: »

To rephrase the comment to what I meant - :

ah right, that makes sense...and is exactly why we could not do both


therefore if we joined shcengen, the UK would withdraw from our agreement (presumably, i note you say that could be tested) which cause more problems for us than schwenegen would help us..

AJ STYLES

basically ireland does whatever westminster does. sad way but its fact

Red Sleeping Beauty

The situation's bizarre and confusing because of Ireland and the UK's loose unofficial 'common travel area' thing. Irish and UK citizens can travel between Ireland the UK with free movement. If you fly into a UK city there's a separate arrivals for "UK, Channel Islands and ROI" so there's no checks and it's taken that you are entitled to be there. If you fly from Ireland or the UK into Dublin airport you've to queue up in the EU immigration line and prove you've a right to be there.

Last year the UK tried to put some controls on immigration between here and there which would've effectively removed the common travel area but the bill was defeated - see here. I think someone has said though that the common travel area might be in violation of EU rules.

EU citizens that arrive in Dublin airport and have an identity card with their citizenship stated on it are allowed pass through with no hassle as far as I remember. In Ireland the only piece of ID to prove citizenship is passport or a driver's licence that says you were born in Ireland before 2005. It's doubtful if there'll ever be a time when you can fly form Dublin to Berlin or Paris without the need for a passport and without needing to show ID at an immigration desk. Especially if it is demanded when flying within Ireland or arriving from the UK.

You can off course pass through NI from the UK not a bother.

Riskymove

Red Sleeping Beauty wrote: »

.

EU citizens that arrive in Dublin airport and have an identity card with their citizenship stated on it are allowed pass through with no hassle as far as I remember. In Ireland the only piece of ID to prove citizenship is passport or a driver's licence that says you were born in Ireland before 2005. It's doubtful if there'll ever be a time when you can fly form Dublin to Berlin or Paris without the need for a passport and without needing to show ID at an immigration desk. Especially if it is demanded when flying within Ireland or arriving from the UK.

You can off course pass through NI from the UK not a bother.

well yes frankly thats the key bit

as an island we have a different situation than say germany, we only have a border with NI

Airlines generally require ID so for most of our travel we need passport anyway

its different when people can skip across borders on foot, picture Holland/Belgium/Germany etc