whats "the ban"

Shiva

thecornflake wrote: »

The only thing to do is stop them from getting their hand on aeg's and the like. The most effective way of doing this is a personal licence.

You'd kill off the sport. You can argue that most airsofters who currently play would actually go to the trouble of licensing, because they're active, and already know what they'd be missing out on if they had to give it up.

But introduce airsoft to a new player and tell him he needs to get a licence in order to own a gun? The sport wouldn't have grown a fifth as quickly as it did. You also wouldnt have the wide choice of retailers you have in this country, because the userbase wouldnt be there to support them all.

The idea of the importers licence isnt supposed to curb the amount of users, but only who can import and sell them. The criteria for an import license will more than likely lay down rules to where they can be sold from, and where the shops can be located, and that right there will eliminate an awful lot of the knackers who only want to get a hold of one "for the craic", because they wont stumble across them on market stalls or in gadget shop windows.

The brandishing section is purely there to make it easier to prosecute gob****es. We cant legislate for idiots - they're everywhere. This makes it easier to slap them down when they misbehave with a RIF, and I strongly disagree with you when you say they'll get off because of their background - not for a firearms offence, and not in the current "guns gone wild" climate generated by the media and politicians.

And it wont affect second hand private sales - the law specifically mentions that the sales must be by way of trade or business in order to require a license.

thecornflake

Glad to see it won't get rid of the second hand trade , it seems very popular. I totaly understand the shop licence , it must be done , but if a person had to obtain a personal licence . even from the IAA , just to have them on file , it would really make the sport more secure. This way also going back to the second hand trade , anybody selling an aeg privately can request to see this licence to ensure they are selling to a responsible player.

For new players , i thought this would be beter. New people often rent aeg's from the venue they are at to try out the sport , then when they decide they would like to own one , they can easily apply for this licence. Thus it shows new people joining and those that think the sport is dangerous/lawless that there are conditions.

I was not suggesting a massive pain in the a*s effort to get a personal licence , merely something to show that you understand the safety aspects of the sport and that you're information is kept on file , should the gardai or others need it due to any wrong doing. Thus this would confine the sale of aeg's from licenced shops , to licenced responsible ( traceable also ) people rather than clowns that want to cause trouble.

Shiva

thecornflake wrote: »

I was not suggesting a massive pain in the a*s effort to get a personal licence , merely something to show that you understand the safety aspects of the sport and that you're information is kept on file , should the gardai or others need it due to any wrong doing. Thus this would confine the sale of aeg's from licenced shops , to licenced responsible ( traceable also ) people rather than clowns that want to cause trouble.

Yeah, I actually see where you're coming from, but the problem is that the IAA cant be the ones who control the licensing of new players, because they're not a government body. They're just a bunch of volunteers who take a lot of crap for trying to provide guidance for the sport - they have no legal right to deny someone the use of an airsoft gun, and in order to be given that right, they'd have to be a government body.

Even if that impossibility actually happened, you'd then have to have specific rules and regulations for them to adhere to when appointing commitee members (so as to maintain impartiality) and even more rules and regulations to govern whether or not someone is granted a license, so the applicant cant sue them for discrimination in the event they're refused.

And once the government and rules and beaurocracy and red tape get involved, it stops being simple and becomes a massive pain in the ass effort.

should the gardai or others need it due to any wrong doing.

I'm not sure why having your name on a database or list somewhere will matter a damn if you abuse a RIF ? You'll still suffer the consequences if you're caught. I might be misunderstanding your point, but I took that to mean if you get caught acting the maggot, the cops nab you, look you up on the database and then....what ? What does your name being on a list of registered airsofter users have to do with the fact you need a good hard slap for being a twat ?

Theres also the fact that (I believe, anyway) you'd have a massive grassroots rebellion from players who dont want their details going on a government database simply because they want to own toy guns.

thecornflake

Shiva wrote: »

And once the government and rules and beaurocracy and red tape get involved, it stops being simple and becomes a massive pain in the ass effort.

Theres also the fact that (I believe, anyway) you'd have a massive grassroots rebellion from players who dont want their details going on a government database simply because they want to own toy guns.

ahhh yes , i didn't see that about the red tape part , good point. As for the rebellion by people who just want to own " toy guns " , as far as i see , with the law changing , they shouldn't be viewed as " toys ", certainly not as firearms either, but defo not "toys".

Even for local garda stations to issue to licence, if all the red tape could be cleared , i think it would greatly benefit the sport , making it more secure. This way the persons info would be on file , and perhaps a safety breifing from a gardai once they have been approved and then perhaps the licence would be dispatched by the IAA. I also think besides the safety aspect and making the sport more secure , and less vunerable to these " monkeys " who just want to cause trouble , it would make the airsoft community as a whole more connected.

thecornflake

Shiva wrote: »

I'm not sure why having your name on a database or list somewhere will matter a damn if you abuse a RIF ? You'll still suffer the consequences if you're caught. I might be misunderstanding your point, but I took that to mean if you get caught acting the maggot, the cops nab you, look you up on the database and then....what ? What does your name being on a list of registered airsofter users have to do with the fact you need a good hard slap for being a twat ?

well it was my thoughts that they would then take away your licence , preventing you from purchasing any aeg's in the future.

Gatling

thecornflake wrote: »

well it was my thoughts that they would then take away your licence , preventing you from purchasing any aeg's in the future.

and yet you could own 10 -20 aegs loose your licence and you cant buy number 21 ahhhhhh oh look i still own 20 aegs ha ha ha ,

Airsoft is safe , its not going to be banned
Having a licence requirement dosent stop idiots (you can get banned from driving a car but you can still go out and buy one while banned)
having to have Gardai trained to give so called safety briefings to indivdual's or groups at taxpayer' expenses lets see how far that gets

having a licence wont bring the community closer or make airsoft better ,


you can write 1000 laws needing 1000 licences and you will find 900 will be easily broken without anyone noticing regardless of licences

thecornflake

Gatling wrote: »

and yet you could own 10 -20 aegs loose your licence and you cant buy number 21 ahhhhhh oh look i still own 20 aegs ha ha ha ,

Airsoft is safe , its not going to be banned
Having a licence requirement dosent stop idiots (you can get banned from driving a car but you can still go out and buy one while banned)
having to have Gardai trained to give so called safety briefings to indivdual's or groups at taxpayer' expenses lets see how far that gets

having a licence wont bring the community closer or make airsoft better ,


you can write 1000 laws needing 1000 licences and you will find 900 will be easily broken without anyone noticing regardless of licences

I see what you're saying , but if they brake the law , they should have the aeg's removed form their posession ( like a knife would be taken away from you if you were using it in an inappropriate manner). I might be wrong on this but im my opinion ,I would say that any " monkey " would not have a large collection of aeg's , even if he did and he was acting the gob****e with one , they should all be taken away from him/her.

Perhaps the gardai wouldn't give the breifing , on second thoughts I think the IAA would be beter suited.

Even if it doesn't make the community closer , it will make it more secure and less vulnerable like i said to these "monkeys" from giving it a bad name.

gerrowadat

thecornflake wrote: »

I see what you're saying , but if they brake the law , they should have the aeg's removed form their posession ( like a knife would be taken away from you if you were using it in an inappropriate manner). I might be wrong on this but im my opinion ,I would say that any " monkey " would not have a large collection of aeg's , even if he did and he was acting the gob****e with one , they should all be taken away from him/her.

They already are. Brandishing in public is a criminal offence, and you'll be prosecuted for acting the muppet, and the AEG confiscated, and rightly so.

Perhaps the gardai wouldn't give the breifing , on second thoughts I think the IAA would be beter suited.

Every IAA-affiliated retailer (at least in theory) places a flyer from the IAA in the box of every AEG they sell, setting out basically "If you act the maggot, a paladin will come and **** you up". Some shops are better than others about doing it, and most at least give you some sort of briefing. I think relying on retailers (who rely on Airsoft for their livelihood) to give people the info is better than relying on a tiny volunteer-run organisation. It all comes back to them if someone acts the maggot (I've spoken to retailers who've been tapped by Gardaí and PSNI from way across the country because some clown got nicked for shooting at cars).

Even if it doesn't make the community closer , it will make it more secure and less vulnerable like i said to these "monkeys" from giving it a bad name.

Have to disagree with you there. The only way this could be really effective (having a database) is if people were able to legally sign away something (i.e. "If I am convicted of a firearms offense, I will surrender my kit to be destroyed and say some hail marys"). Just handing over information achieves nothing. You have to be signing up to something, and it has to be workable.

One thing that people don't seem to get is that the Gardaí, DoJ, Customs, and the authorities in general, at a certain level, don't actually give a ****e about Airsoft. They're delighted that the IAA is there to provide guidelines and regulate the industry so they don't have to step in and do something half-assed, and it literally is the case that as long as they don't have to do anything, everything's peachy. Having Sgt. Bumble**** in Ballykiltehob Garda Station fully briefed on what an AEG is is the last thing they're going to do.

thecornflake

gerrowadat wrote: »

1)They already are. Brandishing in public is a criminal offence, and you'll be prosecuted for acting the muppet, and the AEG confiscated, and rightly so.



2)Every IAA-affiliated retailer (at least in theory) places a flyer from the IAA in the box of every AEG they sell, setting out basically "If you act the maggot, a paladin will come and **** you up". Some shops are better than others about doing it, and most at least give you some sort of briefing. I think relying on retailers (who rely on Airsoft for their livelihood) to give people the info is better than relying on a tiny volunteer-run organisation. It all comes back to them if someone acts the maggot (I've spoken to retailers who've been tapped by Gardaí and PSNI from way across the country because some clown got nicked for shooting at cars).



3)Have to disagree with you there. The only way this could be really effective (having a database) is if people were able to legally sign away something (i.e. "If I am convicted of a firearms offense, I will surrender my kit to be destroyed and say some hail marys"). Just handing over information achieves nothing. You have to be signing up to something, and it has to be workable.

4)One thing that people don't seem to get is that the Gardaí, DoJ, Customs, and the authorities in general, at a certain level, don't actually give a ****e about Airsoft. They're delighted that the IAA is there to provide guidelines and regulate the industry so they don't have to step in and do something half-assed, and it literally is the case that as long as they don't have to do anything, everything's peachy. Having Sgt. Bumble**** in Ballykiltehob Garda Station fully briefed on what an AEG is is the last thing they're going to do.

1) true , and if this was implemented , they would not be able to purchase another aeg the next day as they currently are able to atm.

2) im sure the shops don't want to loose their licence to sell aegs , so i would have thought they would feel beter seling it to someone responsible.

3) you are on the database , if you are caught acting the muppet , you get your personal licence taken away , thus restricting you from purchasing another aeg , unlike it is currently.

4) when was the last time the gardai gave a **** about anything ??? , they're job is to stop these scum bags , which is what they would have to do anyways , but with the personal licence , there would be less of them with aegs.

Gatling

This is a pointless arguement

The so called monkeys dont care if you need a licence or if have to be on a data base ,

Idiots are idiots for a reason they dont care about anything but being idiots

your making its sound like thousands of idiots are running around acting the maggot with airsoft devices this is wrong

does having a firearms licence requirement stop gangland shootings- No

does having requiring a car licence stop accidents or road deaths -No

does having a fishing licence stop poaching -No

Nothing is idiot proof from golf to hurling more hassle is caused from idiots running amok with golf clubs and hurleys baseball bats all which have been used in murders and robberys, assaults

Idiots using airsofts to cause trouble are few and far between

thecornflake

Gatling wrote: »

Idiots using airsofts to cause trouble are few and far between

I totally agree with you there. However the government seem to want to restrict the sport more , and my point was that the way they are doing it won't make a difference , the personal licence thing is the most effective way in my opinion.

gerrowadat

thecornflake wrote: »

I totally agree with you there. However the government seem to want to restrict the sport more , and my point was that the way they are doing it won't make a difference , the personal licence thing is the most effective way in my opinion.

How is making brandishing illegal not making a difference? Up until July last year, taking an AEG out on a public street and waving it around was not illegal. Someone had to claim they were in genuine fear of their lives, press charges against you for assault and spend money to show up in court and give victim impact statements and all that noise.

Brandishing is now illegal. It's a firearms offense. Firearms offences are hard ****ing core. There are a bunch of jobs, permits and VISAs that you can no longer get because you have a firearms offense on your record. If you are charged and convicted with brandishing an AEG, you can never hold a firearms license (and you lose any you have), it's likely you'll be deemed unsuitable to join the army, and you can never visit a long list of countries, such as the USA. I think that having my name on some IAA register and not being able to go out and buy another AEG will be the least of my worries at that point.

Personal licensing systems where the item being licensed isn't uniquely identifiable are unpoliceable. It's like issuing a license for bricks in case people throw them.

The UKARA system in the UK is a perfect example -- that's essentially a personal licensing system, and there are so many ways around it that it's essentially meaningless.

To take my point further, if I want to get round personal licensing laws, I just get my mate who has a license to buy an AEG for me. AEGs don't have serial numbers, there's no way to prove he bought it, he's in the clear, I get my AEG, job done. Muppetry still happens, and it's an extra 2 minutes of bypassing an ineffective law. If I get caught acting the muppet with it, it doesn't matter where I got it, I'm still royally ****ed.

The aims of the laws were to make sure stuff was coming in under the limit, to make things easier on customs, and make it so the cops can go upside the head of anyone who is a stupid bastard with an AEG. Job done on all counts, I think.

thecornflake

gerrowadat wrote: »

How is making brandishing illegal not making a difference? Up until July last year, taking an AEG out on a public street and waving it around was not illegal. Someone had to claim they were in genuine fear of their lives, press charges against you for assault and spend money to show up in court and give victim impact statements and all that noise.

Brandishing is now illegal. It's a firearms offense. Firearms offences are hard ****ing core. There are a bunch of jobs, permits and VISAs that you can no longer get because you have a firearms offense on your record. If you are charged and convicted with brandishing an AEG, you can never hold a firearms license (and you lose any you have), it's likely you'll be deemed unsuitable to join the army, and you can never visit a long list of countries, such as the USA. I think that having my name on some IAA register and not being able to go out and buy another AEG will be the least of my worries at that point.

Personal licensing systems where the item being licensed isn't uniquely identifiable are unpoliceable. It's like issuing a license for bricks in case people throw them.

The UKARA system in the UK is a perfect example -- that's essentially a personal licensing system, and there are so many ways around it that it's essentially meaningless.

To take my point further, if I want to get round personal licensing laws, I just get my mate who has a license to buy an AEG for me. AEGs don't have serial numbers, there's no way to prove he bought it, he's in the clear, I get my AEG, job done. Muppetry still happens, and it's an extra 2 minutes of bypassing an ineffective law. If I get caught acting the muppet with it, it doesn't matter where I got it, I'm still royally ****ed.

The aims of the laws were to make sure stuff was coming in under the limit, to make things easier on customs, and make it so the cops can go upside the head of anyone who is a stupid bastard with an AEG. Job done on all counts, I think.

but atm , if you brandish an aeg , the next day you can buy another one , lets attempt to stop it at least. I here what your saying about other people buying it ( much llike tinker children asking adults outside an off licence to buy drink ) , and there always will be ways around everything , but like i said , at least make it difficult. If you buy a certain aeg it should be noted on your file. If the gardai ask you to produce it and you don't have it ( because you gave it to your swaaa mate)then you get your licence taken away. If the aeg is stolen , you simply report the robbery like you would anything else. If you sell it privately , you take note of the buyers licence number , and the aeg is removed from your file to theirs. It's not 100% effective, i know , but it's a deterant. If you make it difficult enough , the "monkeys" will find something else to exploit.

Fallschirmjager

oh dear, i see the dept of airsoft being created here...and a tax upon tax to support it. I hope this doesnt upset you too much but i suspect it might but that is not my intention.

what we need in Ireland is less paper work not more. You seem to understand that abusers of airsoft will continue to cause problems yet you want us all to be deluged with paperwork to give the impression you are safe. That is an illusion of safety and i might add its an illusion peddled by a lot governments because if forces you to do one thing always and that is look to government for the answer. you are trading your freedom as a citizen for the illusion of safety. The really sad part is people will trade all liberty for safety (and eventually loose that as well) and that is where most governments now ply their trade, but i digress. You may not realise it but you are starting down the path of creating law after law to restrict your rights forever tightening the circle of control until airsoft dies, except of course, for people who use it illegally. If you want proof, You saw it last week, people terrified to clean their driveway because the had the belief that they were then responsible for any accidents. That is a case of government and laws gone mad that people are terrified to do anything in case they are responsible (leaving people with the mistaken belief, only govt can sort it out) and yet the centralised control the govt has taxed us to death for failed to deliver...honestly were you suprised? As proof, i hereby deliver this prediction:: the next step from govt will be this comment 'we need to learn from this for the next time...' . Welcome to the nanny state you are now looking to replicate in airsoft...all for the mistaken belief you will be safer. sorry to pop the bubble but people who break the law dont tend to be too concerned about your rules. Aeg's to these people are simply a tool, an implement just like any other.
The only people who will follow the rules you espouse are all the people here, namely people who abide by the rules anyway. IMHO the law gerrowdat mentioned about brandishing in the street is a a good law. It states you go waving it around in a dangerous manner and we take it off you. It clearly puts the onus on YOU the user to behave or there is consequences. This is where responsibility should lie -- with it citizenry. Its not about a system, its about all of us.
What you are requesting is that on the decision of a garda or i guess someone, they have the right to enter my home and remove all airsoft items they deem a risk. That doesnt sound like the Ireland i live in (with some exceptions) and it certainly doesnt sound like an Ireland i want to live in.
There is a great line you should consider in relation to the previous statement: before you create a law, imagine your worst enemy in charge of it. You would be well advised to heed that.
What you are looking at creating is a monolithic institution, that tries to centalise control of peoples lives. you may have noticed -- this doesnt work, it never has worked and it never will work. Centralised control always end up in the same place, only protecting the system they built not the people it was constructed to protect. Centralised control is about controlling you the citizen, its not about protecting you or your rights. What you are talking about here is a licensing system you admit wont work but you want it anyway. The definition of insanity is trying the same thing repeatedly and expecting a different result. There are loads of potential issues with the current law, as with all laws BUT it does, and this is a credit to the IAA, it allows you to play a great game legally. Pushing control to the shops to ensure legal limits is a smart move because it decentralises control. It moved it closer to you and me. Personally, i would prefer I control my own legality but hey, thats me and my beliefs. The licensing system wont work. It will however, in the short term, do one thing, It will make you feel better until you eventually give up airsoft because its too expensive, too annoying or too frustrating. If that is your goal, and i might add, it is the goal of all people who seem to apply some magical properties to anything gun shaped in Ireland...go ahead. If you believe, like i do, it is none of the governments business what i do with my money and time and how i choose to spend it so long as it does not interfere with fellow citizens, let go of the fear, drop the illusion you would be safer and go outside and play...legally.

gerrowadat

thecornflake wrote: »

but atm , if you brandish an aeg , the next day you can buy another one , lets attempt to stop it at least. I here what your saying about other people buying it ( much llike tinker children asking adults outside an off licence to buy drink ) , and there always will be ways around everything , but like i said , at least make it difficult. If you buy a certain aeg it should be noted on your file. If the gardai ask you to produce it and you don't have it ( because you gave it to your swaaa mate)then you get your licence taken away. If the aeg is stolen , you simply report the robbery like you would anything else. If you sell it privately , you take note of the buyers licence number , and the aeg is removed from your file to theirs. It's not 100% effective, i know , but it's a deterant. If you make it difficult enough , the "monkeys" will find something else to exploit.

Completely unworkable. Who's going to administer all of this, and pay for the staff to administer the database?

As for being able to buy another one the next day, I think you're missing the point. I can go into Argos and buy a baseball bat for about 20 quid, and batter someone with it, and when I get out of prison I can just go buy another one. If I'm especially brain-dead, I could actually kill someone with it. I researched this, and there is a grand total of ONE baseball field in Ireland (It's in clondalkin). So if I buy a baseball bat, it's almost definitely for nefarious reasons. So, following your logic, why aren't baseball bats licensed? If I misuse one, I should be prevented from getting another one, right?

A personal licensing system like you describe restricts the freedom of people. It makes no sense to license items that are complely harmless when I can walk into Argos and buy any one of dozens of things they sell that can kill someone. As well as making no sense in theory, it also makes no sense in practice. Complete overkill.

extremetaz

as Gerrout said & that's not to even mention that you're talking about licensing TOYS!

This debate has been had many times over the last 3 years, right from the very inception of the IAA.

It's not only an unworkable solution, it's complete overkill.

thecornflake

extremetaz wrote: »

as Gerrout said & that's not to even mention that you're talking about licensing TOYS!

they must not be toys if the government require shops to have this new licence and if it is dangerous to brandish them in public. Last time i checked you can walk down the street with a transformer toy/ power rangers/ what have you. I also certainly wouldn't be comfertable giving an aeg "toy" to a child.

As for baseball bats , the government obviously aren't concerned about them , but they seem to be about aegs. So if a "monkey" gets arested brandishing an aeg , let out the next day with possibly a slap ( at the most) , it can go back out and buy a new one. A baseball bat is a tool , yes, it is used to strike a base ball , not someones head, that is it's design. However an aeg is designed to look like a real gun , and to a lesser extent, fire bb's (safely ) at targets. So right off the bat ( har har) , the aeg looks to be the most dangerous of the two.

As for signing away my freedom ? eh well if you break the law , you don't get a say in if you agree with that law or not , so you're not really signing anything away. The laws are already there , not being able to miss use aeg's ect. You don't giv more control to these evil government people , you prevent the "monkeys" from re offending. Yes the gardai will kick your door in and take away all your aeg's , if and only if you did something wrong with them.

extremetaz

thecornflake wrote: »

...

you should run for the IAA committee next year.

thecornflake

extremetaz wrote: »

you should run for the IAA committee next year.

i wouldn't be allowed , i don't have a personal licence lol

_SONIC_

soo can we still import grenades???

Puding

as long as they comply with irish law in regard to such items then yes, if they look like a grenade i could imagine them being classed as a rif, but at the moment with the information we have, you can still import them

_SONIC_

soo can we still import grenades???

Puding

at the moment with the information we have, you can still import them

:rolleyes:

im sorry can not going to give just a yes answer to this one, as things stand at this point you can import them but as we know things can change fast