Improving Punctuation,prose, that sort of stuff.

Turtwig

Hi Guys,

I'm not quite sure where to post this and I also thought it would be helpful to post this in A&A, as many users here tend know reputable sources for stuff that isn't pseudo nonsense (My reasoning is similar to Tim Robbins here:)). My understanding of english grammar and construction of paragraphs (I don't even know the correct jargon) is of the make-it-up-as-you-write-and-do-what-feels-somewhat-right-without-understanding-anything kind. I don't really know when to use commas, semicolons, etc.
So what would you guys recommend?
Any help would be gratefully appreciated.:)

Malt

MrPudding

Malty_T wrote: »

Hi Guys,

I'm not quite sure where to post this and I also thought it would be helpful to post this in A&A, as many users here tend know reputable sources for stuff that isn't pseudo nonsense (My reasoning is similar to Tim Robbins here:)). My understanding of english grammar and construction of paragraphs (I don't even know the correct jargon) is of the make-it-up-as-you-write-and-do-what-feels-somewhat-right-without-understanding-anything kind. I don't really know when to use commas, semicolons, etc.
So what would you guys recommend?
Any help would be gratefully appreciated.:)

Malt

Named after one of my favorite jokes of all time.*

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Eats-Shoots-Leaves-Tolerance-Punctuation/dp/1846680352/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1262560515&sr=8-3

And yes, it has been quite a while since I read it.

MrP














* Don't think it actually was named after the joke, but it might have been.

Petrovia

From your post your punctuation doesn't seem to be that bad. I'm saying that because if you want to know ALL the ins and outs of it it would take you quite a bit of boring study, and I'm assuming you want it to actually be worth it. I say boring - I study linguistics and even I think it's boring. So... Do people tell you you're not good at it or is this just something you yourself think?

With paragraph construction, I think it's best just to practice writing essays and things. Then after a while when you re-read them, you notice how sometimes it doesn't flow properly, and you can work on it. But I have encountered a lot of advice for writing good paragraphs, and it all seems to more or less like this: http://www2.actden.com/writ_den/tips/paragrap/index.htm

MrPudding wrote:

Don't think it actually was named after the joke, but it might have been.

What else would it be named after? Just curious as I assumed it was because of the joke. I haven't actually read it.

Leafed through it for a bit though and disliked the fact that she has, I believe, devoted a whole chapter to a tirade against smilies. Put me right off, that. (There!)

robindch

Malty_T wrote: »

I don't really know when to use commas, semicolons, etc. So what would you guys recommend?

I'd have said your punctuation is fine too. But if you really want to read upon the topic, then Strunk and White's The Elements of Style is as good a basic guide as any and there's an online edition of the section on punctuation here.

Fowler's A Dictionary of Modern English Usage is larger, much funnier and has been updated from time to time, but there seems to be no online edition anywhere. If you want to spend far too long on the topic, then the The Chicago Manual of Style is probably the best thing to buy. The exhaustive and exhausting section on punctuation is here.

Alternatively, it's possible to infer rules by reading good prose and, for that, there's no better place to start than Edward Gibbon's magisterial Decline and Fall. Chapter one is here.

doctoremma

Malty_T wrote: »

Hi Guys,

I'm not quite sure where to post this and I also thought it would be helpful to post this in A&A, as many users here tend know reputable sources for stuff that isn't pseudo nonsense (My reasoning is similar to Tim Robbins here:)). My understanding of english grammar and construction of paragraphs (I don't even know the correct jargon) is of the make-it-up-as-you-write-and-do-what-feels-somewhat-right-without-understanding-anything kind. I don't really know when to use commas, semicolons, etc.
So what would you guys recommend?
Any help would be gratefully appreciated.:)

Malt

I have never had any trouble reading your posts. Semi-colons are overrated anyway but you use them to separate two phrases in the same sentence, either of which could standalone as a sentence. Also to separate list items defined by a statement preceding a colon.

1. Emma replied positively to Malty's post; she had never found his grammar a problem.
2. There are many reasons for religious belief: childhood indoctrination; comfort in the face of death; desire to get your kids into a good school.

Ickle Magoo

The Blue Book of Grammar and Punctuation is good, either or both of the Oxford books A-Z & Guide to Effective Writing and Speaking are good too. The Panda book is a a funny discussion on the importance and history of punctuation.

The exacting nature of language & punctuation is notoriously boring, deliberately riddled with exceptions and often disagreed on. Best of luck Malty! :P

Permabear

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doctoremma

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Both uses appear to be acceptable.

Tim Robbins

MrPudding wrote: »

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Eats-Shoots-Leaves-Tolerance-Punctuation/dp/1846680352/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1262560515&sr=8-3

+1 a must read.

PDN

Many things in life are not learned by memorising lists and rules, but rather by subconsciously imitating what we observe in others. That's how we learned to speak in our mother tongue, and it's why we pick up accents.

The best way I know to improve English grammar and language is to read lots of good writing. Read great literature. Read those writers who really know how to use language well.

You can get paperback editions of classic works of literature for a couple of euro. Try Charles Dickens, George Eliot, John Steinbeck, Joseph Conrad, Ernest Hemingway, or Thomas Hardy. If you don't like one particular author, then chuck it away (it only cost buttons anyway) and try someone else.

Malty T wrote:

My understanding of english grammar and construction of paragraphs (I don't even know the correct jargon) is of the make-it-up-as-you-write-and-do-what-feels-somewhat-right-without-understanding-anything kind.

As you read more good literature then you will find that your "what-feels-right-without-understanding-anything" instinct gets better and better. You will, quite naturally, begin to imitate the kind of sentence construction you are seeing every day.

Not only that, but you'll enjoy some great stories (and some crap ones), see how some great minds of the past have approached moral and philosophical problems, and - if you buy cheap paperbacks that fit in a coat pocket - while away those boring times sitting on buses, planes, doctors' waiting rooms etc.

Permabear

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doctoremma

donegalfella wrote: »

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Also, avoid too much magical realism as this approach, relying heavily on stream of consciousness styling, appears to disregard punctuation altogether

PDN

doctoremma wrote: »

Also, avoid too much magical realism as this approach, relying heavily on stream of consciousness styling, appears to disregard punctuation altogether

Also, avoid any poetry by ee cummings!

stevejazzx

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

It appears odd that such usage made sense historically, it's clearly unnecessary in the example given.

LostinKildare

robindch wrote: »

I'd have said your punctuation is fine too. But if you really want to read upon the topic, then Strunk and White's The Elements of Style is as good a basic guide as any and there's an online edition of the section on punctuation here.

Fowler's A Dictionary of Modern English Usage is larger, much funnier and has been updated from time to time, but there seems to be no online edition anywhere. If you want to spend far too long on the topic, then the The Chicago Manual of Style is probably the best thing to buy. The exhaustive and exhausting section on punctuation is here.

The Elements of Style and A Dictionary of Modern English Usage would be my suggestions too. The former is "a bit American" (like Spock!), with for example explanations of the American that/which distinction. Chicago might put you off grammar altogether; it's really for professional editors.

Turtwig

Cheers, guys thanks a million for everything so far.:D

So... Do people tell you you're not good at it or is this just something you yourself think?

Kinda both really. I know myself that when writing longer passages I tend to lose clarity and by simply rereading it I find it to be muddled. So it's no surprise to me really when people point it out. The trouble is when the paragraph is bigger my tendency to just randomly punctuate things by feel seems to start going awry.
I guess, what I'm really asking for in this thread is ways to improve the your writing (especially communication) when you're writing detailed arguments or passages.

Petrovia wrote: »

http://www2.actden.com/writ_den/tips/paragrap/index.htm

Thanks very much for these.

robindch wrote: »

If you want to spend far too long on the topic, then the The Chicago Manual of Style is probably the best thing to buy. The exhaustive and exhausting section on punctuation is here.

Yowsers!!:eek:

Petrovia

stevejazzx wrote: »

It appears odd that such usage made sense historically, it's clearly unnecessary in the example given.

That's subjective. It separates a rather long subject from the rest of the sentence, which can make it easier to read because it eliminates ambiguity or garden path-iness (especially when you're used to it being used like that - if you're used to it and someone would leave it out you'd just assume the subject hadn't finished yet).

Malty_T wrote: »

Kinda both really. I know myself that when writing longer passages I tend to lose clarity and by simply rereading it I find it to be muddled. So it's no surprise to me really when people point it out. The trouble is when the paragraph is bigger my tendency to just randomly punctuate things by feel seems to start going awry.
I guess, what I'm really asking for in this thread is ways to improve the your writing (especially communication) when you're writing detailed arguments or passages.

Ah I have a handbook on academic writing at home, wish I could remember now what it was called! I'll get back to you, as it does sound like it would be useful to you (I think it was fairly expensive though...).

doctoremma

stevejazzx wrote: »

It appears odd that such usage made sense historically, it's clearly unnecessary in the example given.

Lol, I would have separated the two parts of your sentence with a semicolon

Turtwig

doctoremma wrote: »

Lol, I would have separated the two parts of your sentence with a semicolon

Lol, curiosity begs me to ask you why?
Don't worry folks I'm not going to resort to asking you about punctuation the whole time, I'm not that desperate....yet:o
And Rob/Dades will probably have amended the charter by then.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

doctoremma

Malty_T wrote: »

Lol, curiosity begs me to ask you why?
Don't worry folks I'm not going to resort to asking you about punctuation the whole time, I'm not that desperate....yet:o
And Rob/Dades will probably have amended the charter by then.

Stevie: It appears odd that such usage made sense historically, it's clearly unnecessary in the example given.

Both phrases of the sentence can standalone as independent sentences.

So it could have been written: It appears odd that such usage made sense historically. It's clearly unnecessary in the example given.

However, to separate them by a full stop underestimates the interdependence of their meaning.

So I would have written: It appears odd that such usage made sense historically; it's clearly unnecessary in the example given.

Although to be honest, I would actually have written: It appears odd that such usage made sense historically as it's clearly unnecessary in the example given.

robindch

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I think it was Mark Twain who instructed people -- 33% more succinctly -- to "Eschew surplusage".

Actually, now that I google it, I'm reminded that it comes from his essay, Fenimore Cooper's Literary Offenses, a very funny rant by Twain against the guy who's best known these days for writing "The Last of the Mohicans".

Twain's essay is here and it really is worth a read, especially in a slow Texas drawl.

stevejazzx

robindch wrote: »

I think it was Mark Twain who instructed people -- 33% more succinctly -- to "Eschew surplusage".

Actually, now that I google it, I'm reminded that it comes from his essay, Fenimore Cooper's Literary Offenses, a very funny rant by Twain against the guy who's best known these days for writing "The Last of the Mohicans".

Twain's essay is here and it really is worth a read, especially in a slow Texas drawl.

twain wrote:

A work of art? It has no invention; it has no order, system, sequence, or result; it has no lifelikeness, no thrill, no stir, no seeming of reality; its characters are confusedly drawn, and by their acts and words they prove that they are not the sort of people the author claims that they are; its humor is pathetic; its pathos is funny; its conversations are -- oh! indescribable; its love-scenes odious; its English a crime against the language.

Petrovia

Petrovia wrote: »

Ah I have a handbook on academic writing at home, wish I could remember now what it was called! I'll get back to you, as it does sound like it would be useful to you (I think it was fairly expensive though...).

This is the one. Seems not that expensive after all... Though the newest version certainly is. But I'm not sure you'd need the newest!

It has lots of little chapters on different subjects. I'll give you the categories with some examples:

Grammar: e.g. a chapter on pronouns and case
Mechanics: e.g. a chapter on abbreviations, acronyms and numbers
Punctuation: e.g. a chapter on the apostrophe
Spelling and diction: e.g. a chapter on exactness
Effective sentences: e.g. a chapter on variety
Writing: e.g. a chapter on writing arguments
Research: e.g. a chapter on writing in business

Whilst it covers a wide range of things it's also quite concise and, in my opinion, explains things quickly, yet clearly. Which is handy if your attention span (like mine) isn't overly long!

Turtwig

Petrovia wrote: »

This is the one. Seems not that expensive after all... Though the newest version certainly is. But I'm not sure you'd need the newest!

It has lots of little chapters on different subjects. I'll give you the categories with some examples:

Grammar: e.g. a chapter on pronouns and case
Mechanics: e.g. a chapter on abbreviations, acronyms and numbers
Punctuation: e.g. a chapter on the apostrophe
Spelling and diction: e.g. a chapter on exactness
Effective sentences: e.g. a chapter on variety
Writing: e.g. a chapter on writing arguments
Research: e.g. a chapter on writing in business

Whilst it covers a wide range of things it's also quite concise and, in my opinion, explains things quickly, yet clearly. Which is handy if your attention span (like mine) isn't overly long!

To the library!:D

Petrovia

Haha, I hope it's useful to you!

Herbal Deity

Malty_T wrote: »

Hi Guys,

I'm not quite sure where to post this and I also thought it would be helpful to post this in A&A, as many users here tend know reputable sources for stuff that isn't pseudo nonsense (My reasoning is similar to Tim Robbins here:)). My understanding of english grammar and construction of paragraphs (I don't even know the correct jargon) is of the make-it-up-as-you-write-and-do-what-feels-somewhat-right-without-understanding-anything kind. I don't really know when to use commas, semicolons, etc.
So what would you guys recommend?
Any help would be gratefully appreciated.:)

It's a little like morality - there are some guidelines that most sane people adhere to, but no universal rules.