Match Up Advice Thread.

ayjayirl

D4RK ONION wrote: »

*digs up thread*


How Bush, tell me how!

Play your game, not his. All he wants to do to a Honda is to sonic boom you to death and stay away. The only way to beat him is to put him under pressure. When you play him, you allow him to keep you over the other side of the screen and when you try to jump over his booms, he air throws you. you can beat this air throw with an early kick (well kick for RYU) and use this and a zoning game to push him back into a corner game, watch for tic throws and punish flash blocked flash kicks. Honda has some vicious moves that really damage but you should always be looking to keep him in the corner and not throw in a headbutt that he can reset you with and escape to sonic doom his way to victory. Try baiting him to ex sonic or flash, this will allow you to punish. The thing to do is keep him guessing on what you are doing when he wakes up.

It aint easy against Brian but it can be done. Thats how I try to do it. I would of course defer to Bush on how to do it with Honda.

BTW - I am well aware that this type of game is easier for RYU as he has a fireball game to pressure.

bush

D4RK ONION wrote: »

*digs up thread*


How Bush, tell me how!

:pac:

I dunno if I have any good advice cos I dont know much about honda. I mained him for about a month when the game came out and barely played with him since.
When I do play with him I just use his brute strength to win, no fancy technique or anything. I do remember that his j.mp was beating air throw a lot though, I think I was doing it early. When I got in I would normally just cross up and go into jab hands jab ochio mix up. Thats basically my whole game plan with honda to be honest. Like I said im no authority on him.

animaX

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Not exactly match up advice but does anyone have advice on how to do FADC ultra's? I've tried it in training mode. I can FADC out of the srk but I just can't get the ultra off. I usually have trouble getting off an ultra on it's own when I try to do it fast so I think the timing might just be too strict for me.

Sorry to drag up an old post but I'm just seeing it now. I think that practicing FADC's with Sagat is much much easier than Ryu, especially when you go for the roundhouse juggle. The roundhouse juggle gives you a lot of time to get the ultra motion off and it means that you don't have to do the ultra motion instantly after the forward dash (which is the trickiest part). Once you're used to doing it with sagat move on to ryu.

For a while I was able to do fadc's with sagat no problem but couldn't do them for ryu. Now when I try them with ryu I'm doing the ultra TOO early :rolleyes:

Azza

http://www.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=205171&page=1

Guile match up for Honda is in post 3 of that thread.

Walk and block basically, ignore Booms and be patient. Are the main things.

Doctor DooM

Azza wrote: »

http://www.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=205171&page=1

Guile match up for Honda is in post 3 of that thread.

Walk and block basically, ignore Booms and be patient. Are the main things.

That's really interesting. Noted for increased Onion annoyance

Dreddybajs

I'm the opposite actually terry, I think they're far easier to do with Ryu because you can just whip the ultra motion out instantly for the most part!

D4RK ONION

Azza wrote: »

http://www.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=205171&page=1

Guile match up for Honda is in post 3 of that thread.

Walk and block basically, ignore Booms and be patient. Are the main things.

Doctor DooM wrote: »

That's really interesting. Noted for increased Onion annoyance

That was already my game plan as you may have noticed from the way I play you so, I guess it's just going to have to be practice, or break out my seth.

animaX

Dreddybajs wrote: »

I'm the opposite actually terry, I think they're far easier to do with Ryu because you can just whip the ultra motion out instantly for the most part!

Wow! Could we be more different

I guess sagats fadc seems easier to me because its not possible to do it too early, it will always hit. While with ryu it requires the slightest of pauses in order to not do it too early and end up with only one hit.

Sisko

yeah on pad I never had to worry about doing it too early, but for some reason on stick , the better I get at it, the more I must worry about waiting for that mili second so its not too early.

Its depends what side I'm on.

D4RK ONION

Hey, just saw this on the SRK Gen forum and thought it was funny

VS. Dhalsim wrote:

- Get in his face and press lots of buttons. Seriously. Have you ever played Dhalsim? He wants to keep you away for a reason.

Oh yeah, trying to learn Gen. I've got all his combos down except:

I can do the mp>mk>h.hands>mk>hands but I haven't managed to EX cancel the second hands into mp>mk>hands>mk>hands. Once I have that, I should be good combo wise.

Now I'm teaching myself spacing and match-up. I understand he's changing a lot in Super, but his hands combos are really fun to do and he's a fun change.

Doctor DooM

How a few rounds with future guy tonight and he's far from cheap, it's the bones of a defensive zoning game forming

FutureGuy

Doctor DooM wrote: »

How a few rounds with future guy tonight and he's far from cheap, it's the bones of a defensive zoning game forming

Thanks for the games DooM. Although I only won 2 from about 12 (none wins vs Guile), I was alot happier with my general play. Will be going through the replays tonight but most of mistakes again stemmed from jumping in at the wrong time. However, I think I was doing it alot less than before and I was happy to take rounds from your Guile.

I think I'm caught between play styles at the moment. It's tough to supress the urge to jump, but I was only doing it when you weren't charging down.

Doctor DooM

Future Guy asked me to give a critique of his games.

Ok what you were doing pretty well was footsies, I had to be careful of your cr mk and you always cancelled into a hadoken after it which gave you space and a little bit of chip even if I blocked.

Also I noticed you were using link combos, not the easiest in the world so a good thing if you are able to use them instead of cancels. If you learn a few more it'll make you very versatile and score more stun damage.

I noticed you were doing all of this until I got a bit more agressive, then I think you started panicking and you started jumping waaaay too much. Your hadoken pressure vanished then too (there was one round when I played Ibuki when we were at opposite ends of the screen when you let me build an entire EX bar throwing kunai in the corner. I then chipped you to death. If you'd been putting me under hadoken pressure I wouldn't have had the chance.)

You can actually use early jump attacks as part of a zoning game but it should be a once or twice a round thing. Especially as Ryu has m srk which is pretty good.

I think learning how to apply a bit of pressure might help too. Alot of Ryus I see will hadoken, the fadc right after it. Then they have the option of throwing cr lk, or throwing, or SRKing or whatever. But it's a bad guess for the guy on the receiving end as he's got loads of options. You might want to look into that.

So basically less jumping more hadoken and develop more pressure game would be my advice.

In specific to Guile, btw, it's definitely not safe to jump at him just because he's not charging a flash. He has many normals which are great anti air, not to forget the air throw. Guile pretty much rules the airwaves in SSF4 (so far I think Ibuki or possibly Guy might be the only characters to be able to take out his air game.)

Sisko

I've seen a guile airthrow Adons dive kick move thing he does. The really fast one where he bounces off a wall, the guile just neutral jumped and pressed airthrow instantly , the throw took place only a few pixels off the ground and this all happened in about half a second. Looked fuckin sweet.


However the guile player did not put on his sunglasses afterwards = fail

Doctor DooM

Sisko wrote: »

I've seen a guile airthrow Adons dive kick move thing he does. The really fast one where he bounces off a wall, the guile just neutral jumped and pressed airthrow instantly , the throw took place only a few pixels off the ground and this all happened in about half a second. Looked fuckin sweet.


However the guile player did not put on his sunglasses afterwards = fail

There exists a video of me airthrowing poor a trak on STARTUP of sumo throw.

Also if I recall I have airthrown Bush out of blankas ultra, and many, many shotos out of SRKs.

Airthrows pretty powerful.

FutureGuy

Doctor DooM wrote: »

Future Guy asked me to give a critique of his games.

Thanks for such detailed feedback DooM!

Doctor DooM wrote: »

Ok what you were doing pretty well was footsies, I had to be careful of your cr mk and you always cancelled into a hadoken after it which gave you space and a little bit of chip even if I blocked.

Yep, if I can connect with the c.mk, I'd like to follow it with tatsu as it does more damage. If the c.mk is blocked, i'll throw a hadoken.

Doctor DooM wrote: »

Also I noticed you were using link combos, not the easiest in the world so a good thing if you are able to use them instead of cancels. If you learn a few more it'll make you very versatile and score more stun damage.

The 3 I'm practicing with are

1) c.lp,c.lp, c.lp, c.mk, hadoken,
2) lc.lk, c.lp, c.hp, tatsu
3) c.mp, c.mp, chk

With a few throws mixed in.

Doctor DooM wrote: »

I noticed you were doing all of this until I got a bit more agressive, then I think you started panicking and you started jumping waaaay too much. Your hadoken pressure vanished then too (there was one round when I played Ibuki when we were at opposite ends of the screen when you let me build an entire EX bar throwing kunai in the corner. I then chipped you to death. If you'd been putting me under hadoken pressure I wouldn't have had the chance.)

Yeah absolutely. I checked replays and I seem to get very panicky and try to match agression with agression, and thats just playing right into your hands. A quick escape and back to hadoken pressure from now on.

Doctor DooM wrote: »

You can actually use early jump attacks as part of a zoning game but it should be a once or twice a round thing. Especially as Ryu has m srk which is pretty good.

Noted!

Doctor DooM wrote: »

I think learning how to apply a bit of pressure might help too. Alot of Ryus I see will hadoken, the fadc right after it. Then they have the option of throwing cr lk, or throwing, or SRKing or whatever. But it's a bad guess for the guy on the receiving end as he's got loads of options. You might want to look into that.

Funnily enough, when I can home from work, thats eactly what I started practicing. Saw a video of a very good ryu who would use this alot. Worked on combo 1 above, but focus cancelling the c.mk if blocked and go to throw, or if it all hits, FADC the hadoken into HP>srk. Tough but with some practice i'll get it.

The last major piece of advice I received was that I was wasting my super bar on EX moves that had minimal effect. Because of that, I've been keeping my super bar for the super hadoken. So I'll now have to learn to blend this into my overall strategy.

Doctor DooM wrote: »

So basically less jumping more hadoken and develop more pressure game would be my advice.

Thanks! Good advice!

Doctor DooM wrote: »

In specific to Guile, btw, it's definitely not safe to jump at him just because he's not charging a flash. He has many normals which are great anti air, not to forget the air throw. Guile pretty much rules the airwaves in SSF4 (so far I think Ibuki or possibly Guy might be the only characters to be able to take out his air game.)

I'm looking forward to playing you again. Hopefully it will be more of a game for you!

Dreddybajs

FutureGuy wrote: »

Yep, if I can connect with the c.mk, I'd like to follow it with tatsu as it does more damage. If the c.mk is blocked, i'll throw a hadoken.

Unless I'm misunderstanding you, this isn't possible to do on reaction (Doom was talking about footsie cr. mk where you'd always buffer the fireball not knowing whether the mk will hit or whiff - you can't react to it hitting and cancel into a tatsu).

Doctor DooM

Dreddybajs wrote: »

Unless I'm misunderstanding you, this isn't possible to do on reaction (Doom was talking about footsie cr. mk where you'd always buffer the fireball not knowing whether the mk will hit or whiff - you can't react to it hitting and cancel into a tatsu).

yup future guy, you won't have time to decide. So you make the decision to go safe (cancel into hadoken) or big damage and risky (tatsu which could be punished if blocked.)

Sisko

Yeah its for these reasons people start off combos with little jabs and shorts - even though it'll reduce the over all damage, its called hit confirming. So you've enough time to know to enter in that DP or tatsu.

FutureGuy

Played Bush last night. Destroyed me with Blanka. Everything I practiced over the last few evenings seemed to go out the window in this match up, thanks to the combination of a character who can negate many of my tactics and a superbly talented SF4 player in Bush.

This may sound like a complete cop out, but I'm not going to learn that match up for a while. I can beat 70-80% of Blankas out there which is good enough for now. And in the time it would take to get proficient at this match-up, I could work on 3-4 match-ups against the characters I do play online again and again.

We then moved onto playing his Cody. I played it as if we were starting a new and started my zoning from scratch. My first few games were pretty poor. Zoning from the wrong distance and trying too hard to keep him away from the knife. I was trying to see if I could beat his anti air punch, but was obvious that wasn't going to happen. After a few matches, I began to get to grips with things, zoned a bit better, and took a game and several rounds from him, which is good in my book. I began to hit my strings more consistently too which is bery satisfying. Awesome Cody Bush!

I need to stop panicing when I get pressured. Random srk and jumping creep into my game.

Having played sf for close to 20 years, 18.5 of that have been spent playing friends who frown on the basic concepts of zoning (boring, yawn etc) and even when I was zoning quite well last night, I felt like I was taking the cheap way out. In actual fact, I was being a better player. Fcuk the complainers from now on.

Bush, any advice is welcome!

bush

Theres not much advice I can give you. You are on the right track, much better than the last time we played. I was going to say stop jumping so much but as you were just testing stuff out you already know. You cant jump in on blanka or cody with ryu.
You need to get some combos down off a jab. There were times where you got some cr.jabs in that didnt lead to anything but if you had some combos down you would have finished me off and won. You need to get the most damage when you can get it.
I think you need to manage your meter better too. Dont waste so much on ex fireballs. If you are loosing a round badly you shouldnt really use any meter, just save it for the next round. Try make a comeback without using a meter but if you get to a point where you could win the round use the meter then. Theres no point throwing out a load of desperate ex fireballs when you are more than likely going to loose the round anyway.
Thats about it really, it looks like you just need to get used to blankas mix ups.

FutureGuy

Bush80 wrote: »

Theres not much advice I can give you. You are on the right track, much better than the last time we played.

Thanks, thats very encouraging to hear. I'm still having to think about things as they are not coming out naturally at the moment but I was very happy with some aspects of my play.

Bush80 wrote: »

I was going to say stop jumping so much but as you were just testing stuff out you already know. You cant jump in on blanka or cody with ryu.

Yeah, that wont be happening again. I know now, and thankfuly it's a lesson learned during casuals and not in a tournament environment.

Bush80 wrote: »

You need to get some combos down off a jab. There were times where you got some cr.jabs in that didnt lead to anything but if you had some combos down you would have finished me off and won. You need to get the most damage when you can get it.

Absolutely. The timing to link from c.lp to c.mp>hadoken isn't that strict and I should be hitting it far more consistently. I'm still learning it so hopefully it'll be better for next time.

Bush80 wrote: »

I think you need to manage your meter better too. Dont waste so much on ex fireballs. If you are loosing a round badly you shouldnt really use any meter, just save it for the next round. Try make a comeback without using a meter but if you get to a point where you could win the round use the meter then. Theres no point throwing out a load of desperate ex fireballs when you are more than likely going to loose the round anyway.

Yep, thats one thing I was very disappointed by because it something that I have worked on alot and probably the aspect of my game that I have improved the most on. In fact, I rarely use ex.fireballs anymore, only when I have alot of pressure on an opponent in the corner. You're completely correct about wasting meter during a round I know is a write off. Again, I need to be patient against aggressive opponents.

Bush80 wrote: »

Thats about it really, it looks like you just need to get used to blankas mix ups.

Yeah thanks for the advice. It's highly appreciated!

bush

Dont be afraid to play basic or what you might think is boring either. You are not there to entertain people.

FutureGuy

Bush80 wrote: »

Dont be afraid to play basic or what you might think is boring either. You are not there to entertain people.

Yeah I think thats the biggest thing I have learned in the last 2 weeks playing. Flashy is fun, losing is not

I'm really looking forward to the next Limerick casuals to see if I can give Onion a bit more trouble!

Doctor DooM

Actually Bush, while we have you, I'd take advice on the Blanka match up.

He closes alot of my b n b stuff down. The small jump stops air throws, he seems hard to aa with cr hp and of course I can't boom against him.

I pretty much fight with normals against him, trying to bait slides and punish dashes, and get people to ex ball through boom (which I can block and punish) but it is the only fight in Super so far which feels I am in a constant struggle.

It gets worse when Blanka has Ultra. Because then I can't risk getting too close to pressure and I'm not safe booming from anything less than full screen.

Someone said alot of focus would be a good idea. I don't use much focus with Guile because I hate breaking his charge if I am cancelling and his isn't the best anyway.

Event hubs and SRK don't seem particularly useful on the match up.

Any ideas?

I'm way better than I used to be but it still feels like an upward struggle.

bush

Doctor DooM wrote: »

Actually Bush, while we have you, I'd take advice on the Blanka match up.

He closes alot of my b n b stuff down. The small jump stops air throws, he seems hard to aa with cr hp and of course I can't boom against him.

I pretty much fight with normals against him, trying to bait slides and punish dashes, and get people to ex ball through boom (which I can block and punish) but it is the only fight in Super so far which feels I am in a constant struggle.

It gets worse when Blanka has Ultra. Because then I can't risk getting too close to pressure and I'm not safe booming from anything less than full screen.

Someone said alot of focus would be a good idea. I don't use much focus with Guile because I hate breaking his charge if I am cancelling and his isn't the best anyway.

Event hubs and SRK don't seem particularly useful on the match up.

Any ideas?

I'm way better than I used to be but it still feels like an upward struggle.

Im not sure, I hate this matchup now with every character. I find it the least frustrating with blanka though. Im not sure about using focus either, you can focus the slide alright but I think you are better off concentrating on doing safe booms. You can punish balls with ex boom but you must be standing and sometimes it just doesnt work. Blankas ball is weird.
Im going with blanka for guile from now so we should get some games in so we can both learn the match properly.

FutureGuy

Bush80 wrote: »

Im not sure, I hate this matchup now with every character. I find it the least frustrating with blanka though. Im not sure about using focus either, you can focus the slide alright but I think you are better off concentrating on doing safe booms. You can punish balls with ex boom but you must be standing and sometimes it just doesnt work. Blankas ball is weird.
Im going with blanka for guile from now so we should get some games in so we can both learn the match properly.

One question Bush, maybe it was poor technique, but when Blanka was crouching, I missed my throw a few times. It was like I was grabbing at air?

bush

FutureGuy wrote: »

One question Bush, maybe it was poor technique, but when Blanka was crouching, I missed my throw a few times. It was like I was grabbing at air?

Ye stuff misses sometimes on blanka when hes crouched. It was probably nothing you did wrong.

Doctor DooM

Bush80 wrote: »

Im going with blanka for guile from now so we should get some games in so we can both learn the match properly.

Sounds good to me. I need to score a tournament win on Simon Lau

blag

Doctor DooM wrote: »

Sounds good to me. I need to score a tournament win on Simon Lau

You don't need to worry about his Blanka anymore,he's gone to the dark side so you'll be playing him in mirror matches!