Match Up Advice Thread.

chris mcmahon

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

Abel has a wake-up mix-up game? News to me :pac:

indeed he does, it all revolves around being tricky with his roll but its serious, if you need proof look up rico suave or ifcyipes. can be extremely difficult to guess right in that situation.

cheers unky, do you ever get the problem that when you try to go to srk forums, it just freezes?

unky chop chop

Nope , never had that issue. Must be your hyper global highway meganet intertube connection, or PC(maybe update adobe flash). I usually access through firefox with no probs

chopperbyrne

If you keep neutral jumping when he Runs, then you run the risk of Stop/Step Back>Guacamole/EX.Guacamole.

Dreddybajs

chris mcmahon wrote: »

ohhhhhhhhhh sorry daigo, imagine me asking for match up advice on a match up advice thread, jesus christ. obviously i know what a mix up is, i get them from the shop all the time, white chocolate mice and s**t
fuertes mix up by the way is hands down the hardest mix up in the game to counter, no other character comes close. viper akuma and abel are all mix up masters but none beat fuerte for sheer guess work.

anybody setting up a tournament tonight considering the dlc was released?

lol, I was only messing around, Fuerte has a decent mixup game alright (dunno if it's the best in the game though)

BourketheJerk

chris mcmahon wrote: »

do you ever get the problem that when you try to go to srk forums, it just freezes?

This happens to me on Internet Explorer when I try to visit the forums there. Putting shoryuken on "compatability mode" sorts it out , but it can mess with the formatting. Just use another browser if you're on IE i'd say.

Azza

daltronic wrote:

This is a great thread Azza, i totally agree. SSF4 is as much about knowing matchups as it is technical ability. Can you give any advice for Abel users. Bisons s.MK and s.HK are killing me. Blocked lk scissors seems to give him good frame advantage. Can you falling sky him out of stomps etc..

Sorry took me a while to reply to this.

The Abel:Bison match up is one I'm not really too familiar with. Bison is suppose to have the edge but I'm not sure.

Anyway Bisons goal is to zone you out with his S.MK and S.HK and for sure those pokes are better than any of Abels pokes. So getting around these is Abels main issue. Bison is going spam these alot to keep you out. You can try and jump at Bison with J.MK at this seems tricky for Bison to anti air with his roundhouse. Bison needs to be correctly positioned to avoid trading or loosing clean to Abel's J.MK.

You can try mixing up various stengths rolls to get in. A wise Bison will know he can throw you out of them if you do them close or try to poke you as your roll ends. If you see a poke coming at the end of your roll, EX.TT to throw him out of his poke. Focus Dashing through a poke or scoring a focus crumple of a poke is another way to get in.

Once your in you gotta try and stay in. The better you can preform Abels mix ups the tougher you will make Bisons life. Bison finds Abels mix up hard to deal with and Abel certainly does better damage when he gets in than Bison. Forward + mk pressue is a pain for Bison to deal with. Mixing TT into block strings gives Bison nightmares.

Once you knock Bison down you can cross up him up if you want as he doesn't have a good answer to them other than teleport (which he can't do in the corner). Otherwise use roll to break Bisons charge to prevent an ex.psycho escape. If he does ex.pyscho away from you or teleport dash after him and keep the pressure up. If you can predict an ex.psycho on wake up jump back medium kick can snag it. If you succeed in breaking his backwards charge Bison can ex.devils reverse to get away. Abels neutral jump mp should beat it clean. However if Bison sees that coming he can ex.stomp your neutral jumping medium punch for big damage. Of course if you did not jump and he does an ex.stomp you can simply dash backwards or forwards or walk backwards and punish.

To deal with Headstomp in general play you can simply neutral jump hp or backwards jump hp to deal with or walk backwords and punish when it whiffs. Stomp is only really a problem if Bison corner traps you.

Bisons LK Scissor is 0 frames on block. Its just Bisons normals are quicker following up than Abels.

Other tidbits of info.

Wheel Kick on a waking Bison will stuff ex.devils reverse if Bison tries to use it to escape.

Once you get either ultra 1 or ultra 2 Bison can no longer use ex.psycho to escape on wake. Even a close blocked HP Pyscho Crusher can be punished by either of Abels ultras.

Bison can build meter with Devils Reverse until Abel gets either of his ultras. Once Abel has ultra meter Bison can't DR for meter without giving Abel a free chance to Ultra him.

Abels Rekka is unsafe. In general don't use it unless you can combo into it.

Bison will probably stick with ultra 1 over 2 against Abel as it does more damage. He has no real way of setting either ultra up so it doesn't really matter which one he uses in this match up. If he goes for ultra 2 you just gotta be aware of random ultra gimmicks and know how to avoid and block them.

Thats about all I know in this match up really.

Sisko

How do I punish?

3 characters come to mind here , Sagat Akuma and Bison.

Sagat has a block string involving what I assume is light tiger knee. It seems on block I'm at a disadvantage , as if I try and punish him, it appears his jab can come out earlier and he'll land a combo on me. (he'll follow the light tiger knee with a jab)

Whats the correct way of dealing with this?

And again , scissor kicks from bison , there really is nothing I can do but keep blocking once he's doing his usual lk lk l.scissors x2 job on me , or is there?

Akumas dive kick mix up.

Whats the correct way in dealing with this, I'll keep blocking but eventually he'll air throw me and it just feels like I'm trapped.

Azza

Which character are you using?

If your a shoto character you should know that Bison'sc.lk x 2/5 xx scissors is not a safe string. There is a 2 frame gap on each block that you can reversal out of. So if your Ryu or Cammy you can mash DP during Bisons block string. With Ibuki you could probably use something like her ex.dp kick move, what ever its called.

Bison Light Scissors Kick is 0 frames on block meaning no one has the advantage and its all down to what the opponent does next.

I think I have gone over the choice of options Bison has after a blocked LK Scissor Kick before in this thread. Look them up. There is a counter option for each of them.

As for Sagat, he has a block string that ends with LK Tiger Knee, if performed correctly it should leave him safe, or at least it did in vanilla SF 4. I know Tiger Knee frame data has changed and Tiger Knee is unsafer in SSF IV on block.

Sisko

The 2 frame gap is while bison is landing his c.lk's? Good to know.


As ibuki I've more options actually v. bisons scissor kicks on block. As ryu I'll sometimes DP and it'll land and reversal will come up. But I dunno what the bison was doing for when that works , so I'm not entirely sure what happened there. As you say its even frames on block so I can't be hitting his recovery frames. Unless the Bison used the wrong scissor kicks I presume.

As for sagats block string yeah he seems safe, I guess I'm looking for advice on the correct way of dealing with it , the do's and don't's really. Same with akumas thing

Azza

No its a 2 frame gap on block not hit. Could be worth your while mashing anyway cause if Bison misses a link you can reversal him.

Ryu's LP DP is 3 frame on start up. It hits on frame 3. Its got alot of invincible frames.

1~2f invincible, 3~4f cannot be thrown, 3~16f lower body invincibility

MP and HP DP also start up in 3 frames.
1~4f invincible, 5~16f lower body invincibility

EX DP is also 3 frames and runs body is complete invincible from 1~16f.

Any move that intersects with the active hitbox during his invincible frames Ryu will loose, unless they have invincible frames themsleves in which case niether character will score a hit.

Therefore if Bison attempts any normal either low or high or non ex specials after a blocked scissors in range of Ryu's DP the DP wins clean. Bison can use ex. specials with invincible frames like ex.psycho crusher and if Ryu does a DP at the same time it will most likely result in both moves missing each other.

Obvious the risk of DP is if Bison doesn't nothing but block after the LK scissors, Ryu is massively punishable.

Bison's LK scissor is totally unpunishable by anyone on block. If you block it Bison is 100% safe.

Bisons 3 other scissor kicks are unsafe if blocked close.

MK Scissors -5
HK and EX Scissors -8

If spaces them right though they can be safe if it hits on last active frame and pushes his opponent far enough away.

Owwmykneecap

Azza knows all about them.

Doctor DooM

Owwmykneecap wrote: »

Azza knows all about them.

Is that speedboat on the left?

Owwmykneecap

Sisko said he was in a band!

I'm sorry for hopping the barrier at oxegen2005 to leave your show

Doctor DooM

Anywho's I'd often use a slow boomafter the scissor kick loop to keep bison out.

Sisko

yeah with guile I deffo find it easier too.


Cheers azza , I must get better at faster dping.

Kneecaps I really don't get the pic

Anyone have any tips regarding akumas thing?

Orim

It's the Frames.

EDIT : As regards Akuma don't get knocked down.

Doctor DooM

There's a question.

Working on a few gaps in my game lately and one is an underuse of focus attack.

Is Akuma's air tatsu armour breaking?

I'm wondering if when he jumps for the ambiguous cross up can I FA and have time to backdash/ release the attack as appropriate.

Orim

It's not armour breaking but I don't think you could use FA on it for some reason. I'd have to check that though.

Placebo

chun: is there any way to armour break on reaction, would legs work?

Doctor DooM

Placebo wrote: »

chun: is there any way to armour break on reaction, would legs work?

Isn't hasa- haza- flippy overhead kick move armour breaking?

PPC

Its not. Only SBK and both ultras are armour breaking. Hazan Shuu is definetely focusable

bush

Placebo wrote: »

chun: is there any way to armour break on reaction, would legs work?

You can dash ex legs or combo st.mp into ex legs. They would take a bit practice to get down

BanjoB

Ex hasanshu is armor breaking on reversal.

fake_roogle

BanjoB wrote: »

Ex hasanshu is armor breaking on reversal.

Isn't any special move done as a reversal an armour break?

chopperbyrne

BanjoB wrote: »

Ex hasanshu is armor breaking on reversal.

Aren't all specials armour breaking on reversal?

*Even from China, Roogle managed to post quicker!

Placebo

i dont think akumas SRK is armour breaker

Scavenger XIII

fake_roogle wrote: »

Isn't any special move done as a reversal an armour break?

chopperbyrne wrote: »

Aren't all specials armour breaking on reversal?

Yes.

BanjoB

Your right actually. I just remembered it getting me out if a sticky situation last night.

The Hound

For people wondering about getting out of akumas vortex. There's really not much you can do but teleport if you have it, otherwise, guess right. The cross up tatsu is not armor breaking but if you focus absorb the first hit then I can punish afterwards if you try dash. Its a guessing game unless you know how to do auto correct and I time the tatsu wrong.

Demon flip kick can beat almost every DP in the game on wake, if timed correctly that is. Also it can make some DP's whiff if done right. Cammys DP beats it i think. It beats a lot of ex moves like chuns ex upside down tatsu. whatever its called! Just be happy you're not an Abel player!

For some players, once knocked down they never get back up against a pro Akuma.

Watch this for some Pro vortex play http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8i4tqS7B_kw. Arguably the best Sim in the world guessing wrong too many times against Eita. Just go to 4:17 to see the fight.

Doctor DooM

Placebo wrote: »

i dont think akumas SRK is armour breaker

It's a multi hitting move though.