NEED HELP! Construction project: Spiral Stairecase

sKepTics_George

SKEPTICAL:

For my leaving cert Construction class i have decided to make a Spiral staircase, i am doing higher level construction, and i am 3 months behind schedule, i would greatly appreciate any help i can get,

thanks, George

cork1

well are you making it to scale??? if so you need to know the regs. how far progressed are you???

sKepTics_George

I have nothing done in it, im am not sure what scale to make it, i was thinking that it should have about 12 steps and no taller than 2.5 feet, the base will be around 5 inch diameter, also i am not sure if i should use a wooden handrail or something like a chain or some string, Please help me, George

tabby aspreme

to make it to a realistic scale you will need 14 or 15 steps which in full size would get you on to a landing above an 8 to 9 ft ceiling .using a rise[step height] of 7" , with a 1:6 scale you should end up with a height of 18" to 20" and a diameter of 11" to 13"

jack of all

Would it not be better to use one of the standard accepted scales; 1: 5 would be a good one. A wooden handrail would be difficult to shape, would it be acceptable to use a 1/2" (15mm ext. diameter) copper or plastic pipe? This could look a little chunky as this would approximate to a 75mm dia. full size. You can get flexible copper of smaller bore (3/8" or 9mm I think) used for heating oil lines to boilers. Even at 1: 5 this will be quite a small scale model, only 540mm or so in height overall; is it practical to construct real joinery with scaled down joints at this scale, or is merely a model?

S.L.F

jack of all wrote: »

A wooden handrail would be difficult to shape, would it be acceptable to use a 1/2" (15mm ext. diameter) copper or plastic pipe?

You could always use a 1/4" (6mm) wooden dowel and steam it into shape.

sKepTics_George

I like both the ideas for the handrail, what would you's say if i was to use some string or maybe a small chain, (for the handrail) ?
Do you think i should stain or varnish the model, (if so, should i do it before the pieces are put together or after ?
What is the thinnest dowel piece i can get. ?
Your response is greatly appreciated, George.

tabby aspreme

what type of wood are you using ?, linseed or danish oil may be a finishing option as you wipe any surplus off before it drys so avoiding any runs which are hard to prevent when varnishing small bits

tabby aspreme

on a full size stairs rope or chain would not be practical as rope would burn and fingers could get caught in chain keep this in mind, small bore copper pipe is available from motor factors for use in brake pipes on cars etc. if you are going to use wooden dowel ,ash or beech will bend easiest but you may have to make it yourself if you want it in small diameter

S.L.F

First I'm not a joiner, I'm a cabinetmaker (properly trained not learned it all from the computer like some of the characters I've come across on Boards or other forums) so I'm not qualified to speak about stairs but can speak about finishing and wood in general

sKepTics_George wrote: »

I like both the ideas for the handrail, what would you's say if i was to use some string or maybe a small chain, (for the handrail) ?

I'd use dowel and make it 6mm dowel, personally I don't like the idea of using other materials to make a wooden project.

Are you going to have a center column if so keep a section of it seperate so when you go to steam the dowel you have something to work to (or against).

Pre-drill for a small pin in the dowel (1mm) then nail it to the column the using steam (from a kettle mind your fingers and your ears) shape it around to the top of the column the when you have it at the top nail it up there too (you'll probably need spacers between the rail and the column).

Then go from the middle again to the bottom and nail it down there.

You might need to use a g-cramp to hold it in place too.

Just remember patience is a trademan's friend.

Once you have it shaped let it dry at least over night then the following day remove it and leave it safe.

sKepTics_George wrote: »

Do you think i should stain or varnish the model, (if so, should i do it before the pieces are put together or after ?

I wouldn't stain it, your examiners need to see the piece as it is.

I'd finish it first with 2 coats of Danish oil buff it clear the joints of finish then assemble it, then give it a final thin (very thin) coat of oil

sKepTics_George wrote: »

What is the thinnest dowel piece i can get. ?
Your response is greatly appreciated, George.

It's been a while since I've bought dowel, but I know you can buy inlay and that is 1.5mm square so I see no reason why you can't buy 3mm dowel.

Regarding which wood to use I'd use red deal it's easy to get, not too bad to work with, it's cheap, and it doesn't look too bad when it's finished.

kadman

Is it a model, or an exact scale replica, including joint detail. is it a closed string, open string or cut string.

If its a model, quickest and simplest option is a spiral staircase open string.

Each tread is identical pie shaped treads. Arranged around a central turned column. each tread is seperated by a rising turned tube .

So, column, add tube, add tread, add tube, add tread and so on. Balustrades are arranged so that they start at the back of one tread, and go up through the front of the tread above, and into a hand rail. As each balustrade is added, it would add rigidity. Quickest handrail is copper pipe wound in a coil on the pattern diameter, and then pulled up to the correct height. trickiest bit would be attaching the tops of the balustrade to the handrail. For a model this would be quick.

If its an exact replica thats another issue. The smaller it is the more difficult it would be. Your scale would be dependant on your tools available.

Post up the brief.

kadman

sKepTics_George

#8) Red Deal.

#9) Sounds good, how should i attach the handrail ?

#10) I don't have much patience but i will try my best,
Where can i purchase some "Danish oil" ?
Red Deal it is so,

#11) It is a model, I am using a threaded 6mm rod, as the inner column,
maybe a circular 5inch diameter base.

( Any tips or tricks i should know about and do you's think i should mention that i got help from you guys/girls in my folder ? )

cork1

if i were you i wouldnt mention it. what they dont know wont hurt them

S.L.F

sKepTics_George wrote: »

#8) Red Deal.

#9) Sounds good, how should i attach the handrail ?

Need to see your design before I could answer that but probably drill a hole into it and put a wooden pin with some glue on it.

(can anybody answer a question do exam pieces have to be glued or left open so examiners can inspect the quality of the joints)

sKepTics_George wrote: »

#10) I don't have much patience but i will try my best,
Where can i purchase some "Danish oil"?

Do please try to have some patience...

Any hardware shop

sKepTics_George wrote: »

#11) It is a model, I am using a threaded 6mm rod, as the inner column,
maybe a circular 5inch diameter base.

Could you use a brush handle for the center column

sKepTics_George wrote: »

( Any tips or tricks i should know about and do you's think i should mention that i got help from you guys/girls in my folder ? )

Tricks are earned in the course of time you don't get them for free.

It is you who is making the piece not us so I would have no hesitation about mentioning you asked peoples opinions on how to do it.

kadman

Dont be under any illusion that the handrail will be an easy proposition in timber, because it wont. Its the trickiest part of a spiral stair. There is no need for the handrail to be constructed around the central column, as it should be constructed around the larger external dimater of the stair in plan.

The handrail in copper, or steel as in a brakeline or similar, would look similar to a stainless steel handrail, enhancing the over all look. By using a pipe, when you drill for the balustrades, as you are in to a hollow centre, your line up for the balustrade angle will be easier , than into a solid. By using balustrades through the treads, your are doing away with the work related to constructing an external string, saving you time.

Normal spiral stair construction would require a dummy drum for the internal markout, and one for the external markout. The internal string, if there was one, would be laminated around the inner drum. And the external string would be constructed around the external false drum, as well as the handrail.
Regardless of scale.

Pie shaped treads around a central column, and a steel or copper handrail would be the quickest, if the brief allows.

kadman

sKepTics_George

#14).I am not sure about if we are allowed to glue up the joints, i will find out on Wednesday (when I am back in school).

I was considering using a brush handle, I think i will.
Is there a particular method which i should use when drilling out the center of the "brush handle" ?.

I think it would be cool to mention that i got help from all these extremely helpful, handsome and intelligent people xp.
I can add it into the part of the folder where i say that i got my pictures from the web.


#15).I like the idea of the handrail, i simply don't have the time to learn how to bend a dowel rod with steam.

I am not going to lie and say that i understood everything you said, remember that this is not what i usually do and that i am an idiot.
But (am i allowed to start a sentence with "But") i get what you are saying and i want to keep it as simple as possible.
There is no brief, I have to write my own. I think i will write out my brief at the end when everything is finished so that i don't restrict myself to anything.

Thanks again,

cork1

steam bending a dowel is easy! get a length of pvc pipe (sewer pipe or waste water pipe or something) and block one end put in your length of dowel and empty two or three kettles od boiling water then block the second end. leave the pipe sealed for abut 15 to 20 minutes and the dowel should be fairly flexible when it comes out.

S.L.F

sKepTics_George wrote: »

I was considering using a brush handle, I think i will.
Is there a particular method which i should use when drilling out the center of the "brush handle" ?

Why not use something like a shovel handle it would be bigger then a brush handle.

When I'm drilling a 19mm dowel out (say a 10mm drill bit) I get a 5mm long bit (200mm) then drill half way through the dowel then turn it over then drill through the other side then change bits to the 10mm bit and drill through and it will come thought to the center of the top.

I don't need to tell you to try and keep it reasonably straight and not let it go through the side.

sKepTics_George wrote: »

#15).I like the idea of the handrail, i simply don't have the time to learn how to bend a dowel rod with steam.

Cork1 has a great idea for that and a new one for me it would not have crossed my mind to do it that way.

sKepTics_George wrote: »

I think it would be cool to mention that i got help from all these extremely helpful, handsome and intelligent people xp.

You could at least thank everybody else while you are at it they helped a (little) bit too

cork1 wrote: »

steam bending a dowel is easy! get a length of pvc pipe (sewer pipe or waste water pipe or something) and block one end put in your length of dowel and empty two or three kettles od boiling water then block the second end. leave the pipe sealed for abut 15 to 20 minutes and the dowel should be fairly flexible when it comes out.

Brilliant, very clever

sKepTics_George

Ok if i was to steam bend a dowel,

Q1). What thickness should it be ?

Q2). How do attach it to the balusters ?

Q3). What is the maximum curve i can do, (i know it depends on the size of the dowel) ?

cork1

sKepTics_George wrote: »

Ok if i was to steam bend a dowel,

Q1). What thickness should it be ?

Q2). How do attach it to the balusters ?

Q3). What is the maximum curve i can do, (i know it depends on the size of the dowel) ?

1. well any spiral stairs ive put together the centre post is usually 120-150mm diametre and then the hand rail would be 50-60 mm so just to show you if your post is 50mm then you want about a 5 or 6mm handrail.

2. drill a hole in the hand rail and let the spindles go up into it. glue and clamp them in and they will go nowhere.

3. the longer you steam the dowel for the better the curve. if you need to make a couple of small cuts in the dowel so it can bend easier.

kadman

Before you start bending any dowel rods for handrail, you would need to get the setting out details in order so that you are bending the handrail , to the correct curve and the correct rise.

If this project is intended to replicate a full size spiral staircase, then cutting the handrail to facilitate curving is not an option for you, as it is never done in full size staircases. Bending the dowel is a straight forward process, which has been explained to you, setting out the staircase in order that the handrail is correctly curved, has not been outlined for you, maybe it should.

kadman

kadman

Minimum amount of components, maximum effect.

kadman

kadman

Some quick googles will give you some idea of the construction process involved , that have not been outlined for you yet.

http://jself.com/stair/Stair.htm

Attaching the balustrades for instance into a wooden handrail , requires that the correct angle to drill into the handrail has not been explained , nor how to calculate it yet. You need a chronological method of construction outlined first, otherwise you will not be able to assess the difficulty levels in each process. Attaching a handrail into a hollow tube requires no calculation of angle, and allows for flexibility in the fitment of the balustrade.


kadman

Quick clip showing single spiral, double helix, swept spiral ect.

http://www.doityourself.com/video/Adding-a-Spiral-Staircase-to-Your-Home-62644238
kadman

This might help to give you some ideas for your brief.

http://www.salterspiralstair.com/Salter_Spiral_Stairs.pdf

kadman

sKepTics_George

I cannot say how grateful i am that you guys/girls would go into so much detail and be so helpful, Thank you so much.

I have e-mailed that guy (jself.com) he sent my some photos of stairs he built, he was very helpful.

them links you sent me are really good, and the photo in the CAD program is brilliant may i have your permission to use it in my folder ?

I am handing up my cutting list for the thread's tomorrow,

What do yous think i should use as a base, i was think something like a circular stand which the column would slot into, ?

SpitfireIV

sKepTics_George wrote: »

What do yous think i should use as a base, i was think something like a circular stand which the column would slot into, ?

A piece of polished marble or limestone?! might be nice, a thin, circular piece with a hole drilled in the middle!

As the stairs is going to be of wood I'd try and make the base of a none wood material to differenciate it from the stairs (what I mean is, dont make it from a piece of pine or something and just varnish it, you want to give the stairs a bit of uumpff!!). Perhaps a circular piece of MDF, plain edge, no molding or anything, sprayed black and given a few coats of laquer to give it a really glassy look (and reflect the stairs in it!!) might look the part!

I think black is the color to go with as the stairs will be a light pine color, so the stairs will really stand out!

kadman

Of course you can use the cad picture. If you want the cad file I can e mail it to you, so just pm me your e mail address.

It would be helpful if you outline exactly your brief, and what route and design you intend to go with. Then the experienced guys here will be able to give you more specific help.

As I,ve said before, a chronological list of your work processes. then you will be able to ask more specific questions in relation to problem areas for you, before you get to them. There is no point launching into a project, unless you can be sure for yourself that you have all the bases covered.

kadman

sKepTics_George

Thank you very much kadman,

Plan:

1), Cut out threads, I am going them into squares first, then drill the holes for the balusters and the center column.

2), Cut outer column dowel (brush handle) into the individual rises, drill out the center (6mm) for the inner threaded rod.

3), Cut out circular base, im going to use two different pieces just to make it thicker glue them and drill out hole for column to slot into.

4), Cut out balusters.

5), Stain everything, and paint the base.

6), Put together,and tighten everything together with two nuts one on each end of the column, and use the danish oil.

(I am still unsure about the handrail and was wondering if i could get away with not using one)

I should have just made a box or something !

kadman

Can you give an outline of the machines you have used, and ability with them.

1. If you have used a router before, you could cut a template of the treads in mdf. And use that to route the rest. I would only cut 2 at this stage, and see how they work for you, no point in machining all of them to find something is amiss.

2. I assume by drilling the brush handle, you are using these as sockets between the treads. If you have access to a pillar drill, then cut a couple of sockets to length, and drill the centre out on a pillar drill. Make a jig to hold the sockets in the drill bench, drill a bit of mdf the size of the socket, pop in the socket and drill. Or use a wood turning lathe to make and bore the sockets.

3. Straight for ward really. make sure you countersing the base nut under the base bottom. Yo would only drill for the threaded rod here, not the full diameter of the column.

4. Cut out only a couple of balustrades, until you see how things are fitting for you.

5. Stain and paint everthing after a dry fit of all the componenst. No point in having nice finished pieces that look great , but dont fit together.

6. Once you have two or three balustrades loose fitted to 2 or 3 treads , you will be able to get a centre to centre measurement across the top of the balustrades good enough to allow you to drill a short length of curved material. If you are allowed to use a hollow tube for a handrail, this will allow you some flexibility in drilling. And because the centre of the tube is hollow, this will allow you to angle the balustrade to suit. This is the one area for you that may be a bit of trial and error. failing that you will have to create a circular drum that you can laminate two or three pieces a round that will form a wooden handrail. The plan for that would be a drawing of the rise and external tread width on a sheet of paper for the entire stairs in 2d, and then print and attach the paper around your circular drum, setting out done. Its like drawing a stairs around a tin of beans.

So let us know , the machines and tools you have access to, and your level of competence in them.

kadman

sKepTics_George

Ok i have all the machines you have mentioned, i have never used the pillar drill, ( i am in a massive rush i have soccer practice tonight i can't go into too much detail, but i will tomorrow evening i just thought it would be a good idea to leave a small comment so that you don't loose interest/faith in me)
Thank you so much,

kadman

No problem, we know you are not going to leave the country just yet:D

Pillar drill for all the obvious uses.

Router for the production of the treads.

Woodturning lathe, maybe for making the socket pieces between the treads , on the centre column threaded bar.

You could cut a tread piece with a jigsaw or bandsaw, and finish it to the required size. Use the router to cut another tread, using the first one as a template. use mdf or top grade plywood for the treads. Drill the threaded bar holes in both treads.Place the two treads , one on top of the other. Put a piece of the threaded bar piece into both treads, and the revolve the top tread around to the position you need it to be in. Then drill the top tread balustrade hole, through the top tread at the front, and into the bottom tread at the back. Revolve the top tread back to the starting position.

You now have the top tread front hole to drill the bottom tread front hole. And the bottom tread back hole , to drill the back hole in the top tread. I hope it doesn,t sound too confusing.

Only make 2-3 treads at the moment, and a couple of balustrades. With the holes drilled, you could now assemble 3 treads, to see how things are progressing for you.

kadman

galwaydude18

Hows the project going?