What's wrong with a banking inquiry?

Shea O'Meara

I can see why Lenihan and Cowen are against it, but are we really going to sit back while the unaddressed issues in the banking sector are swept under the carpet giving financial institutions an undeserved clean slate?

Where's our representation, why are Lenihan and Cowen not looking after our interests?

Are they simply keeping their buddy's sweet as they know they screwed up so much there's no point in trying to curry favour with the general public?

Alcatel

Many inquiries end up implicating politicians in some wrongdoing. If the historical trend were to continue...

Liam Byrne

They'll probably claim that it's because of the cost, and refer to the cost of the tribunals..... remember those yokes, obstructed and delayed left right and centre (thereby contributing massively to their costs) by certain FF politicians.

So it's unlikely that they'll do what the public wants, citing "it's not about blame, it's about recovery" as their reasoning.

For cost reasons only, of course :rolleyes:

aurelius79

There should be a criminal investigation into the bank scandal that should extend to the financial regulator, the revenue commissioner, minister for finance, and the taoiseach.

Inquiries and tribunals have proven themselves to be nothing more than a waste of taxpayer's money. I say charge these people with corruption, tax evasion, and gross negligence, drag them in front of a criminal court and let them defend their actions. No half-arsed suspended sentences either.

P. Breathnach

aurelius79 wrote: »

There should be a criminal investigation into the bank scandal that should extend to the financial regulator, the revenue commissioner, minister for finance, and the taoiseach.

Inquiries and tribunals have proven themselves to be nothing more than a waste of taxpayer's money. I say charge these people with corruption, tax evasion, and gross negligence, drag them in front of a criminal court and let them defend their actions. No half-arsed suspended sentences either.

Why waste time? Let's just line them up and shoot them. Sentence first, verdict afterwards.

Sand

Why waste time? Let's just line them up and shoot them. Sentence first, verdict afterwards.

Would certainly eliminate the costs issue.

Mr. Incognito

Anglo was the personal piggy bank of the Developers giving loans to finance the property bubble. This made a lot of money while the bubble was going well.

Developers were the personal donors of most if not all Fianna Fail politicians. Remember that Junior Minister getting his house done up for free. Bertie getting "loaned" a house etc, and the Tent down at the Galway races.

The bubble burst and Lenihan and the boys jumped straight in to rescue it to the tune of 4 Billion +, a bank they described as "instututional" which hasn't lent a red cent since September 2008.

Then they jumped to bail out the rest of the developers loans because God knows the banks might demand interest and foreclose- I can't see NAMA, the great "sit on it and wait/hope/pray" doing that, based on, wait for it "representations from the banks". They DIDN'T EVEN AUDIT THE LOANBOOK!! so our 54 Billion is a magical fairytale figure- no-one knows how much those loans are really worth.

Quite simply, an investigation into the banks is going to reveal a few obvious things.

1. The extent of the corruption within the banks themselves when it came to falling over each other to fling out loans to developers and sidetracking that went on.

2. The lobbying that went on from developers to politicians who rolled back a lot of the red tape that contributed to the bubble.

3. Lastly the close ties between the developers and the politicians themselves, and by close I mean that a LOT of Finna Fail politicians were granted interests in developments in exchange for favourable planning permissions etc. Not quite an upfront bribe but a nice tidy little private rental income to do line their nests. THAT is what they do not want coming out. That the politicians, were hand in hand with them the whole way and THAT is why they are bailing the developers loans out.

If that hit the public domain, well, we're not talking losing elections. We're talking jail-times.

The Saint

Simple. Turkeys don't vote for Christmas.

Alcatel

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Why waste time? Let's just line them up and shoot them. Sentence first, verdict afterwards.

Cats and dogs in the street can tell you that politicians, bankers, the so called 'golden circle' have been in cahoots for years, and it wouldn't surprise me in the least to find some politico's currently sitting in the Dail and other positions of power in Ireland who would, if all the dirty washing was to be aired in public, end up losing their jobs. I doubt they'd go to jail, unless they committed similar crimes in countries like the US or, say, Iceland.

But nobody here is sentencing anyone. A fair inquiry would be a good idea. A Dail inquiry would be best, but the courts have, as per usual, decided that parliamentary oversight is no good, and their unelected arses should have more power than ours.

Look at the US, where executives of the banks were being torn asunder by elected individuals just weeks after their failings became public.

Hell, look too at the Irish priest who stole a few million in Florida... Ended up on an RTE interview in an orange jumpsuit, chained at hands and feet, with an armed guard standing behind him.

Our golden circle? Don't even get an investigation. That's criminal.

Flamed Diving

Iceland are having such an inquiry, no?

Shea O'Meara

It will all come out in ten or twenty years. Such is the shelf life of Fianna Fail greasiness. Of course by then the players will be dead, retired or just plain forgetful and the Fianna Fail of the day will claim they've cleaned house since then, that was the old Fianna Fail...so the circle continues.
B******s.

A criminal organisation is described as 'Criminal activity carried out by an organized enterprise.'

Liam Byrne

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

Of course by then the players will be dead, retired or just plain forgetful

You forgot

- they'll be perfectly well
- they'd be called before the enquiry
- they'll suddenly be almost terminally ill
- they'll be excused
- they'll be pictured riding a horse in the South of France
- they'll be called again
- while flying back they'll take a turn for the worse
....etc, etc.....

Not to mention having sufficient memory to write fictional, self-congratulatory books while simultaneously not remembering key issues to the point of providing 5 or 6 different "accounts" :rolleyes:

imme

it's required, it's inevitable, it will happen.

i57dwun4yb1pt8

The FF team under 'Durty' Ahern and 'Cowardly' Cowen have sold out the irish people from under their feet .

And yes it will all come out when they are old and safe , id say the real dirt is lying there to be seen in the future and i bet its horrific - we all know it , we all smell the hidden stench - we all know its there .

sold us out and have / will walk away loaded and comfortable .

Treason , in any other country .

AlekSmart

One of the most incredible aspects of the new Governor of the Central Bank`s call for an inquiry was the speed of an Taoiseach`s response.

Mr Cowen is not now nor ever has he been known for his rapid-reaction times to any issue.

However in this case,it was as if he had been hooked up to the National Grid and the switch thrown....NO NO..Thrice NO....NÍL ...Over my dead body etc etc..

Now he may be perfectly correct in his assertions that everything will be fine,but any seasoned observer of Brian Cowen will have immediately spotted a huge contradiction when he fell of the fence and said "Offaly sez NO !!"

This single exhibition of Political Will was enough to make me VERY suspicious...In fact it`s now probably a certainty that Mr Cowen`s attempt to stifle any Inquiry will fail...eventually.

It`s only a matter of time

Spiritoftheseventies

According to a media pundit on last word yesterday there will be come constitutional referendum surrounding banking furore in the second half of the year. But issue is expected to be resolved where "witnesses" will be compelled to be attend. Once the banks are recapitalized progress is expected to be made.

jmayo

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Why waste time? Let's just line them up and shoot them. Sentence first, verdict afterwards.

There is a lot to be said for the way the Romanians dealt with Ceausescu.
It was way quicker and cheaper than expensive tribunal that drags on for years with end result that a couple of lower officials go to jail and the politicos continue through their political dynastys.

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Iceland are having such an inquiry, no?

Iceland's state prosecutr hired Eva Joly, who led Europe’s biggest ever fraud investigations into bribery and corruption at Elf, as a special consultant to a 20-member team to investigate believed criminal activity in the period preceding the collapse of the Icelandic banks.
This is expected to involve several of Iceland's business and banking leaders.
They reckon it will take 2 to 3 years to build up a case.
So yes they are doing somehting and they had change of political leadership as well.

Whereas we, well it's business as usual with a few heads eventually moving on with nice golden handshakes.

AlekSmart wrote: »

One of the most incredible aspects of the new Governor of the Central Bank`s call for an inquiry was the speed of an Taoiseach`s response.

Mr Cowen is not now nor ever has he been known for his rapid-reaction times to any issue.

However in this case,it was as if he had been hooked up to the National Grid and the switch thrown....NO NO..Thrice NO....NÍL ...Over my dead body etc etc..

Now he may be perfectly correct in his assertions that everything will be fine,but any seasoned observer of Brian Cowen will have immediately spotted a huge contradiction when he fell of the fence and said "Offaly sez NO !!"

This single exhibition of Political Will was enough to make me VERY suspicious...In fact it`s now probably a certainty that Mr Cowen`s attempt to stifle any Inquiry will fail...eventually.

It`s only a matter of time

It would be interesting to know what loans our politicans have and where they were obtained ?
Maybe clowen got a few nice loans like his predecessor Mr McGreevey courtesy of Fingers ?

As I have said on other threads it doesn't matter who is appointed as head of CB, IFRSA or ODCE nothing will change unless there is a political willingness for a major shakeup with people being prosecuted for activities such as fraud, insider dealings and non adherence to company law.
Sadly ff don't see a need for this as can be highlighted by the above reactions.

One example of this was how bertie the sleveen did not want to allocate extra resources to the ODCE (labour inspectors at the time AFAIK) because he saw it as unnecessary and staff allocation needed to be prioritised.
I suppose he wanted them to go to DDDA or HSE, wastes of space quangoes that have screwed the Irish taxpayers. :rolleyes:

Spiritoftheseventies

jmayo wrote: »

Maybe clowen got a few nice loans like his predecessor Mr McGreevey courtesy of Fingers ?

Freudian slip?

imme

bayviewclose wrote: »

According to a media pundit on last word yesterday there will be come constitutional referendum surrounding banking furore in the second half of the year. But issue is expected to be resolved where "witnesses" will be compelled to be attend. Once the banks are recapitalized progress is expected to be made.

do tell more.
a referendum in the context of Abbeylara?

Spiritoftheseventies

imme wrote: »

do tell more.
a referendum in the context of Abbeylara?

would have to listen back. Basically mentioned that two or three referenda would be introduced and one would be banking related. i would think that some people are using some loophole in constitution to avoid attending oireachtas committee hearings. So we would have to vote on that to remove that loophole. In other words compelability requires a referendum.

P. Breathnach

jmayo wrote: »

There is a lot to be said for the way the Romanians dealt with Ceausescu.
It was way quicker and cheaper than expensive tribunal that drags on for years with end result that a couple of lower officials go to jail and the politicos continue through their political dynastys...

I do not like the type of tribunals that we currently have, but I would much sooner have them than mob rule and lynchings.

Many of those people currently held in opprobrium broke no laws and did nothing dishonest or immoral: they simply made bad decisions but did so in good faith.

Some people did wrong, and did so knowingly or recklessly. But I doubt if anybody intended to inflict the sort of damage that ensued from a sort of collective madness.

I am not sure, however, that we need a major inquiry. Most of what happened is already reasonably well known (even if some of those commenting on matters do not understand it). There are a few unanswered questions, some of which might need to be investigated as criminal matters. The residue of unknown stuff that should be exposed is relatively small, and some form of focused inquiry might be useful.

Shea O'Meara

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I do not like the type of tribunals that we currently have, but I would much sooner have them than mob rule and lynchings.

Many of those people currently held in opprobrium broke no laws and did nothing dishonest or immoral: they simply made bad decisions but did so in good faith.

Some people did wrong, and did so knowingly or recklessly. But I doubt if anybody intended to inflict the sort of damage that ensued from a sort of collective madness.

I am not sure, however, that we need a major inquiry. Most of what happened is already reasonably well known (even if some of those commenting on matters do not understand it). There are a few unanswered questions, some of which might need to be investigated as criminal matters. The residue of unknown stuff that should be exposed is relatively small, and some form of focused inquiry might be useful.

'Known' is of no use. We knew Haughey was corrupt for decades. We know Bertie should be charged. We know McCreevy got gambling debts cancelled for favours in return.
It's the proof that's needed, which will need to come from an inquiry. If stricter guidlines are laid out ahead of time maybe we can avoid another epic tribunal.

Spiritoftheseventies

How would this enquiry go. How many heads could potentially role. I'm guessing the term "not in the commissions remit" will be coming up a lot.

Shea O'Meara

It would be good if we could have some form of legal proceeding where those found to have committed crimes could be actually made pay. Unlikely though as essentially the state would need to make a case against itself, unless we get rid before hand.

Spiritoftheseventies

Can it be "proved" that there was wrongdoing over the book-keeping at Anglo Irish and Irish Nationwide. That would seem to be one of the major points if they get this enquiry off the ground.

LookBehindYou

A simpler way and cheaper way is to enable the power to CAB or the fraud squad, and give them the extra resourses needed to do a speedy investigation.
The benefit of doing this is that the evidence they gather CAN be used to jail the wrongdoers

Spiritoftheseventies

LookBehindYou wrote: »

A simpler way and cheaper way is to enable the power to CAB or the fraud squad, and give them the extra resourses needed to do a speedy investigation.
The benefit of doing this is that the evidence they gather CAN be used to jail the wrongdoers

Would think they have all the documents they need off Anglo Irish at this stage. But while FitzPatrick refuses to go before an enquiry there isn't much they can to do until this referendum is pushed through.

LookBehindYou

bayviewclose wrote: »

Would think they have all the documents they need off Anglo Irish at this stage. But while FitzPatrick refuses to go before an enquiry there isn't much they can to do until this referendum is pushed through.

enquiry ??? It would be a criminal investigation, and he would have no choice.
All it needs is the go ahead to investigate.

Spiritoftheseventies

LookBehindYou wrote: »

enquiry ??? It would be a criminal investigation, and he would have no choice.
All it needs is the go ahead to investigate.

Yes but he was called to some oireachtas hearing before christmas and he wouldn't attend.

AlekSmart

Would think they have all the documents they need off Anglo Irish at this stage.

I would imagine that the significant gap between the revelations and the knock on the door at Stephens Green left more than enough time for the Anglo Irish shredders to do their job!

Flamed Diving

AlekSmart wrote: »

I would imagine that the significant gap between the revelations and the knock on the door at Stephens Green left more than enough time for the Anglo Irish shredders to do their job!

This would leave black holes in accounting, if said black holes cannot be accounted for, then it is a criminal offence. Of course, if one is the conspiracy theory type, this can all be magically waved away as Freemasonry, or something.