US firms call for overhaul of Irish education

ei.sdraob

well we had a thread on how poor education is one of the causes of our problems (despite billions extra being spend with not much to show for it), with calls to scrap Irish, Religion etc and/or introduce new languages in a previous thread here

now we have this > http://www.independent.ie/education/latest-news/us-firms-call-for-overhaul-of-irish-education-1999084.html

In a damning indictment of the education system, the American Chamber of Commerce Ireland criticises the reluctance to make the necessary change to the curriculum to adapt to the changing needs, with a new focus on creativity and innovative thinking.

It also highlights too much rote learning, facilitating high grades in the science, technology and engineering subjects that may not reflect the ability of the students to apply their knowledge effectively later in their career.

as i said before

while 10 year olds in other countries are learning the structure of the atom, periodic table, looking at plants under microscopes

10 year olds here are doing division, learning about a guy who apparently lived/died 2000 years ago and spending time being forced to learn a language that has little use on world stage

so any taughts on this "smart economy" mumbo jumbo and education system?

PCPhoto

feck sake ... the Irish were calling for an overhaul of the Irish education system for about 10years - maybe more.....

if its gonna happen (with current financial restraints and people in charge) it will be one subject at a time....starting with latin or underwater basketweaving.

Sleepy

IMHO, education is the closest thing we have to a silver bullet in ensuring a healthy economy in the future. We should be ploughing whatever funds we can into all levels of education, modernising curriculums and focusing on comprehension of fundamentals rather than rote learning (my LC Accounting teacher ensured I hardly had to attend my Accounting lectures throughout a Commerce degree just by teaching us the fundamentals well).

We need to raise the standards of both teaching and examination. An A1 in any Leaving Cert paper should be an exceptionally rare thing. First class honours in third level should be obtained by less than 1% of those graduating. Our Arts and Commerce degrees shouldn't be so short on hours than anyone with a bit of drive could complete a 3 year curriculum in a year.

We should look at making Oscail a genuine rival to the OU and examine why distance learning can't be provided at a fraction of the cost it currently is (looking at a course on Oscail recently they wanted nearly €2000 per module a year!).

And yes, compulsory Irish and Religion should be removed from our current system along with the "positive discrimination" for native Irish speakers in our college placement system.

All that said, can we really take advice on education from America? Aren't there still states teaching creationism there?! :P (oh, wait, most of our primary schools teach that too!)

ei.sdraob

Sleepy wrote: »

All that said, can we really take advice on education from America? Aren't there still states teaching creationism there?! :P (oh, wait, most of our primary schools teach that too!)

true one one hand, but on the other hand theres a reason(s) they are doing business here and not back home

lets look at germany, 10-11 year olds doing physics,chemistry and biology with English being practically compulsory

how many students here can talk another european language? and before im accused by some here, yes im fluent in major european language myself while i admit not knowing irish and still to this day not seeing the point of learning it, i still to this day not see the point of irish/religion classes while i have learned to appreciate maths long time ago

dan_d

Our education system may need a slight overhaul. The basics, however, aren't too bad.

What exactly do you think you can teach 10 and 11 year olds that's "creative and innovative"? Most can just about add and subtract.

Lads, people can talk all they like, but you've got to crawl before you can walk. I agree that we need to introduce compulsory learning of a european language. I agree that an A1 in the LC should be a rare event and that first class honours in college should be for a small percentage. We are dumbing down, to help the lowest common denominator feel better about themselves. And by that, I don't mean people who aren't necessarily academically smart. I mean people who couldn't give a damn and complain the system is hard on them.

If we want to teach our kids (primary school level) more science and languages, then they will have to be in longer days with less holidays - witness France and Germany. No matter how you cut it, to adequately teach the number of subjects that people seem to feel are required, there is not enough time in a 5/6 (or less) hr day that most primary school kids have.

Personally I have no problem with kids learning about religion. Actually, it would be better if they did religion looking at the different religions in the world, as opposed to one single religion. But we have catholic schools in this country. That's just how it is. If you've a problem with that, then the Educate Together is growing bigger every year. Again it's personal choice. But it irritates me when people out there ram down your throat that religion is wrong and indoctrination. You're entitled to your opinion, yeah - but I'm also entitled to mine (that's a general you btw, not directed at anyone here in particular). The problem is less what the schools are teaching and more the lack of variety available in the types of schools we have.

If I have kids I want them to go to a Gaelscoil. I'm not fluent, nor is it in my family or surrounding area. But I want my kids to appreciate that there's another side to the country they live in and be proud of it. And preferably not develop the sneering, disinterested attitude that's prevalent towards Irish in this country- even though we are so unbelievably proud of our "irishness" when abroad.

What I'm trying to say I suppose, is if it ain't broke, don't fix it. It's not quite broke....could do with a service alright, but it's not broken. And I don't think the Americans would be the best people to take advice from for education. Their own system is shocking compared to ours, let alone anyone else's.

jimmycrackcorm

The problem with learning Irish is addressed by moving the school system to the Gaelscoil methodology gradually over time. People can argue that it, as a language, has no relevance but then it can be argued that given our love for the premier league, there is no point us being an independent country either....

silverharp

The Irish state does a very good job at inverting the learning pyramid, it focuses the least resources per head at primary and the most at 3rd level. Its a system designed by civil servants for civil servants, excellence will not be tolerated

jimmycrackcorm

silverharp wrote: »

The Irish state does a very good job at inverting the learning pyramid, it focuses the least resources per head at primary and the most at 3rd level. Its a system designed by civil servants for civil servants, excellence will not be tolerated

Would the the next Google come as a result of teaching 5 year olds IT?

Does investing in education solely = paying teachers more?

murphaph

dan_d wrote: »

What exactly do you think you can teach 10 and 11 year olds that's "creative and innovative"? Most can just about add and subtract.

I think that's part of the problem. 10 year olds should be well able to add and subtract tbh. We need to strip out the likes of religion and Irish and leave them as after school activities and ensure our kids can do arithmetic, and do it well, by age 10.

ei.sdraob

dan_d wrote: »

What exactly do you think you can teach 10 and 11 year olds that's "creative and innovative"? Most can just about add and subtract.
.

and there lies the problem

kids of 10-11 and in other countries are learning other languages alongside with physics, chemistry and biology on science side and doing basic algebra in maths

are the irish kids "slow" to be doing the above at that age or are the teachers reluctant to do a good job or is the curriculum just "slow" itself?

so once again why are kids here of 10-11 can only add and subtract as per your quote? at that age kids are very bright and can absorb alot of information


why are kids here wasting time being forced to learn about a dead man and dead language (things that can be taught outside of school) when they can be expanding their mind thru science, maths and literature

Sleepy

If Irish children can't do arithmetic by 10 or 11, standards have seriously dropped.

At 12 I could write simple programs in QBASIC, when my younger brother was the same age he could create basic websites using HTML and notepad after a few quick pointers and was already learning his way around the world of sound engineering.

Children are absolute sponges for knowledge. Teaching them the fundamentals well at an early age should be relatively easy.

byhookorbycrook

I teach in a Gaelscoil. Our senior pupils also learn German during school time. All children are taught trad music, maybe the Americans think we shouldn't learn this either??Why should another country dictate what we learn in our schools???

ei.sdraob

Sleepy wrote: »

If Irish children can't do arithmetic by 10 or 11, standards have seriously dropped.

At 12 I could write simple programs in QBASIC, when my younger brother was the same age he could create basic websites using HTML and notepad after a few quick pointers and was already learning his way around the world of sound engineering.

Children are absolute sponges for knowledge. Teaching them the fundamentals well at an early age should be relatively easy.

agree with you

at 10-11 i was able to describe structure of atom, talk about basic chemistry, read books on geography and world, read and discuss literature

i didnt like maths but i had no problems with it

ironically i didnt see, touch or use a computer until i was 15 or so i think, and now computers,networks and writing software puts bread on table

you are right kids are sponges for information, only if i had the internet as a child not dusty old books and black and white tv i would have learned so much more. tho looking at my younger relations of that age now they seem to spend an extraordinary amount of time playing video games (nothing wrong with that in moderation of course) which is rather worrying

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Why should another country dictate what we learn in our schools???

beside that country investing billions and employing thousands of people here? anyways the thread has little to do with americans, the article was only posted by me to highlight what others think of our system, if you travel around a little you would see much more competitive and larger curriculums in the education systems of other countries,
like it or not we are not going back to living thatched houses dancing around fields, the kids now will grow up in a word which is highly connected and globalised and most of all competitive

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

I teach in a Gaelscoil. Our senior pupils also learn German during school time.

why seniors why not juniors? why not teach a modern useful language from an early age

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

All children are taught trad music, maybe the Americans think we shouldn't learn this either??

why is music being taught in school and not outside in spare time? nothing wrong with learning music, but i have to ask why does it seem to be part of a core curriculum from the sound of it??

/

byhookorbycrook

oh..and by the way, Irish children learn subtraction in 2nd class. All primary schools do science under the revised curriculum, though funding for equipment etc falls on parents, once again.

douglashyde

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

I teach in a Gaelscoil. Our senior pupils also learn German during school time. All children are taught trad music, maybe the Americans think we shouldn't learn this either??Why should another country dictate what we learn in our schools???

Because it is American firms that hire us Irish. Some of these firms are abroad and some right here.

Point of the matter is that on the subject of Irish, there is little to no point of learning it because it is little to no use from an EDUCATIONAL point of view.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

spank_inferno

I agree with much of what was said here.

The suggested innovations would all work fine IMO but for the elephant in the room of teachers unions.

I dont think parents would have much issue with their child receiving more education. And the kids love it themselves (except the moodier teens perhaps)

But would 1 shred of reform ever see the light of day without the INTO jumping on it demanding more money?

ei.sdraob

spank_inferno wrote: »

I agree with much of what was said here.

The suggested innovations would all work fine IMO but for the elephant in the room of teachers unions.

I dont think parents would have much issue with their child receiving more education. And the kids love it themselves (except the moodier teens perhaps)

But would 1 shred of reform ever see the light of day without the INTO jumping on it demanding more money?

good point

once we start talking about unions, we endup on a slippery discussion about the public sector and waste, and this all ends in alot of arguments here on boards

byhookorbycrook

Music IS part of the core curriculum, under the arts.

If other countries are " racing ahead" why do Irish children do well in OECD studies?

Sure why bother with education and just train all of our children to work in multi-national firms that will drop out of Ireland in favour of a lower paying country elsewhere??

byhookorbycrook

As to teaching creativity and innovation, many strands of the revised curriculum address this. German is not taught to juniors as the DES won't pay for it.

I don't see your point about going back to thatch cottages??

hinault

ei.sdraob wrote: »

so any taughts on this "smart economy" mumbo jumbo and education system?

Before citing a US report, I would check my syntax/grammar before postings.

Taughts?;)

ei.sdraob

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

If other countries are " racing ahead" why do Irish children do well in OECD studies?

what studies?

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Sure why bother with education and just train all of our children to work in multi-national firms that will drop out of Ireland in favour of a lower paying country elsewhere??

:rolleyes: we are not training/teaching them to be entrepreneurs either

that music/religion/irish class could be replaced by a class on business basics and common financial sense, who knows if we did that few decades above so many people wouldn't have walked into crazy debts


why bother teaching our kids at all, sure we can have everyone sitting at home on the dole and posting on boards more business for Boards Ltd

theres no need for scientists, engineers and entrepreneurs we can just be a nation of builders, lawyers and accountants (oh wait too late)

hinault wrote: »

Before citing a US report, I would check my syntax/grammar before postings.

Taughts?;)

they didnt teach me proper word capitalization is school

hinault

ei.sdraob wrote: »

and there lies the problem

kids of 10-11 and in other countries are learning other languages alongside with physics, chemistry and biology on science side and doing basic algebra in maths

are the irish kids "slow" to be doing the above at that age or are the teachers reluctant to do a good job or is the curriculum just "slow" itself?

so once again why are kids here of 10-11 can only add and subtract as per your quote? at that age kids are very bright and can absorb alot of information
why are kids here wasting time being forced to learn about a dead man and dead language (things that can be taught outside of school) when they can be expanding their mind thru science, maths and literature

You think it's bad here - you should see the American education system.


Quite ironic that the US Chamber of Commerce criticise this country's education system.
Their own system is appalling.

byhookorbycrook

One of the best things we could do is to start recognising exceptionally able children in the ed system and doing something about them. At present they are not entitled to any form of extra support ,even though under some ed acts they have been recognised as having special needs too. In a class of 30, you teach to the middle and try to wriggle a few mins now and then for those in the high ability area.

Cool Mo D

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I'm sorry, but this is rubbish. Irish students are internationally competitive. Among the developed countries, Irish students are well above average in science and reading and writing. The Irish education system needs work, especially in foreign language teaching, but saying that our system is broken is not supported by the facts.

According to this years OECD report, Irish students are significantly ahead of countries like Norway, Sweden, the USA, France and Italy in science education.

http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/41/25/43636332.pdf

Flamed Diving

Interesting.

Flamed Diving

Cool Mo D wrote: »

I'm sorry, but this is rubbish. Irish students are internationally competitive. Among the developed countries, Irish students are well above average in science and reading and writing. The Irish education system needs work, especially in foreign language teaching, but saying that our system is broken is not supported by the facts.

According to this years OECD report, Irish students are significantly ahead of countries like Norway, Sweden, the USA, France and Italy in science education.

http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/41/25/43636332.pdf

This refers to page 78, for those who are interested.

ei.sdraob

Cool Mo D wrote: »

http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/41/25/43636332.pdf

thanks for the links, we need more of that around here

Cool Mo D wrote: »

I'm sorry, but this is rubbish. Irish students are internationally competitive. Among the developed countries, Irish students are well above average in science and reading and writing. The Irish education system needs work, especially in foreign language teaching, but saying that our system is broken is not supported by the facts.

According to this years OECD report, Irish students are significantly ahead of countries like Norway, Sweden, the USA, France and Italy in science education.

you have an interesting way of looking at things :rolleyes:






Ireland is behind in science education for 15 year olds, when compared to:
Finland
New Zealand
Hong Kong
Japan
Taiwan
Australia
Canada
United Kingdom
Netherlands
Slovenia
Liechtenstein
Germany
Czech Republic
Estonia
Switzerland
Korea
Belgium
Austria


why??

note how US is slightly behind Ireland, that should be worrying considering how large a country they are, with a very large divide between poor and rich

/

Daithinski

ei.sdraob wrote: »

well we had a thread on how poor education is one of the causes of our problems (despite billions extra being spend with not much to show for it), with calls to scrap Irish, Religion etc and/or introduce new languages in a previous thread here

Sounds like its not simply a matter of "scrapping" subjects but rather changing the way subjects are taught in particular science/maths/engineering etc.

Its obvious that the writers of the report think the problem lies with being taught to memorise stuff rather that being taught how to work things out.

Your thread/post is probably going to end up an argument for and against dropping religion/irish in schools and thus will miss the point entirely... (pretty much business as usual for boards.ie)


The english education system has a two tier primary education system the 11+. They have one that focuses on rote learning (like here) and another that is more in line with what you are suggesting (I think its called the cambridge 11+ or something).
How would you say this is working out for the UK? Is there a noticeable benefit for the UK?

PS: The cambridge 11+ system has a much lower pass rate something like 60% compared to 95%.

Daithinski

ei.sdraob wrote: »

beside that country investing billions and employing thousands of people here? anyways the thread has little to do with americans, the article was only posted by me to highlight what others think of our system, if you travel around a little you would see much more competitive and larger curriculums in the education systems of other countries,
like it or not we are not going back to living thatched houses dancing around fields, the kids now will grow up in a word which is highly connected and globalised and most of all competitive
/

You are living in a dream world if you think that by teaching c+ and german in schools is going to make Ireland more competitive.

Maybe though these (future + theoretical) people would have a better chance of getting a job when they are forced to emigrate?

Irelands problem is like all the other old industrial countries is that we are too expensive for large scale employment sectors like manufacturing.

Even if one of the (future + theoretical) whizkids comes up with a great idea/invention, its probably not going to create any employment here, as doubtlessly the manufacturing will be done in a low wage region of the world.

Foreign direct investment in dwindling in Ireland and its only high skilled jobs which number in their tens or hundreds (rather than thousands) that is coming here.

Deal with this problem first then worry about what is being taught in schools.

Maybe we should close the schools down altogether as if there is a future of no employment here due to being globally uncompetitive why bother to educate people at all? It would be a waste of money teaching people "dead" skills. Instead of schools we could have a training course that teaches people just enough so they know how to fill out the forms to claim social welfare and what number bus to take to the dole office.

The_Honeybadger

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/brand-ireland-must-not-be-allowed-to-die-1996992.html

Interesting opinion piece here about the Irish language in schools. Can I ask why people are so against the language? Just because ye never bothered to learn it personally it should be allowed die off? It is part of our culture and I cant believe some peoples attitude towards it. Should we surrender our culture and identity to suit the American multinationals who would pull out of this country in a heartbeat if they got a better deal somewhere else. This piece makes a good argument for the continuation of Irish classes in school, alongside other languages, if it is so useless and unwanted why are Gaelscoils thriving right throughout the country. I agree that German, French and Spanish should be introduced at primary level, as well as further emphasis on Science but it would take decades to see the results of this work and would be of no immediate benefit in this particular recession.

In case anybody is interesed I am from the Gaeltacht, I am fully fluent and i also speak Spanish. While my viepoint can be called biased I still think there is plenty of goodwill and interest in the Irish language, and the narrow minded minority who think we should kill the language simply because they cant speak it themselves really need to grow up, the Irish language did not cause the problems we now have, but any scapegoat will do these people I suppose.