US firms call for overhaul of Irish education

ei.sdraob

Daithinski wrote: »

You are living in a dream world if you think that by teaching c+ and german in schools is going to make Ireland more competitive.

Maybe though these (future + theoretical) people would have a better chance of getting a job when they are forced to emigrate?

Irelands problem is like all the other old industrial countries is that we are too expensive for large scale employment sectors like manufacturing.

Even if one of the (future + theoretical) whizkids comes up with a great idea/invention, its probably not going to create any employment here, as doubtlessly the manufacturing will be done in a low wage region of the world.

Foreign direct investment in dwindling in Ireland and its only high skilled jobs which number in their tens or hundreds (rather than thousands) that is coming here.

Deal with this problem first then worry about what is being taught in schools.

Maybe we should close the schools down altogether as if there is a future of no employment here due to being globally uncompetitive why bother to educate people at all? It would be a waste of money teaching people "dead" skills. Instead of schools we could have a training course that teaches people just enough so they know how to fill out the forms to claim social welfare and what number bus to take to the dole office.

so thats it? we just give up and stop teaching kids? because our government ****ed up

the whole point of this thread is simple:

is it better/responsible to forcibly teach kids the likes of religion and irish instead of science and maths and other languages?

note how i highlighted something above, i would have no issues with these subjects being taught if they were optional


they might not get a job with science/maths but at least it would open their minds, hell even teaching business at early age might inspire them to start own business (instead of relying on other companies)

once again why waste time on irish and religion?

ei.sdraob

mickeyk wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/brand-ireland-must-not-be-allowed-to-die-1996992.html

Interesting opinion piece here about the Irish language in schools. Can I ask why people are so against the language? Just because ye never bothered to learn it personally it should be allowed die off? It is part of our culture and I cant believe some peoples attitude towards it. Should we surrender our culture and identity to suit the American multinationals who would pull out of this country in a heartbeat if they got a better deal somewhere else. This piece makes a good argument for the continuation of Irish classes in school, alongside other languages, if it is so useless and unwanted why are Gaelscoils thriving right throughout the country. I agree that German, French and Spanish should be introduced at primary level, as well as further emphasis on Science but it would take decades to see the results of this work and would be of no immediate benefit in this particular recession.

ah yes Marc Coleman of the

"There will be no house price drops in 2008" fame

and the author of books with the name like

"The Best is yet to come" and "Back from the bring"

they still allow that joker to write?

mickeyk wrote: »

In case anybody is interesed I am from the Gaeltacht, I am fully fluent and i also speak Spanish. While my viepoint can be called biased I still think there is plenty of goodwill and interest in the Irish language, and the narrow minded minority who think we should kill the language simply because they cant speak it themselves really need to grow up, the Irish language did not cause the problems we now have, but any scapegoat will do these people I suppose.

so am I, neighbour

i didnt say kill the language anywhere in this thread or other threads....
im asking a simple question: why is it compulsory? why are these 2 subjects (Irish,religion) not optional? allowing the kids and their parents to choose how the child is educated??
this must be the 5th time myself and others have asked that question in this thread
and we seem to get is "get the pitchforks! they want to kill Irish language!"

|

Flamed Diving

Daithinski wrote: »

You are living in a dream world if you think that by teaching c+ and german in schools is going to make Ireland more competitive.

Maybe though these (future + theoretical) people would have a better chance of getting a job when they are forced to emigrate?

Irelands problem is like all the other old industrial countries is that we are too expensive for large scale employment sectors like manufacturing.

Even if one of the (future + theoretical) whizkids comes up with a great idea/invention, its probably not going to create any employment here, as doubtlessly the manufacturing will be done in a low wage region of the world.

Foreign direct investment in dwindling in Ireland and its only high skilled jobs which number in their tens or hundreds (rather than thousands) that is coming here.

Deal with this problem first then worry about what is being taught in schools.

Maybe we should close the schools down altogether as if there is a future of no employment here due to being globally uncompetitive why bother to educate people at all? It would be a waste of money teaching people "dead" skills. Instead of schools we could have a training course that teaches people just enough so they know how to fill out the forms to claim social welfare and what number bus to take to the dole office.

Note how this post (above) starts all well enough, but then seems to disintegrate with each passing word, until we reach the final, rambling statement which mimics something that you would overhear in a chipper at 3am.

Daithinski

ei.sdraob wrote: »

the whole point of this thread is simple:

is it better/responsible to forcibly teach kids the likes of religion and irish instead of science and maths and other languages?


once again why waste time on irish and religion?

Ah I see, I thought the point of the thread was related to the article you posted. ie US firms call for overhaul of Irish Education.

Their point being that they consider the manner in which subjects are taught is wrong eg learning by rote=wrong way, Note: They made no reference to the subjects being taught, or time allocated to subjects. You shoehorned your own ideas in here which bear no relation to the point the US firms were making.)

Their whole point was about Problem Solving. Did you read the article yourself?

I now realise you were just quoting the title of the article and ignoring the content of it to promote your own agenda of abolishing Irish and religion. Thanks for clearing that one up.

spank_inferno

mickeyk wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/brand-ireland-must-not-be-allowed-to-die-1996992.html

Interesting opinion piece here about the Irish language in schools. Can I ask why people are so against the language? Just because ye never bothered to learn it personally it should be allowed die off? It is part of our culture and I cant believe some peoples attitude towards it. Should we surrender our culture and identity to suit the American multinationals who would pull out of this country in a heartbeat if they got a better deal somewhere else. This piece makes a good argument for the continuation of Irish classes in school, alongside other languages, if it is so useless and unwanted why are Gaelscoils thriving right throughout the country. I agree that German, French and Spanish should be introduced at primary level, as well as further emphasis on Science but it would take decades to see the results of this work and would be of no immediate benefit in this particular recession.

In case anybody is interesed I am from the Gaeltacht, I am fully fluent and i also speak Spanish. While my viepoint can be called biased I still think there is plenty of goodwill and interest in the Irish language, and the narrow minded minority who think we should kill the language simply because they cant speak it themselves really need to grow up, the Irish language did not cause the problems we now have, but any scapegoat will do these people I suppose.

Dude, no one here is trying to lynch the Irish language itself. I'm certainly not.

Would it not be a fair compromise to have the Gaelic language as a compulsory subject in Primary school and then move it to an optional language in secondary school as is currently the case for european languages.

As for the popularity of the Gael scoileanna, well in my home town of wicklow they are popular because the towns population grew, so the existing schools couldnt cope.
If an "Ecole Francais" opened down the road I'm sure it too would be full considering the demand for any school place.

And the Irish language will always remain a cornerstone of the Irish culture, ideas floated around here can never change that...& I dont think they ever mean to.

I wouldnt drop the language for youngsters anyway, I'd have them in for more days and more hours to learn all the more.

And also, its fine that you speak Gaelic. I dont and I dont want to. The fact that I dont want do doesnt lessen my Irishness on bit either or willing to surrender my culture to America..... and besides, no one here in wicklow gets gaeltacht money to speak Irish either, so as a taxpayer, your welcome!

Daithinski

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Note how this post (above) starts all well enough, but then seems to disintegrate with each passing word, until we reach the final, rambling statement which mimics something that you would overhear in a chipper at 3am.

I was just applying a little ei.sdraob logic who wishes to abolish everything that costs money and gives no return. (lighten up, I wan't actually recommending it myself)

On another note, Most of your statements on this forum seem to be trying to mimic the sarky doctor guy out of scrubs. Whats the deal with that?

The_Honeybadger

ei.sdraob wrote: »

so am I

i didnt say kill

im asking a simple question: why is it compulsory?

What you propose would damage the language no end, it is already weak enough. The system needs an overhaul with some real imagination to produce better results in the long term, but our national language is precious and when all the multinationals are gone what will we have left, you are seriously trying to tell me you are a fluent gaeltacht native and you want to make Irish in schools optional? Every other country on the planet values their national language and is proud of it, but not in Ireland, all we have is whingers saying "whats the point of Irish?"
Also what hope do you think we would have of successfully integrating foreign languages into our schools when we can't even teach our own, there are less than 100,000 properly fluent speakers in the country despite it being compulsory, I shudder to think of the standard of German our school leavers would have were that introduced.

ei.sdraob

Daithinski wrote: »

Ah I see, I thought the point of the thread was related to the article you posted. ie US firms call for overhaul of Irish Education.

Their point being that they consider the manner in which subjects are taught is wrong eg learning by rote=wrong way, Note: They made no reference to the subjects being taught, or time allocated to subjects. You shoehorned your own ideas in here which bear no relation to the point the US firms were making.)

Their whole point was about Problem Solving. Did you read the article yourself?

I now realise you were just quoting the title of the article and ignoring the content of it to promote your own agenda of abolishing Irish and religion. Thanks for clearing that one up.

so how will Irish or Religion being compulsory teach our kids problem solving?


as for Americans, their education system has huge problems up to tertiary (where they have world class universities) due to unions etc and having a huge and diverse country, but as can be seen from OECD graph on previous page, they are not far behind Ireland in science education among 15 year olds, why would American companies hire people here in future if they can do that at home?

Daithinski

ei.sdraob wrote: »

so how will Irish or Religion being compulsory teach our kids problem solving?

Problem solving is generally related to science maths subjects not languages or cultural subjects.

How will teaching any subject teach them problem solving if it taught in the wrong way. ie Rote learning.

You are totally missing the point.

professore

mickeyk wrote: »

I shudder to think of the standard of German our school leavers would have were that introduced.

I only did French in secondary school. By LC my level of spoken French was far better than my spoken Irish despite having "studied" Irish since the age of 4 - and i passed Honours Irish for the LC. I send my kids to a gaelscoil and their spoken Irish is already better than mine was at LC.

The point of the article was to encourage problem solving not abolish Irish. I agree with the multinationals assesment - our educational system puts far too much emphasis on rote learning and not enough on problem solving. Judging by some of the posts in this thread some more emphasis on spelling and grammar would not go amiss either.

ei.sdraob

mickeyk wrote: »

What you propose would damage the language no end, it is already weak enough.

languages come and go and evolved, forcibly holding onto the past is proving to be an expensive and wasteful exercise, kids could be learning other more important things in a modern world

mickeyk wrote: »

The system needs an overhaul with some real imagination to produce better results in the long term, but our national language is precious and when all the multinationals are gone what will we have left,

so why not teach the kids math/science and business, instead of religion and Irish and maybe they would start their own businesses in future? how will religion and Irish create entrepreneurs and end reliance on MNCs?

mickeyk wrote: »

you are seriously trying to tell me you are a fluent gaeltacht native and you want to make Irish in schools optional?

as i said earlier in thread i admit not knowing irish, and yes i technically live in gaeltacht, do you have a problem with that?

mickeyk wrote: »

Every other country on the planet values their national language and is proud of it, but not in Ireland, all we have is whingers saying "whats the point of Irish?" .

every single country? really :rolleyes:
countries such as Canada, US, Australia, India, China have "national" languages? news for you some languages span countries and some countries have multiple languages

mickeyk wrote: »

Also what hope do you think we would have of successfully integrating foreign languages into our schools when we can't even teach our own, there are less than 100,000 properly fluent speakers in the country despite it being compulsory, I shudder to think of the standard of German our school leavers would have were that introduced.

blame the teachers?

why can children on continent learn English or other languages in school while kids here cant learn Irish after learning it year on year in schools here? are the kids here "special" or are the teachers here "incapable"??

Daithinski

ei.sdraob wrote: »

why would American companies hire people here in future if they can do that at home?

To answer your question...

1. To save 17.5% import tariff on selling their goods within the EU.

2. We have a very low corporate tax rate.


(But, Poland offers these too, but with cheaper wages. Thats the real problem.)

Flamed Diving

Daithinski wrote: »

I was just applying a little ei.sdraob logic who wishes to abolish everything that costs money and gives no return. (lighten up, I wan't actually recommending it myself)

On another note, Most of your statements on this forum seem to be trying to mimic the sarky doctor guy out of scrubs. Whats the deal with that?

My post was light-hearted too. And maybe I like Scrubs, who knows? But from watching that show it seems that he truly has the junior doctors best interests at heart, and that he is only trying to get the best out of them. Sometimes, tough love is the only cure...

Amhran Nua

Daithinski wrote: »

Irelands problem is like all the other old industrial countries is that we are too expensive for large scale employment sectors like manufacturing.

But most of the top exporters (hence manufacturers) are first world countries with similar cost and labour bases to Ireland. Theres no reason why we can't compete with the likes of China, as the US, Germany or Japan can, especially after they are forced to trade their currency fairly. The last estimates I read were that Chinese goods are about a third of the price they should be due to currency shenanigans.

The_Honeybadger

spank_inferno wrote: »

Dude, no one here is trying to lynch the Irish language itself. I'm certainly not.

Would it not be a fair compromise to have the Gaelic language as a compulsory subject in Primary school and then move it to an optional language in secondary school as is currently the case for european languages.

As for the popularity of the Gael scoileanna, well in my home town of wicklow they are popular because the towns population grew, so the existing schools couldnt cope.
If an "Ecole Francais" opened down the road I'm sure it too would be full considering the demand for any school place.

And the Irish language will always remain a cornerstone of the Irish culture, ideas floated around here can never change that...& I dont think they ever mean to.

I wouldnt drop the language for youngsters anyway, I'd have them in for more days and more hours to learn all the more.

And also, its fine that you speak Gaelic. I dont and I dont want to. The fact that I dont want do doesnt lessen my Irishness on bit either or willing to surrender my culture to America..... and besides, no one here in wicklow gets gaeltacht money to speak Irish either, so as a taxpayer, your welcome!

Sensible solution, maybe optional after Junior Certificate. I also agree that primary schools should be in for longer days and shorter hols allowing for extra work to be done, you make fair points but some others are not so reasonable in their assesment of the Irish language and would happily let it die in the morning, those are the people I was referring to, and they would no doubt be the first saying what a shame it was afterwards.

Flamed Diving

Daithinski wrote: »

To answer your question...

1. To save 17.5% import tariff on selling their goods within the EU.

2. We have a very low corporate tax rate.


(But, Poland offers these too, but with cheaper wages. Thats the real problem.)

12.5% < 19%

I suppose I should provide a link:

http://www.kpmg.com/Global/en/IssuesAndInsights/ArticlesPublications/Documents/KPMG-Corporate-Indirect-Tax-Rate-Survey-2009.pdf

Differences in after-tax returns are far more sensitive to differences in wages, for obvious reasons.

The_Honeybadger

ei.sdraob wrote: »

so why not teach the kids math/science and business, instead of religion and Irish and maybe they would start their own businesses in future? how will religion and Irish create entrepreneurs and end reliance on MNCs?

Why does it have to be one or the other? Why not teach all of them, the school day is too short anyway, keep them for an extra hour a day (bet the unions would love that), I think we both have valid points and the system is outdated. However I stick to my point that the Irish language is not the cause of our problems and should be included in any revised system, what you propose would never be implemented anyway so no point debating it. Other countries have multiple languages for a variety of reasons and that is not comparing like with like.

Daithinski

Amhran Nua wrote: »

But most of the top exporters (hence manufacturers) are first world countries with similar cost and labour bases to Ireland.

It is wrong to assume that an exporting company from a "1st world" country is also a "1st world" manufacturer.

Lots of exporters Nike, Dell for example don't really do their own manufacturing anymore. Dell has closed down its manufacturing bases in high wage regions such as the US & Ireland. The trend is to outsource all this kind of work to low wage regions of the world.

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Theres no reason why we can't compete with the likes of China,

Their average wage is about 1 euro an hour. They don't worry about labour laws or environmental laws. This gives them an advantage.

Amhran Nua wrote: »

especially after they are forced to trade their currency fairly.

Who says its traded unfairly now? And to who is it unfair? I don't think the western world can take the high moral ground on this issue (if there is an issue at all)

Amhran Nua wrote: »

The last estimates I read were that Chinese goods are about a third of the price they should be due to currency shenanigans.

If you use PPP to compare the chinese yuan to the US dollar thats kind of makes sense, but what you are talking about I think relates to purchasing power / cost of living measurement within China. But whatever it is they have a large competitive advantage over us.

PS: No offense, but I hope you would not be the minister for finance if your party win the next GE!:)

ei.sdraob

mickeyk wrote: »

Why does it have to be one or the other? Why not teach all of them, the school day is too short anyway, keep them for an extra hour a day (bet the unions would love that), I think we both have valid points and the system is outdated. However I stick to my point that the Irish language is not the cause of our problems and should be included in any revised system, what you propose would never be implemented anyway so no point debating it. Other countries have multiple languages for a variety of reasons and that is not comparing like with like.

I agree with you we do both have valid points and they dont have to be exclusive of the other

both can be done (tho religion really should be moved to Sunday school/church and is an utter waste of time) since yes there is time in the short educational year

my problem is not the Irish language, my problem is compulsory teaching of it and religion in schools instead of more productive/enlightening subjects being taught in their place such as science/math/literature/history/business/foreign language

so if religion could be scraped, Irish made optional after primary school at least and more time is spend in school by students (and teachers) i would be quite happy with such a system

hinault

Daithinski wrote: »

To answer your question...

1. To save 17.5% import tariff on selling their goods within the EU.

2. We have a very low corporate tax rate.


(But, Poland offers these too, but with cheaper wages. Thats the real problem.)

Plus English is our first language.

I was speaking with a German official from Germany's IDA equivalent last week.
He stressed to me that Ireland had beaten Germany in attracting FDI from the USA - and the deciding factor was our ability to speak English in two instances.

Amhran Nua

Daithinski wrote: »

It is wrong to assume that an exporting company from a "1st world" country is also a "1st world" manufacturer.

Not really, do you think the tens of millions of people employed in manufacture in Germany for example are just repackaging what is built in China?

Daithinski wrote: »

Lots of exporters Nike, Dell for example don't really do their own manufacturing anymore. Dell has closed down its manufacturing bases in high wage regions such as the US & Ireland. The trend is to outsource all this kind of work to low wage regions of the world.

Dell runs its company its own way, and they are competing in a market with razor thin margins. If you look at other (larger) industries like pharma and medical equipment in Ireland, they are in fact expanding their operations here.

Daithinski wrote: »

Their average wage is about 1 euro an hour. They don't worry about labour laws or environmental laws. This gives them an advantage.

True, but much less of an advantage than you might think.

Daithinski wrote: »

Who says its traded unfairly now? And to who is it unfair? I don't think the western world can take the high moral ground on this issue (if there is an issue at all)

The US National Association of Manufacturers, the Treasury Department, the US, the World Trade Organisation, the European Union, the Asia Risk Congress, the list goes on. Everybody, really.

The WTO report comes at a time of rising tension between China and the United States and some of the findings will surely fuel debate that Beijing’s trade policies are preventing American goods from entering its vast market. U.S. critics accuse the Chinese economy of benefiting from an undervalued currency, illegal government subsidies, unfair barriers to foreign competition and widespread piracy.

The United States filed two new complaints against China at the WTO on Tuesday over copyright policy and restrictions on the sale of American movies, music and books — the culmination of years of agitation in Washington over one of the world’s biggest sources of illegally copied goods ranging from DVDs, CDs and designer clothes to sporting goods and medications.

And India is much the same.

Daithinski wrote: »

If you use PPP to compare the chinese yuan to the US dollar thats kind of makes sense, but what you are talking about I think relates to purchasing power / cost of living measurement within China. But whatever it is they have a large competitive advantage over us.

No, its currency manipulation, plain and simple.

Daithinski wrote: »

PS: No offense, but I hope you would not be the minister for finance if your party win the next GE!:)

Mm hm.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

doc_17

currencies not bing traded fairly, low wage locations, corporation tax rates in Poland.....

What's this thread about again?

ei.sdraob

doc_17 wrote: »

currencies not bing traded fairly, low wage locations, corporation tax rates in Poland.....

What's this thread about again?

kids being taught a biblical fairy tale instead of learning how to use their heads

doc_17

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I'm a maths teacher and I agree with everything you said. I read that report a few years back too. I have LC students who don't know what a pecentage is, how to work it our or when to use them. This is something they do every year in school from the age of 10 yet they kep forgetting. Is that a teachers fault??

Our kids are getting dumber because less and less is expected of them. Reform the education system all you want but it's the attitude of children that must change. Falling points for courses (due to the number of them)means that the kids don't need to make much of an effort to get into college. Take PE teaching. Around 480 points needed to get into PE teaching course in Ireland. That's way beyond the average student who wants to be a PE teacher so what they do is some sports science course first, then go to Liverpool and it takes a year or two more but they get qualified all the same.

jimd2

ei.sdraob wrote: »

well we had a thread on how poor education is one of the causes of our problems (despite billions extra being spend with not much to show for it), with calls to scrap Irish, Religion etc and/or introduce new languages in a previous thread here

now we have this > http://www.independent.ie/education/latest-news/us-firms-call-for-overhaul-of-irish-education-1999084.html



as i said before

while 10 year olds in other countries are learning the structure of the atom, periodic table, looking at plants under microscopes

10 year olds here are doing division, learning about a guy who apparently lived/died 2000 years ago and spending time being forced to learn a language that has little use on world stage

so any taughts on this "smart economy" mumbo jumbo and education system?

On the one hand I totally agree that areas such as science and foreign languages must be a priority. Not sure how you teach innovative thoughts. Myself I was quite happy with our educational system and managed to bag a patent and some corporate innovative awards from a U.S. multinational but I am not so sure how to teach that.

I would also agree that we are biasing too much towards the Irish language and this could well be stifling our abilities to learn foreign languages - then again this could be just a convenient excuse.

I would disagree with your sentiments towards the teaching of religion. Whether you like it or not this is a catholic country but it seems so easy for people to knock the teaching of religion in schools. For many years the nuns & Christian Brothers have run our national school education system but it seems to be now flavour of the month to dismiss that and imply that the teaching of religion is an impediment to the development of kids in this country.

ei.sdraob

jimd2 wrote: »

I would disagree with your sentiments towards the teaching of religion. Whether you like it or not this is a catholic country but it seems so easy for people to knock the teaching of religion in schools. For many years the nuns & Christian Brothers have run our national school education system but it seems to be now flavour of the month to dismiss that and imply that the teaching of religion is an impediment to the development of kids in this country.

so why is it compulsory? teach it sunday schools or church itself to people who are interested

and how is teaching religion not an impediment? thats time that could be spend learning any number of valuable subjects
how does religious education in any way help a child develop??

make it optional, if anyone wants to spend their time learning religion, its their choice

by your line of thinking, this is a catholic country so we should all have to go to mass every week

ninty9er

dan_d wrote: »

And I don't think the Americans would be the best people to take advice from for education. Their own system is shocking compared to ours, let alone anyone else's.

+1

Pot, kettle, black anyone??

Daithinski

Amhran Nua wrote: »

True, but much less of an advantage than you might think.

It doesn't matter what I think.

I would be interested in how you think Ireland can in reality compete with China. But maybe to stop this thread getting dragged any more off topic you could open a new thread.

Flamed Diving

Daithinski wrote: »

I would be interested in how you think Ireland can in reality compete with China.