US firms call for overhaul of Irish education

ei.sdraob

ninty9er wrote: »

+1

Pot, kettle, black anyone??

i understand your trying to be funny above

but the OECD report graph earlier in this thread places US next behind Ireland, so its either their system is good or ours is bad

ninty9er

ei.sdraob wrote: »

i understand your trying to be funny above

but the OECD report graph earlier in this thread places US next behind Ireland, so its either their system is good or ours is bad

I'm no expert on US curriculum, but realistically, TV documentary evidence (in general) would seem to suggest that there are many many more hicks and idiots in the US than elsewhere.

Information isn't the only thing important in education, how to learn and a broad cirriculum means Irelands primary school system prepares children for a society and not an economy. I think it's fair enough to leave that to second and third level.

Permabear

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jimd2

ei.sdraob wrote: »

so why is it compulsory? teach it sunday schools or church itself to people who are interested

and how is teaching religion not an impediment? thats time that could be spend learning any number of valuable subjects
how does religious education in any way help a child develop??

make it optional, if anyone wants to spend their time learning religion, its their choice

by your line of thinking, this is a catholic country so we should all have to go to mass every week

I am not saying that we all should go to Mass every week, I certainly dont.

I just think that it is now the in thing to slate everything that is anything to do with religion in this country. I was just reminding you that Ireland has historically been a very catholic country and that we should respect that. On top of that we should also recognise the fantastic work that the religious did in educating many or most of us. (Most of those religious got very little in return and many are now in hardship themselves in their latter years).

I know we have had various scandals and the consequent disgraceful actions or inactions of the bishops etc but we should be careful before we throw religion out of our schools. In the first place many of the schools are in the "voluntary sector" and are owned by religious orders, also many people do want some religion included in their childs education. I'll tell you what is disgraceful. It is a disgrace that a child that goes to a school in the "Voluntary Sector" gets a 100eur LESS subvention from the department of Ed than a child in the Vocational sector. This adds up and many schools in the voluntary Sector are really struggling to keep going. Surely this discrimination based on the school attended is unconstitutional.

irish_bob

doc_17 wrote: »

I'm a maths teacher and I agree with everything you said. I read that report a few years back too. I have LC students who don't know what a pecentage is, how to work it our or when to use them. This is something they do every year in school from the age of 10 yet they kep forgetting. Is that a teachers fault??

Our kids are getting dumber because less and less is expected of them. Reform the education system all you want but it's the attitude of children that must change. Falling points for courses (due to the number of them)means that the kids don't need to make much of an effort to get into college. Take PE teaching. Around 480 points needed to get into PE teaching course in Ireland. That's way beyond the average student who wants to be a PE teacher so what they do is some sports science course first, then go to Liverpool and it takes a year or two more but they get qualified all the same.

so our dumb children are to blame

Peppapig

Maybe taking this a little serious! If a student can get into college to do a course that these " American Companies" want, isn't that enough. I think we can take pride in our education system. When these people graduate with these degrees, who cares what primary education they got!

Peppapig

jimd2 wrote: »

I am not saying that we all should go to Mass every week, I certainly dont.

I just think that it is now the in thing to slate everything that is anything to do with religion in this country. I was just reminding you that Ireland has historically been a very catholic country and that we should respect that. On top of that we should also recognise the fantastic work that the religious did in educating many or most of us. (Most of those religious got very little in return and many are now in hardship themselves in their latter years).

I know we have had various scandals and the consequent disgraceful actions or inactions of the bishops etc but we should be careful before we throw religion out of our schools. In the first place many of the schools are in the "voluntary sector" and are owned by religious orders, also many people do want some religion included in their childs education. I'll tell you what is disgraceful. It is a disgrace that a child that goes to a school in the "Voluntary Sector" gets a 100eur LESS subvention from the department of Ed than a child in the Vocational sector. This adds up and many schools in the voluntary Sector are really struggling to keep going. Surely this discrimination based on the school attended is unconstitutional.

If they want to learn about religion, there parents should teach them. Other people might not want anything to do with! Secularisation is the way forward

SkepticOne

ei.sdraob wrote: »

so any taughts on this "smart economy" mumbo jumbo and education system?

More emphasis on spelling?:)

ninty9er

Peppapig wrote: »

If they want to learn about religion, there parents should teach them. Other people might not want anything to do with! Secularisation is the way forward

Learning about religion is an important part of understanding other cultures and breaking down barriers and fear of difference.

Ireland is still more than 85% Catholic whether you like that or not is irrelevant. The next largest minority is those of no religion, less than 5%.

It IS a part of our culture, the same way as Islam is a part of the culture of many others, however unlike Islam, it is non-invasive, and many schools operate an opt-out system, whereby a child can learn with another class group while his/her class is involved in Catholic preparations, I don't think they offer anopt-out of the pledge of allegiance to non-US nationals in the US, do they?

Peppapig

ninty9er wrote: »

Learning about religion is an important part of understanding other cultures and breaking down barriers and fear of difference.

Ireland is still more than 85% Catholic whether you like that or not is irrelevant. The next largest minority is those of no religion, less than 5%.

It IS a part of our culture, the same way as Islam is a part of the culture of many others, however unlike Islam, it is non-invasive, and many schools operate an opt-out system, whereby a child can learn with another class group while his/her class is involved in Catholic preparations, I don't think they offer anopt-out of the pledge of allegiance to non-US nationals in the US, do they?

Religion is so 1990's

Permabear

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parsi

irish_bob wrote: »

so our dumb children are to blame

Maybe they are. Maybe we have to realise that there are a large number of average Joes out there. Maybe we should be focusing on the gifted pupils.

It always amazed me the kids going to grind schools because they didn't get enough points in the leaving - if it takes 1 year of 10:1 tutoring to get them into college how the feck will they survive 4 years of being left to their own devices ?

ardmacha

Secondary teachers in Ireland work 735 hours per year, 40 percent less than the OECD average of 1,214 hours;

This idea that Irish teachers work vastly less than other countries has been repeated again and again by people with no respect for fact.

I posted the stats here and here , but this nonsense continues to be repeated here in 2010.

Donegalfella you have some good points about science scores and the like, I do not see why you cannot argue your case on the facts without making it up.

ninty9er

There's a home issue here too. My mother isn't the most highly qiualified person in the world, but she still knew to spend an hour in the evenings making sure I knew what I was supposed to for school the following day, I think the lack thereof in todays society is partially contributing to our brain numbing.

Spelling and maths tables were the main things I had issues with, but spending time on them means that I know the difference between their, there and they're and can multiply and divide relatively regular numbers easily without a calculator.

Too much mollycoddling has made Irish kids thick, not the education system.

galway2007

I think the best education we can give our kids is give them time to be children and give them a childhood.
If a child can’t count to 100 these days by the age of 4 there is something wrong
It is time to remind parents and people that kids are kids and not products and one thing for sure no US firm will tell me how to educate my kids and the last think I would want is my kids to be like American kids

Peppapig

galway2007 wrote: »

and the last think I would want is my kids to be like American kids

We all know how difficult those american kids can be :rolleyes:

Permabear

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ardmacha

According to new figures, the working time required at second level for teachers in Ireland is 735 hours per year,

This may be biased reporting by the Irish Times or simply lazy. Either way it is typical of the most of the comment in the media in recent times. The OECD data refers to "Working time required at school". Irish teachers are free to do class preparation grading etc at school or at home but because you don't have to stay in school to do it doesn't mean that it doesn't have to be done. Irish secondary teachers exceed the EU average time spent teaching by 10.5%.

These distinctions may seem subtle, but Ireland's problems can only be addressed by identifying what the problem specifically is, rather than generalities which nobody takes seriously because they are misleading.

#15

ei.sdraob wrote: »

blame the teachers?

why can children on continent learn English or other languages in school while kids here cant learn Irish after learning it year on year in schools here? are the kids here "special" or are the teachers here "incapable"??

You have a gross misunderstanding of language acquisition if you think it is so simple.
One of the factors that people overlook is that children on the continent want to learn English. English has the advantage of being the worlds 'coolest' language.
If you want access to American pop culture, you need English to take full advantage.

Do kids here practise Irish outside of school? Are they bombarded with music videos and movies in Irish? Is Irish a cool language in young peoples eyes?

They have no motivation to learn Irish, especially when they don't need it for anything.

Its laughable to blame teachers or children for the poor standard of Irish, when wider society doesn't give a toss about the language. Kids and teachers don't exist in a bubble.

If people really wanted to speak Irish, they would try to use it day-to-day.
The vast majority of Irish adults pay lip service to the Irish language. Kids aren't silly, they can see the respect that adults have for Irish (i.e., very little).

For the record, I have many friends from Europe. None of them learned English in the classroom.
Sure, they got a solid grounding in the language in school. But they learned as much from MTV as from their teachers.
And they only became fluent through travelling and living/holidaying in Anglophone countries.

Comparing the acquisition of English by continentals with the acquisition of Irish by Irish people, is like comparing apples with sausages.

#15

Daithinski wrote: »

Ah I see, I thought the point of the thread was related to the article you posted. ie US firms call for overhaul of Irish Education.

Their point being that they consider the manner in which subjects are taught is wrong eg learning by rote=wrong way, Note: They made no reference to the subjects being taught, or time allocated to subjects. You shoehorned your own ideas in here which bear no relation to the point the US firms were making.)

Their whole point was about Problem Solving. Did you read the article yourself?

I now realise you were just quoting the title of the article and ignoring the content of it to promote your own agenda of abolishing Irish and religion. Thanks for clearing that one up.

The 1999 curriculum has moved away from rote learning to problem solving.

Would anyone like to suggest a way of improving teaching methods in primary schools?

I hear a lot of criticism but not so many suggestions.

#15

Daithinski wrote: »

Problem solving is generally related to science maths subjects not languages or cultural subjects.

How will teaching any subject teach them problem solving if it taught in the wrong way. ie Rote learning.

Mathematics Curriculum

The Mathematics Curriculum is for all children in the primary school from junior infants to sixth class. Content is presented in two-year blocks but with each class level clearly delineated. The Mathematics Curriculum is presented in two distinct sections.

It includes a skills development section which describes the skills that children should acquire as they develop mathematically. These skills include:

* Applying and problem-solving

* Communicating and expressing
* Integrating and connecting
* Reasoning
* Implementing
* Understanding and recalling

http://www.curriculumonline.ie/en/Primary_School_Curriculum/Mathematics/

#15

mickeyk wrote: »

I also agree that primary schools should be in for longer days and shorter hols allowing for extra work to be done

Shorter holidays may be a reasonable suggestion.

Longer days certainly are not.

The quality of learning dips dramatically after lunch time. Kids, especially the younger ones (less than 10 years old) really struggle with their concentration after a few hours.

Keeping them in until half 3 or 4 would really be counter-productive.

ei.sdraob

#15 wrote: »

You have a gross misunderstanding of language acquisition if you think it is so simple.
One of the factors that people overlook is that children on the continent want to learn English. English has the advantage of being the worlds 'coolest' language.
If you want access to American pop culture, you need English to take full advantage.

Do kids here practise Irish outside of school? Are they bombarded with music videos and movies in Irish? Is Irish a cool language in young peoples eyes?

They have no motivation to learn Irish, especially when they don't need it for anything.

Its laughable to blame teachers or children for the poor standard of Irish, when wider society doesn't give a toss about the language. Kids and teachers don't exist in a bubble.

If people really wanted to speak Irish, they would try to use it day-to-day.
The vast majority of Irish adults pay lip service to the Irish language. Kids aren't silly, they can see the respect that adults have for Irish (i.e., very little).

For the record, I have many friends from Europe. None of them learned English in the classroom.
Sure, they got a solid grounding in the language in school. But they learned as much from MTV as from their teachers.
And they only became fluent through travelling and living/holidaying in Anglophone countries.

Comparing the acquisition of English by continentals with the acquisition of Irish by Irish people, is like comparing apples with sausages.

not at all (as i said i am fluent in a European language but not Irish)

if it was an optional subject then people who do do it wouldnt not get so resentful or cynical

so either the problem is with
* the students being thick,
* the teachers being lazy
* or the system itself being wrong

the poster i was replying to earlier, does not want to admit that there is something wrong with the system hence that leaves the other 2 options
"the students being thick or the teachers being lazy"

i dont think the above 2 are true, hence the problem lies with the system (which means Irish should be made optional and religion scrapped)

QED

Permabear

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#15

ei.sdraob wrote: »

not at all (as i said i am fluent in a European language but not Irish)

if it was an optional subject then people who do do it wouldnt not get so resentful or cynical

so either the problem is with
* the students being thick,
* the teachers being lazy
* or the system itself being wrong

the poster i was replying to earlier, does not want to admit that there is something wrong with the system hence that leaves the other 2 options
"the students being thick or the teachers being lazy"

i dont think the above 2 are true, hence the problem lies with the system (which means Irish should be made optional and religion scrapped)

QED

I agree completely with your conclusion.

Boo to me for not reading your post properly:)

#15

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

The only thing is that many of the reports do not compare like with like.

Often, the comparision is between Irish teachers contact time and other teachers contact time + planning time.

Irish teachers do not have planning time included as part of their work hours in most reports, AFAIK.

I think it would be a good thing if teachers in Ireland were required to stay an hour or two after school every day.
The work has to be done anyway, we might as well get the same recognition for it as teachers in other countries.

dkin

We need to have streamed schools, ie the top percentage of students are streamed in better schools at an early age where they are no longer surrounded and held back by their more average peers. Entrance to these schools should not however be based on a single access exams but rather pupils should be encouraged regularly to try and reach a required standard. Excellence in education should be something that students strive for unlike the current culture in many schools were gifted and motivated students are actively persecuted by jealous peers and their achievements degenerated.

A well connected meritocracy will drive a successful knowledge economy in the future not a system based on providing everybody with the same education system in this case you don't allow the elite to be elite and they are our only hope. Ireland understands this in a sporting context, sporting clubs all around the country don't give every little jonny the same time and respect they have graded teams A,B,C because they know where they need to concentrate their resources to be successful and these resources aren't spent on children with limited interest or ability. However as in all cases the children who are genuinely eager and strive to do better should be given the space to try to achieve their goals, although resources will be concentrated elsewhere.

A knowledge based economy is inherently two tiered as it will tend to be small, extremly expensive (both in sunk costs like education and capital equipment) and not labour intensive. Think twitter(74 employees), facebook(900), google (20000), Xilinx (3100), nvidia (5000), ARM (1700) each market leaders in global industries and operating in highly lucrative niches all companies without a manufacturing arm yet extremly knowledge intensive in comparison to say DELL (76000). Even an enormous pharmaceutical giant like Pfizer only employs 80000 people world wide. There are nearly 500000 people on the live register and it's increasing weakly.

Manufacturing industries however provide plenty of jobs for a small sunk cost and given our current uncompetitive state (during an intensely competitive time due to globalisation and the destruction of trade boundaries, Poland, Latvia etc.) they are irreplaceable.

As to our current school system. Acquiring knowledge is an active role requiring effort by the participant, the best teachers in the world cannot force a child to learn anything if they have no interest. Irish is a prime example of this, you can try and coerce people into learning a language they feel is useless but it is very unlikely to achieve results.
Compulsory Irish teaching is almost colonial in it's outlook and tries to force everyone into becoming some form of idealised Irish citizen. What gives such a small selection of society the right to force this propaganda on every Irish child. The British tried that throughout the world and it mostly fostered resentment. The definition of 'Irishness' changes over time and I certainly don't feel it is the same as the time when Irish was widely spoken so why try to return to that time?

Amhran Nua

#15 wrote: »

Would anyone like to suggest a way of improving teaching methods in primary schools?

We've a fairly new take on teaching in one of the policies here, using a centralised knowledge pool and letting advanced students learn more inside and outside the classroom for extra credits, while ensuring a basic standard of education, any thoughts on that would be great.

dkin wrote: »

We need to have streamed schools, ie the top percentage of students are streamed in better schools at an early age where they are no longer surrounded and held back by their more average peers.

How do you know who is likely to be in the top percentage at an early age? Its not always clear, in fact very rarely is it clear, and this runs into the nature versus nurture issue as well, where you have students who might themselves be quite bright but mightn't have the support at home. Given that we have very little understanding of what constitutes intelligence itself (passing exams isn't it), I'd be against a system like this.

ninty9er

dkin wrote: »

Compulsory Irish teaching is almost colonial in it's outlook and tries to force everyone into becoming some form of idealised Irish citizen. What gives such a small selection of society the right to force this propaganda on every Irish child. The British tried that throughout the world and it mostly fostered resentment. The definition of 'Irishness' changes over time and I certainly don't feel it is the same as the time when Irish was widely spoken so why try to return to that time?

I have no interest in English literature, yet I no doubt benefitted from having to study it. Get real, there will be times in every adult's life when they will have to do something they don't want to. If the system was modularised, maths English and Irish would be the first 3 subjects most second level students would drop. I never liked maths, I was never great at maths, and it took probably 40% of all my Leaving Cert study time and 2 grinds a week (on top of 4 hours extra class teaching from the teacher from her own time) to get a C3. I was happy with that, but considering I got an A1 in German for much less input hours, I feel that was a time investment mush more worthwhile. However all of these things encourage pupils to THINK. Cognitive activity is what these US firms are after, and I believe a broad system like ours encourages that more than say the A Level system where 1, 2 or 3 subjects can be taken.

What the fu<k has Pythagoras Theorem got to do with modern day maths. If you want to learn that to be an engineer or waht not, then I think appied maths is the place to do it.

Amhran Nua wrote: »

We've a fairly new take on teaching in one of the policies here, using a centralised knowledge pool and letting advanced students learn more inside and outside the classroom for extra credits, while ensuring a basic standard of education, any thoughts on that would be great.

I've skimmed that page and can't find the relevant point. But looking at your other educational aspirations, you could double the deficit on your education spending alone. Some of it is noteworthy, but it's also an aim of this government and all major parties to remove all prefabs and replace them with state of the art buildings, how are you different in that regard?

Amhran Nua

ninty9er wrote: »

I've skimmed that page and can't find the relevant point. But looking at your other educational aspirations, you could double the deficit on your education spending alone.

Not really, the systems built with private sector groups would be licensed for sale by said groups, tech companies do it all the time. The only place costs for the government would really come in is with initial R&D, and we already have programmes in place to sponsor that. Might even end up making a profit on the operation.

ninty9er wrote: »

Some of it is noteworthy, but it's also an aim of this government and all major parties to remove all prefabs and replace them with state of the art buildings, how are you different in that regard?

See above.