Marathon Training v2.0

Gringo78

Sosa wrote: »

good session gringo..well done.

You posted a while back about the route for the 5m...did you have a link ?

Was it a mile downhill,then a 3m loop and the same first mile but uphill ?

Check out this link;
http://corkrunning.blogspot.com/2009/08/preview-of-ballycotton-5-mile-road-race.html

I think I posted the race tactics in your log rather than my own.

Gringo78

Thursday: 4.2 miles easy at avg pace 7:57, avg HR 140

Sosa

Gringo78 wrote: »

Check out this link;
http://corkrunning.blogspot.com/2009/08/preview-of-ballycotton-5-mile-road-race.html

I think I posted the race tactics in your log rather than my own.

Reading that it sounds handy enough,why do i think the opposite ?

Gringo78

Sosa wrote: »

Reading that it sounds handy enough,why do i think the opposite ?

I think it is handy enough.....it favours a runner who can grind out a good last mile....the hill on the last mile is not the full ballycotton 10 hill...the first mile is fast downhill but even that in itself is an advantage....you tend to run too fast on the first half mile anyway, it being downhill it's not going to hurt you as much. The hill at the 3 mile mark though is tough...attack it too much and it'll hurt you. I think it's a definite PB course

Sosa

Gringo78 wrote: »

I think it is handy enough.....it favours a runner who can grind out a good last mile....the hill on the last mile is not the full ballycotton 10 hill...the first mile is fast downhill but even that in itself is an advantage....you tend to run too fast on the first half mile anyway, it being downhill it's not going to hurt you as much. The hill at the 3 mile mark though is tough...attack it too much and it'll hurt you. I think it's a definite PB course

I'll take your word for it,you were spot on around Cork for the big one

Gringo78

Gringo78 wrote: »

I think it's a definite PB course

Theres an atmosphere around the Ballycotton 5 aswell....most people toeing the line have already done the other three 5 milers in the series, its the end of the summer, they're in great shape, theres a big crowd, the standard is good, you kinda get dragged along to a fast time

Gringo78

Friday: 5.4 miles at avg pace 7:16, avg HR 151 w/2x1 mile at 5:45 pace. Took 6 min jog recovery between the 2 fast miles. Didn't want to run too easy today but not too hard also so this was a useful compromise I thought...a test of 5 mile race pace. Second mile was 5:43 uphill into the wind, similar to final mile in ballycotton 5. Pace felt sustainable.

tisnotover

Gringo78 wrote: »

Friday: 5.4 miles at avg pace 7:16, avg HR 151 w/2x1 mile at 5:45 pace. Took 6 min jog recovery between the 2 fast miles. Didn't want to run too easy today but not too hard also so this was a useful compromise I thought...a test of 5 mile race pace. Second mile was 5:43 uphill into the wind, similar to final mile in ballycotton 5. Pace felt sustainable.

Nice going, someone's targetting sub-29 anyway !

On the wind, it usually is behind you for that last mile, and running into it for the first, if its there, we'll def feel it

Gringo78

tisnotover wrote: »

Nice going, someone's targetting sub-29 anyway !

On the wind, it usually is behind you for that last mile, and running into it for the first, if its there, we'll def feel it

I'll through caution to the wind...and heres hoping that wind is indeed at our backs for the last mile....and aim for 28:30. Going to try to hang on to a few of the usual suspects capable of that sort of time and see how long I can hang on. It'll be my last 5 miler of 2010 so one shot at it. I've lost half a stone since my 17:46 5k so that should make a difference + better training since then also.

I hope you're not going all conservative on us and just targetting sub 29???? I thought you'd shaken that off.

tisnotover

Gringo78 wrote: »

I'll through caution to the wind...and heres hoping that wind is indeed at our backs for the last mile....and aim for 28:30. Going to try to hang on to a few of the usual suspects capable of that sort of time and see how long I can hang on. It'll be my last 5 miler of 2010 so one shot at it. I've lost half a stone since my 17:46 5k so that should make a difference + better training since then also.

I hope you're not going all conservative on us and just targetting sub 29???? I thought you'd shaken that off.

I'd say sub-29 will be a push Gringo, but I will be giving it a go. I've to make 5 places to get a top-50 shirt for doing the series.30mins would get me that, but i'm not settling for it, as u say its the last of the 5milers for the year !

Gringo78

Sunday: 4.3 miles easy pushing buggy. Avg pace 7:19. Avg HR 145 was relatively low for a buggy run so definitely feeling a lot more rested than last week

Gringo78

Well unfortunately looks like I probably won't make it to Ballycotton 5 on Thursday. Working up the country still so won't make it back in time. Disappointed only so far as I was looking forward to meeting up with and racing Sosa and tno but have the triathlon the week after so at least will still get a race hit soon. 28:30 had been the target, no more 5 milers on the horizon but the long term aim is to lower my tempo pace to that in 2011 so I won't lose sleep over not having a chance at a PB and work towards beating in training in about 6 months time

tisnotover

Gringo78 wrote: »

Well unfortunately looks like I probably won't make it to Ballycotton 5 on Thursday. Working up the country still so won't make it back in time. Disappointed only so far as I was looking forward to meeting up with and racing Sosa and tno but have the triathlon the week after so at least will still get a race hit soon. 28:30 had been the target, no more 5 milers on the horizon but the long term aim is to lower my tempo pace to that in 2011 so I won't lose sleep over not having a chance at a PB and work towards beating in training in about 6 months time

Sorry to hear you won't make it Gringo, was looking forward to the catch-up and race! I could def see you were peaking for Thurs, ya know that yourself with interval and tempo's you've been doing. Any chance you'll do the Waterford half in December ?

Progression is what its all about and your hot on that road still !

Gringo78

tisnotover wrote: »

Any chance you'll do the Waterford half in December ?

May do the waterford half....depends on work & family but will keep it in mind. Not sure I'll get long enough runs in over the next few months but probably could get a 12-14 mile run in early in the week every second week maybe.

Was thinking how best to structure my training over the next few months and I think I'll try to do both intervals & tempo each week for the next while until I have 'stabilised' them a bit. that means bringing my 5x1km intervals down to 90sec jog recovery @ 5:30 pace rather than the current 2min and bringing the tempo pace down to 6:00. Could take 6 weeks to do that and then I'll try to keep pushing the pace down slowly. Once I've the 5x1km down to 90sec recovery I'll start to vary the intervals a bit again and also start to alternate between intervals and faster <2min reps on successive weeks.

Been also thinking of perhaps alternating the tempos to fast and medium rather than all 6miles straight, so maybe 2 x 3 miles at 10sec per mile faster than the 6 mile tempo doing every second week. This might help me to progress the pace a little. I think I'll work on first getting to 6:00 pace though. Plan is to get to 5:45 paced tempos by ballycotton 10. I made no progress from August to January last year through lack of focus more than anything so will try to do better this winter.

Got my first running books - Daniels Running Formula & P&D's Advanced Marathoning so will start to work my way through those now so there may be a bit of experimentation between now and January.

Sosa

Gringo78 wrote: »

May do the waterford half....depends on work & family but will keep it in mind. Not sure I'll get long enough runs in over the next few months but probably could get a 12-14 mile run in early in the week every second week maybe.

Was thinking how best to structure my training over the next few months and I think I'll try to do both intervals & tempo each week for the next while until I have 'stabilised' them a bit. that means bringing my 5x1km intervals down to 90sec jog recovery @ 5:30 pace rather than the current 2min and bringing the tempo pace down to 6:00. Could take 6 weeks to do that and then I'll try to keep pushing the pace down slowly. Once I've the 5x1km down to 90sec recovery I'll start to vary the intervals a bit again and also start to alternate between intervals and faster <2min reps on successive weeks.

Been also thinking of perhaps alternating the tempos to fast and medium rather than all 6miles straight, so maybe 2 x 3 miles at 10sec per mile faster than the 6 mile tempo doing every second week. This might help me to progress the pace a little. I think I'll work on first getting to 6:00 pace though. Plan is to get to 5:45 paced tempos by ballycotton 10. I made no progress from August to January last year through lack of focus more than anything so will try to do better this winter.

Got my first running books - Daniels Running Formula & P&D's Advanced Marathoning so will start to work my way through those now so there may be a bit of experimentation between now and January.

Sounds like you have it all worked out,best of luck with the goals.
Pity you wont make it Thursday....im sure our paths will cross again

seanynova

Gringo78 wrote: »

Got my first running books - Daniels Running Formula & P&D's Advanced Marathoning so will start to work my way through those now so there may be a bit of experimentation between now and January.

got those 2 books also, Daniels is a great read!
good luck with the tempo and interval training, ballycotton 10 is obviosuly a key race for you, sub 59/58 next year!

tisnotover

Gringo78 wrote: »

May do the waterford half....depends on work & family but will keep it in mind. Not sure I'll get long enough runs in over the next few months but probably could get a 12-14 mile run in early in the week every second week maybe.

Was thinking how best to structure my training over the next few months and I think I'll try to do both intervals & tempo each week for the next while until I have 'stabilised' them a bit. that means bringing my 5x1km intervals down to 90sec jog recovery @ 5:30 pace rather than the current 2min and bringing the tempo pace down to 6:00. Could take 6 weeks to do that and then I'll try to keep pushing the pace down slowly. Once I've the 5x1km down to 90sec recovery I'll start to vary the intervals a bit again and also start to alternate between intervals and faster <2min reps on successive weeks.

Been also thinking of perhaps alternating the tempos to fast and medium rather than all 6miles straight, so maybe 2 x 3 miles at 10sec per mile faster than the 6 mile tempo doing every second week. This might help me to progress the pace a little. I think I'll work on first getting to 6:00 pace though. Plan is to get to 5:45 paced tempos by ballycotton 10. I made no progress from August to January last year through lack of focus more than anything so will try to do better this winter.

Got my first running books - Daniels Running Formula & P&D's Advanced Marathoning so will start to work my way through those now so there may be a bit of experimentation between now and January.

Good stuff lad, its a good idea to alternate the straight tempo with tempo intervals, must look to do the same, and your spot on about going for a pacing of 10s faster on the tempo intervals, McMillan would suggest the same.

Have both those books as well, both very good reads!

P.S. does that mean you ran sub-3 before buying the Advanced Marathoning Book

Sosa

tisnotover wrote: »

P.S. does that mean you ran sub-3 before buying the Advanced Marathoning Book

I read that book cover to cover in prep for Dublin last year and it got me nowhere...it is under the spare bed upstairs since gathering dust,i didnt even glance at it for Cork this year.

Gringo78

tisnotover wrote: »

P.S. does that mean you ran sub-3 before buying the Advanced Marathoning Book

Yeah...tergats posts were enough to read for that

Sosa wrote: »

I read that book cover to cover in prep for Dublin last year and it got me nowhere...it is under the spare bed upstairs since gathering dust,i didnt even glance at it for Cork this year.

I probably won't agree with everything in it and I won't use any of the generic plans, but I'd like to educate myself a little more over the winter...sometimes you can learn a lot from an opposing point of view just by considering why it is you don't agree with it. I'm still just on Daniels and like it a lot so far

Monday: only time for a quick session today and have learned not to push things on a Monday so did 20min on the bike and then 5min run on the treadmill, should be ready for a hard tempo this evening now.

Gringo78

Tuesday: Swimming - making very slow progress with the kick - stroke is slowly coming together but swimming the right way is still slower than swimming the wrong way so I'll be reverting to the wrong stroke next week for the triathlon.

Averaging only 1 swim and 1 bike a week for the last few months for the triathlon so it'll really just be a case of getting around and setting a benchmark for next year. I'd still hope to be able to finish in the top third anyways, all depends on how the swim goes really as I think I've a good idea of how much I can push it on the bike without overcooking things for the run.

shotgunmcos

Gringo78 wrote: »

Tuesday: Swimming - making very slow progress with the kick - stroke is slowly coming together but swimming the right way is still slower than swimming the wrong way so I'll be reverting to the wrong stroke next week for the triathlon.

Averaging only 1 swim and 1 bike a week for the last few months for the triathlon so it'll really just be a case of getting around and setting a benchmark for next year. I'd still hope to be able to finish in the top third anyways, all depends on how the swim goes really as I think I've a good idea of how much I can push it on the bike without overcooking things for the run.

Hey just get through the swim, high cadence on the bike and let your great running form do the talking. You will pass loads on the run and the adrenalin from that will guide you to your goal. We had a good 5k-10k runner join our club this summer and his run splits off the bike are unreal. What he lacks in the swim he more than makes up for with the run. Best of luck

Gringo78

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Hey just get through the swim, high cadence on the bike and let your great running form do the talking. You will pass loads on the run and the adrenalin from that will guide you to your goal. We had a good 5k-10k runner join our club this summer and his run splits off the bike are unreal. What he lacks in the swim he more than makes up for with the run. Best of luck

Thanks. It'll be a pure enjoyment race, no pressure, I'll look forward to hopefully making progress through the field once I exit the water.

Gringo78

Tuesday pm: planned tempo run of 6 miles at 6:15 pace. Route was very windy and undulating so had to go more by perceived effort rather than straight pace - pace varied from 5:45 at times right up to 7:00 but I probably had a relatively even HR throughout which was correct. Avg pace for 6 miles was 6:19 which I was happy with. Total 8.8 miles. Think I may have completed the 1000 mile challenge tonight....

Gringo78

Gringo78 wrote: »

Think I may have completed the 1000 mile challenge tonight....

Sh*te...0.2 miles short....could have easily tagged it on yesterday evening if I'd known!

Gringo78

Thursday: plan was 5x1km @ 5:30 pace but knocking 5sec off the usual 2min recovery. Also, first rep to be at 5:35 to avoid messing things up on first rep. Avg rep pace was 5:37 but were all fairly even so was happy even though off pace a little. Knew it was going to be tough less than 48 hours after a tough tempo but managed it.

Total: 6.2 miles.

1000 miles reached, 6 weeks earlier than last year. Averaged 29 miles per week for 2010 so far....not great really

Gringo78

Sunday: borrowed a bike for this weekends tri so took it out for a practice spin. Never used cleats before but got used to clipping in and out quickly. No aero bars so no acclimatisation needed in that area. Bike is carbon fibre and the difference between it and the sh*tty road bike I had done a few spins on is amazing....it's a joy to ride.

aero2k

Gringo78 wrote: »

1000 miles reached, 6 weeks earlier than last year. Averaged 29 miles per week for 2010 so far....not great really

Congrats on the 1000 mile! I think it's Noakes that recommends doing the least amount of training that brings the results you're seeking. You definitely managed that for Cork.

I like Daniel's book too. I think that spreadsheet you gave me the link for is pretty much based on his stuff. Interestingly, you mention changing your tempo pace based on duration - he has a formula for that too, adding something like 5-10 secs per mile as you move from 20 to 40 min duration.
I'm not sure if you were planning to try to knock a bit off the tempo pace every week or do it in bigger lumps every few weeks - I'd be inclined to favour Daniel's approach i.e. keeping the pace the same for a number of weeks until it feels "easy", then moving up a notch.

Also, a big thank-you for your helpful comments on my training program and 10 mile target. Although I was a long way off the sub 60 pace I was reasonably well prepared and it wasn't a bad run on the day. I reckon it'll happen soon enough.

Gringo78

aero2k wrote: »

Congrats on the 1000 mile! I think it's Noakes that recommends doing the least amount of training that brings the results you're seeking. You definitely managed that for Cork.

I think to be honest that I adjusted the results I was seeking in line with the amount of training i could do if that makes sense.....if circumstances allowed, I would love to do more 50-60mpw. I think I might be able to get to that over the winter and in 2011.

aero2k wrote: »

I like Daniel's book too. I think that spreadsheet you gave me the link for is pretty much based on his stuff. Interestingly, you mention changing your tempo pace based on duration - he has a formula for that too, adding something like 5-10 secs per mile as you move from 20 to 40 min duration.
I'm not sure if you were planning to try to knock a bit off the tempo pace every week or do it in bigger lumps every few weeks - I'd be inclined to favour Daniel's approach i.e. keeping the pace the same for a number of weeks until it feels "easy", then moving up a notch.

Coincidentally, I made out my program last week for achieving my progression in intervals & tempos over the next 6 months. The tempos will be alternated 6-8 miles straight one week, 2x3.5 the following week. I will progress the tempos very slowly....1 sec faster a fortnight. I will increase the distance 0.25 miles per fortnight up to max 8 miles for the straight tempo and from 2x2 up to 2x3.5 on the faster tempos. I'm going to maintain a 12sec offset in pace between the 2 types. On the intervals, I'll be be dropping the recoveries from 120sec to 90sec by 5sec per week without increasing the pace and then holding for 4 weeks without dropping pace or recovery time, just to let my body catch up. I'd hope I could progress faster, but I'll take it slow and see how far I get, it can be tough to achieve goals over the winter.

Gringo78

Monday: 6.1 miles w/2 x 2 miles at tempo. Plan had been 6:07 pace for the tempo, hit it for first 2 miles but after 2min recovery I couldn't really hit it again and did 6:12 for second 2. Mondays are never good for tempos as I'm knackered but tomorrow would have been cutting it too fine for Saturdays tri.

tisnotover

nice session yest + well done on bagging the 1000miles ! Not many lads go sub3 for marathon with the average mileage you had going into it, but u didn't need it as u had more than enuf pace bfore going into it.

all the best for the tri in youghal !