Marathon Training v2.0

Sosa

Gringo78 wrote: »

60:12 today for ballycotton 10. hill took too much out of me on mile 9. full report tomorrow.

Great running Gringo...you have 24s on me now.

misty floyd

Deadly time Gringo, looking forward to the race report.

theboyblunder

Gringo78 wrote: »

60:12 today for ballycotton 10. hill took too much out of me on mile 9. full report tomorrow.

fantastic time gringo, well done

Gringo78

Ballycotton 10 - Its the only race that counts in these parts so wanted to do well and wanted 2 things out of the day - Sub 60 and one of the famous Top 100 t-shirts. Based on my recent training and my 62min in Dungarvan 10 7 weeks ago, I felt I had the ability for sub 60, but just barely and only if a few things went right on the day. Still, to knock 2min off a good PB was going to be a big ask. If I was honest with myself, I was really only 10sec a mile faster than 7 weeks previously which is not enough but you can't aim for 60:20 in a 10 mile race? Certainly not in Ballycotton. you need to put the body on the line and go for the prize. So Sub 60 was the plan.

Met a lad I knew was also going to target sub 60 and we got a good start position, took a lot of pushing and shoving to get up there but knew i needed a good start to be in with a shot. His plan was to run 5:50 for the first 2 miles. That suited me so away we went, a few elbows and stumbles but got away clean enough. Still some people starting ahead of me who had no business being up there. 5:51 steady for the first 2 miles. Mile 3 was into the wind but me and the other lad were sharing the work load and using other people when we could. i was confident he'd stay the pace as he ran 15sec faster than me in Dungarvan and is a strong runner. Ran 6:05 for the 4th mile and my pal had dropped back unfortunately. I was on my own from too early on. Glanced at the HR and it was 173 so I knew I was not going overboard so kept on pace knocking out 6min miles.

Ran behind people when I could but couldn't really find a group that was pacing well so kept having to leave the people behind and work on my own up to the next group. Twas taking its toll. After 7 miles I saw the clock and thought it said 48min and was thinking maybe I've counted the miles wrong and theres only 2 to go...my heart lifted..checked the garmin...f**k, 3 miles left. Then I saw a group of 2 lads ahead (1 athenry runner - could it be mrak?? but then realised no, he's craughwell AC and he's probably 5min ahead - you don't be thinking straight 8 miles into a race) with a girl and thought, maybe these will hold 6min mile pace, unfortunately not and after running beyhind them for a bit into the wind, had to make the decision to overtake them and push on myself into the wind. Not sure this was the best decision, should have maybe stayed with them a little longer and I wouldn't have died so much on mile 9. I didn't really gain too much at all by pushing on, gained 2-3 sec that mile, gave double that back later on.

Got to mile 8 marker - 47:56 on the clock I think, 2 miles to hold it together and make it happen. Just couldn't though. Twas hot, windy and uphill and didn't have the energy. Didn't give up or anything, my HR was avg 175 for that mile so didn't slack off but was having trouble holding 6:15 pace and felt sub 60 was gone then. Hit mile 9 marker with 54:11 on the clock so needed 5:49 last mile. Tried that pace for a while but couldn't hold it, last mile is still uphill so twas a big ask. 400m to go and the garmin was showing I was on 6:00 pace. I knew I couldn't make up 10 sec then in 400m, glanced around, nobody challenging me so kept on pace. Saw my wife and kid with about 200m to go and waved, then heard someone coming up fast behind me, twas the athenry runner I had run behind back around 8 miles, stepped up a gear, wasn't going to be passed in a sprint and wasn't going to risk seeing him lift the last top 100 t-shirt from the box. Luckily there were still t-shirts in the box as I crossed the line and enough for a good few more behind me. 60:13 Gun time, 60:11 Chip time according to results. Shook hands with the athenry lad. looking at the results last night I now realise this was aburke. I'll say hello up in Connemara.

Garmin had me running 10.07 miles at avg pace 5:59, avg HR 171. So I ran to my limit on the day, delighted with the result and how I ran and that I didn't fall apart. Finished 72nd overall and times were down in general on the day, I think quite a few people missed their target time, I may have missed mine but yesterday was as good and as strong and as controlled as I've ever raced. Feeling in good shape now for Connemara. And I'll be back next year, for another t-shirt and Sub 60.

Splits were (roughly) with HR in brackets: 5:51 (152), 5:51 (169), 6:02 (172), 6:06 (172), 6:01 (173), 6:01 (173), 5:58 (173), 6:01 (174), 6:20 (175), 6:00 (177)

P.S Top 100 t-shirt is a nice technical T - very important. This will improve my trianing no end. It means on days when I am out doing a recovery run and need to run slow, I can wear this t-shirt and if another runner passes me, I don't need to speed up and show them I am faster than them like I have a propensity of doing up to now - no, they will already have seen the t-shirt and that'll be enough.

Sosa

Well done again Gringo.
Quick question.
If you did the first 2m in 12 mins flat do you think you would have broke 60 ?
I think you would have.
I did my first mile in Dungarvan in 6:12...ended up 60:36 as you know.
Difference was i was just trying to get under 62,and didnt feel that i ran my heart out at the end even though my last 6m were @ 6:00p (i was 24:33 at 4m )
I ask myself what would have happened if i ran the first 4 a bit quicker and pushed harder over the last 2/3.

Either way we both want sub 60 in our next 10 miler.
Good to have the family near the end.
I would love one of those t-shirts,must go up next year.

Gringo78

Sosa wrote: »

Well done again Gringo.
Quick question.
If you did the first 2m in 12 mins flat do you think you would have broke 60 ?
I think you would have.
I did my first mile in Dungarvan in 6:12...ended up 60:36 as you know.
Difference was i was just trying to get under 62,and didnt feel that i ran my heart out at the end even though my last 6m were @ 6:00p (i was 24:33 at 4m )
I ask myself what would have happened if i ran the first 4 a bit quicker and pushed harder over the last 2/3.

Either way we both want sub 60 in our next 10 miler.
Good to have the family near the end.
I would love one of those t-shirts,must go up next year.

The t-shirts are class! let me know when you are running your next 10 miler....John Treacy 10? We could post a good time working together for 9 miles and have a good race over the last mile

I think the 5:50 for the first 2 miles is deceptive...Ballycotton first 2 miles are downhill so the time is not as fast as it looks. If it was a flat first 2 miles I'd agree, 5:50 is way too fast, but I feel I was quite reserved, tucked in behind people, didn't weave, and felt like I was in good shape heading into Mile 3. I did too much work on my own on miles 5,6 & 8, thats where I lost the 12 secs. I did a lot of running on my own in Dungarvan but I thought with the bigger field in Ballycotton that the same thing wouldn't happen. It shouldn't have, there should have been >100 running Sub 60 but for some reason only 71 did. Unfortunately, looking at the results I was the first runner home NOT to break 60 So maybe I needed to run those first 2 miles even faster to be in a better paced group??? Nobody passed me I don't think from 1.5 miles on.

Sosa

Gringo78 wrote: »

The t-shirts are class! let me know when you are running your next 10 miler....John Treacy 10? We could post a good time working together for 9 miles and have a good race over the last mile

I think the 5:50 for the first 2 miles is deceptive...Ballycotton first 2 miles are downhill so the time is not as fast as it looks. If it was a flat first 2 miles I'd agree, 5:50 is way too fast, but I feel I was quite reserved, tucked in behind people, didn't weave, and felt like I was in good shape heading into Mile 3. I did too much work on my own on miles 5,6 & 8, thats where I lost the 12 secs. I did a lot of running on my own in Dungarvan but I thought with the bigger field in Ballycotton that the same thing wouldn't happen. It shouldn't have, there should have been >100 running Sub 60 but for some reason only 71 did. Unfortunately, looking at the results I was the first runner home NOT to break 60 So maybe I needed to run those first 2 miles even faster to be in a better paced group??? Nobody passed me I don't think from 1.5 miles on.

No idea when my next 10m will be.
Def wont be John Treacy,thats only 3 weeks from Cork.
I have a 4m on Easter Sunday,the Wexford Half on May 2nd.
I also have the 7.5m Waterford to Tramore on May 8th, cant see myself racing this though its the week after Wexford and the week after that i have a tough 20 on Tuesday and a tougher 18 that Sat/Sun,so a race before all that would not be ideal even though its almost on my doorstep

On the pacing,you seem to have it worked out...sub 60 next time it is.
I like leaving a bit to go for the next time anyway.
I did 30:09 for 5 before i did 29:33...then 37:22 before 36:16 for 10k,that leaves me with sub 36 next time round for 10k :eek:
Aswell as 37s to shave off the 10m and of course 14:17 from the big one.

tisnotover

Great report lad and strong running at end. One thing that I couldn't understand yesterday is how with > 2000 people in a race, ya can still end up running on your own (between groups), think u saw that as well?

At times it was like the Ballycotton 5, not the 10!;)

Gringo78

March 19th

4.1 miles easy, hilly at avg pace 7:49, avg HR 139

March 21st

Ballycotton 10 race, 60:11, 12.5 miles total including warmup

March 22nd

5.5 miles easy, hilly at avg pace 7:43, avg HR 142

Gringo78

Summary Training So Far:

Wk 1|Wk 2|Wk 3|Wk 4
26.6|37.5|46.1|36.1

Wk 5|Wk 6|Wk 7|Wk 8
38.1|18.1|41.3|51.7

Wk 9|Wk 10|Wk 11|Wk 12
46.3|45.5|40.8|


Avg mpw: 38.9

Tempo|Interval|PMP|LSR|Race|Recovery|Easy
7|9|6|5|2|10|17

Gringo78

March 23rd

Plan was 6 PMP miles keeping HR below 160. Avg pace fell out at 6:43, avg HR 156. Pace felt easy, didn't feel the need to push the HR to 160 as the pace was below sub 3 pace and don't think I'll run Connemara any faster than 6:45 pace. No aches or pains from ballycotton.

Total: 7.1 miles at avg pace 6:51, avg HR 153

Supposed to be tapering now so will keep the sessions easy between now and connemara with no hard tempo's or intervals. Hope to do an 18 milers this weekend.

asimonov

Gringo78 wrote: »

March 23rd

Plan was 6 PMP miles keeping HR below 160. Avg pace fell out at 6:43, avg HR 156. Pace felt easy, didn't feel the need to push the HR to 160 as the pace was below sub 3 pace and don't think I'll run Connemara any faster than 6:45 pace. No aches or pains from ballycotton.

Total: 7.1 miles at avg pace 6:51, avg HR 153

Supposed to be tapering now so will keep the sessions easy between now and connemara with no hard tempo's or intervals. Hope to do an 18 milers this weekend.

That's great going gringo with just a day's recovery; enjoy the taper and good luck in Connemara. When i ran it last year, there was a significant headwind for the first 6 miles, it would be good to get a group to run with for this bit if that is the prevailing wind.

Krusty_Clown

Just reading (and enjoying) the report now Gringo. That's great running. Would love to do the race (and would love to have that finishing time!). When I look at the McMillan equivalent of your 10 mile PB, it points to a great result in Cork (or sooner, if you felt you had the endurance/staying power).

Gringo78

asimonov wrote: »

When i ran it last year, there was a significant headwind for the first 6 miles, it would be good to get a group to run with for this bit if that is the prevailing wind.

Thanks, I'll be trying that, well aware of how much the wind takes out of you. Will be trying to use the half marathoners also as much as I can as I expect the marathon field to be very strung out.

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Just reading (and enjoying) the report now Gringo. That's great running. Would love to do the race (and would love to have that finishing time!). When I look at the McMillan equivalent of your 10 mile PB, it points to a great result in Cork (or sooner, if you felt you had the endurance/staying power).

Yeah, part of me thinks it would be great if I was heading to rotterdam now instead of Connemara, but I realise that if I had been training for Rotterdam, I would have been caught up in aiming for sub 3, would have tried to run my long runs too fast, would have tried to hit PMP sub 3 miles too early and I don't think I'd be in as good shape as I am in now.

I cheated a bit on my 10 mile time.....I persisted with 6 mile tempo runs at LT pace because I knew it would lead to a good ballycotton time but would compromise my marathon training. Hence, McMillan predicts a time I could not achieve right now but could in the future. In fact, McMillan says I could run a sub 29 5 miler tomorrow when I know I can't.....I have not run any miles faster than 5:55 in months so couldn't possibly run 5 straight at 5:45. But 2-3 weeks of quicker intervals and I could. McMillan gives an accurate potential, but you need to do the correct training for that distance to reach that potential.

I will give Connemara everything I have. I've just found out I'll be doing a lot of travel with work from mid april so marathon training will suffer after that, Connemara might well be my last shot at a marathon for a while, I may well have lost my endurance by cork, so gotta make the most of it. If theres a group settling out at in or around 6:45-6:55 pace at the start, I'll settle in with them.

Really looking forward to connemara now.

Krusty_Clown

Gringo78 wrote: »

Thanks, I'll be trying that, well aware of how much the wind takes out of you. Will be trying to use the half marathoners also as much as I can as I expect the marathon field to be very strung out.

I don't think the half-marathon field will be much use to you. You'll either pass their start point before they begin, in which case you'll be just hoping for some of the 1:30 half runners to catch up with you (make sure you don't latch on to Asimonov!), or you'll be unlucky enough to pass after their race has started, in which case you'll have way too many slower runners to contend with to be able to catch up with the 1:30 half runners. Anyway, should be an enriching experience. We'll have to do a Boards meet-up at the finish line.

Sosa

Gringo78 wrote: »

I will give Connemara everything I have. I've just found out I'll be doing a lot of travel with work from mid april so marathon training will suffer after that, Connemara might well be my last shot at a marathon for a while, I may well have lost my endurance by cork, so gotta make the most of it. If theres a group settling out at in or around 6:45-6:55 pace at the start, I'll settle in with them.

Really looking forward to connemara now.

Needs must Gringo,nobody knows what different circumstances are around the corner, so in this game,if your running well,you need to do the marathons or 10's or whatever because if you plan for a race 6 months down the line when you cold do a similar one in 2 months...you should go for it now.
After Dublin i straight away said that i would do Dublin this year,but then i ran 3 good pb's in 4 weeks in Feb and decided,why the wait ?
Im going well now...and then i signed up for Cork.

Best of Luck with Connemara...you might do Dublin if Cork is out.

Gringo78

March 24th

4.5 miles easy, hilly, at avg pace 7:17, avg HR 149. Feel fully recovered now from Ballycotton.

eliwallach

Great time posted in Ballycotton Gringo.
Hope the t-shirt is a nice fit.;)

Gringo78

eliwallach wrote: »

Great time posted in Ballycotton Gringo.
Hope the t-shirt is a nice fit.;)

Cheers. T-Shirt is perfect.

you'd a great time yourself, well done....we missed those magic barriers by the same amount of seconds. As Sosa has said, you gotta leave something out there to aim at next time out!

tisnotover

Best of luck with next few wks lad, tapering?

On your 10mile time, what do you think was the main training workout that brought the time down, the 6mile tempo runs?

Gringo78

tisnotover wrote: »

Best of luck with next few wks lad, tapering?

On your 10mile time, what do you think was the main training workout that brought the time down, the 6mile tempo runs?

Yes...tapering...the black art of tapering. Did too little last year before cork when tapering and felt stale, not fresh, on the day. Felt fresh and ready to go on sunday at ballycotton and thats the way i want to feel come connemara. How to go about it is another thing.

As regards 10 mile time, 6 mile tempo I think was the main one, it directly improved my LT pace which was my 10 mile race pace. However, probably, increase in weekly mileage, the addition of long runs since dungarvan, and also the intervals at 10km pace all contributed.

I think that I'm new enough to running that any kind of sensible training will lead to better results at the moment, its only when I start to plateau that I'll start to find out what works and what doesn't in training. Ballycotton was my 11th straight PB. I've run 24 races at 5km dist and up in the last 2 years and PB's in all but one. Prob similar to yourself.

tisnotover

Gringo78 wrote: »

Yes...tapering...the black art of tapering. Did too little last year before cork when tapering and felt stale, not fresh, on the day. Felt fresh and ready to go on sunday at ballycotton and thats the way i want to feel come connemara. How to go about it is another thing.

As regards 10 mile time, 6 mile tempo I think was the main one, it directly improved my LT pace which was my 10 mile race pace. However, probably, increase in weekly mileage, the addition of long runs since dungarvan, and also the intervals at 10km pace all contributed.

I think that I'm new enough to running that any kind of sensible training will lead to better results at the moment, its only when I start to plateau that I'll start to find out what works and what doesn't in training. Ballycotton was my 11th straight PB. I've run 24 races at 5km dist and up in the last 2 years and PB's in all but one. Prob similar to yourself.

Think your a good bit from reaching that plateau yet! I know what ya mean about the PB's, I've seen same since last summer, plus like u i'm a lot smarter about racing, only doing one every 3/4 wks now, putting the effort into consistent training is a more sensible option I think!

Best of luck with the taper, I hope ya get to do Cork as well, yourself and Sosa could do a great time I reckon if ye ran around together, both have in around same 10mile times like.

Gringo78

March 26th

7.3 miles easy, hilly at avg pace 7:16, avg HR 158.

Didn't feel great today, took a rest day yesterday as had a sore throat, only a little better today but felt I needed to run. Has me worried that I've had so many of these short niggly colds/flus/viruses over the last month or 2 that I'll have one the day of connemara, that'd be bad luck!

24 miles this week, hopefully get to do a slow 18 miler tomorrow or Sunday.

Gringo78

March 27th

Felt awful saturday but persisted with going out for a short run. Decided to try something like 2 x 2 miles @ PMP HR(160), PMP miles fell out at 6:47 avg pace, avg HR 158.

Total: 6.7 miles at avg pace 7:16, avg HR 152

Even though the HR didn't suggest I was as bad as I felt, it felt like the hardest run I've done in as long as I remember....not in the legs, just wanted to puke. didn't go out for a long run as planned over the weekend as on Sunday I was no better and knew there was no way I could run 6 miles let alone 18.

Feeling way better today though so hopefully whatever I've had for the last few days is gone.

Gringo78

Summary Training So Far:

Wk 1|Wk 2|Wk 3|Wk 4
26.6|37.5|46.1|36.1

Wk 5|Wk 6|Wk 7|Wk 8
38.1|18.1|41.3|51.7

Wk 9|Wk 10|Wk 11|Wk 12
46.3|45.5|40.8|31.1


Avg mpw: 38.3

Tempo|Interval|PMP|LSR|Race|Recovery|Easy
7|9|8|5|2|10|22


Not a great week last week, sickness meant missed out on 2 days and more importantly missed out on a LSR. Might try to get out this evening for it, otherwise I'll have to leave it go and make do with whats done. Need to somehow stay healthy for 13 days!

Gringo78

March 30th

A few junk miles today. needed to get a bit of speed into the legs after feeling like I've taken things real easy since ballycotton. 4.3 miles @ avg pace 7:00, avg HR 159 with 2 fast miles thrown in the middle. Real junk miles! Twas so windy today though it would have been difficult to do any type of a proper session....more taper madness. Might try 4-3-2-1 session tomorrow evening.

Gringo78

April 3rd

Plan was tempo run with 4 miles @ 6:10. felt tough as I hadn't run since last tuesday due to sickness and work, but got the tempo miles in anyways.

Total: 6.3 miles @ avg pace 6:47, avg HR 163

Gringo78

Connemarathon Plans Shelved

Have decided not to run Connemarathon next week. Main reason is I'm going to be working away from home for 5 or 6 weeks so will be away from the OH and little one on mon-thurs for the next few weeks. Means I'd be missing the family for a fortnight if I was to do Connemara and wouldn't be fair to drag them up to connemara for the weekend....Connemara is not a very spectator friendly marathon for a baby!

Anyways, while disappointed, I was always going to run Cork in June anyway, so will hopefully end up being better prepared for Cork and can maybe now target a good time there. didn't get in as many LSR's for connemara as i wanted and have been struggling with viruses since ballycotton so taper wasn't going well.

So taper over, right back into marathon training, will do LSR tuesday evening (will do the LSR's midweek while up the country) and hopefully get 6 or 7 weeks consistent training in. Will prob push the mileage now to 60 mpw for the next 7 weeks which would be a big step up, have only been averaging 38mpw to now but an extra 20mpw would make a huge difference.

Will be changing training strategy from here till Cork, more along the lines of Sosa's training. 20-22 mile LSR's for next 7 weeks, nice an slow. Other main session of the week then will be a 5-4-3-2-1 PMP run (c. 18 miles). Will throw in a few interval & tempo sessions also but the primary two will be LSR & PMP, won't miss those any week.

Sosa

Its a big jump from 40 to 60 Gringo,i would imagine you will ease into that and the LSR's...
The pmp work is great ( i think ) you reach your targets without taking to much out of you,the 2mins rec go by quickly but more than enough just for a little breather.
As for the LSR's...i love them now because i am finishing fast and like that part and you feel you can knock out another few if you wanted but the idea being that you stress the body a bit more every week.
Next week my 2 key sessions are Wed and Sat
Wed is 14m - 3m easy,8x1m@HMP ( Wexford in mind ),2 mins rec then 3 easy.
It will workout about 16m with all the 2 mins added as mileage
Sat is 19m with the last 4 @ pmp.

My program only has 3x20's on it...1x19 and 5x18 (4 done)
Nothing over 20,which my friend has told me are not necessary.
Its all about miles that matter,no junk...recover well,run hard on those 2 days and easy all the others,its a big difference to what i was doing and i wont know until after the race but i feel good about it anyway.

See you on the line in Cork then !

tisnotover

Sorry to hear about ya having to pull out of Connemara lad, thats a balls with having to move up country with work. Didn't someone say hear that ya can defer ure entry to next year, you should look into that?

Ure plan for the Cork marathon sounds good, keep it up lad and hope ya settle into work up the country.