Marathon Training v2.0

eliwallach · 26-04-2010 9:57am

Gringo78 wrote: »

No, probably won't run it flat out but its my home town and a charity race for a girl I knew so will run it even though only 2 weeks from the marathon.

And nett down hill (-200m)

.
Good choice Gringo.

Gringo78 · 26-04-2010 1:53pm

eliwallach wrote: »

And nett down hill (-200m) .
Good choice Gringo.

Listen you.....its only net 72m downhill so don't be degrading my current and future 10k PB's! Seriously though, those 72m are worth around 45sec, tis me best chance of dipping under 36 in 2010. Whether to then claim it as a PB though is the eternal question!

eliwallach · 26-04-2010 2:10pm

Gringo78 wrote: »

Seriously though, those 72m are worth around 45sec. Whether to then claim it as a PB though is the eternal question!

I feel your pain.
My PB from Youghal still stands (by just over 45 sec, as it happens!), but, because of the net downhill, I feel a bit of a fraud claiming it as a real PB

.

Gringo78 · 26-04-2010 2:19pm

eliwallach wrote: »

I feel your pain.
My PB from Youghal still stands (by just over 45 sec, as it happens!), but, because of the net downhill, I feel a bit of a fraud claiming it as a real PB .

Well, until I have fully debated this moral dilemma and made a decision, the 10km PB will stand. Could take a while.

Krusty_Clown · 26-04-2010 2:35pm

Sosa wrote: »

I think Krusty did a 10k time trial on his own two weeks out from Barca,he ran sub 6:00 pace.

Indeed I did, followed by a 17 mile long run the next day, which ironically brought me to around 26.2 miles in just under three hours (for the two days), which was then followed a couple of days later by 1m intervals. It was a bloody hard couple of days (so much for taper). Definitely not something you would want to be doing if you had any slight injuries, but it was a real kicker from a confidence perspective. It's part of the P&D program (race, rather than time-trial). Probably not as useful for you racing snakes, who are regularly hitting 28 for 5 miles and 36 for 10k, but handy for me, and I'll surely be doing it all over again in September.

Sosa · 26-04-2010 3:05pm

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Indeed I did, followed by a 17 mile long run the next day, which ironically brought me to around 26.2 miles in just under three hours (for the two days), which was then followed a couple of days later by 1m intervals. It was a bloody hard couple of days (so much for taper). Definitely not something you would want to be doing if you had any slight injuries, but it was a real kicker from a confidence perspective. It's part of the P&D program (race, rather than time-trial). Probably not as useful for you racing snakes, who are regularly hitting 28 for 5 miles and 36 for 10k, but handy for me, and I'll surely be doing it all over again in September.

I have a dilemma,i have the half this week,followed my a local race the following week 7.5m,dont really want to miss this but a week after the half might be pushing the boat out a bit.
what i could do is just do the 7.5m at a bit quicker than marathon pace,and then 2 weeks later do the 5m,i would have 16 days then to Cork after that,surely thats loads of time.
What would ye think ?

Krusty_Clown · 26-04-2010 3:25pm

The half marathon is well timed, and if you go by P&Ds recommendations, then doing a 5mile two weeks before your goal marathon would be fine. If you could treat that 7.5 mile as a tempo session and drop one of your other sessions in the week leading up to it, I'm sure you'd be fine. I guess what you don't want to lose out on is endurance. It's obvious you have a gansai-load of speed. Will these races come at the cost of some potential long runs?

Sorry Gringo. Wrong-log-itus!

Sosa · 26-04-2010 4:07pm

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Will these races come at the cost of some potential long runs?

Sorry Gringo. Wrong-log-itus!

No,thats the good part.
The last 7 weeks i have done 10 LSR's and 4 mediums.
This week is mini taper,so no LSR and next week is a recovery week,no LSR there either (thats when the 7.5m is on)
Then the 5m is 2 weeks before cork...only a 12 and 14 that week,i could do one early in the week and the other the day after the race.
I think i will go for it.

Gringo78 · 26-04-2010 4:59pm

Sosa wrote: »

No,thats the good part.

I had a 'false' taper recently when I was planning on running connemara...i really lost my way in the 3 weeks between ballycotton and connemara and felt I lost sharpeness. i'm going to be careful with the taper this time around and make sure i know what i am doing. I'd say do the 7.5mile as a MP run or a tempo as Krusty said. 5 mile race is fine to run flat out.

The danger with racing but not doing it flat out, is that you will probably end up still sprinting at the end which you wouldn't do in a training run. Also, you might not get a proper cooldown as you'll be finishing back the field a bit and will be stuck in a queue for a bit in the finishing chute (as opposed to your customory top 10/20 finishes these days Sosa). And you hit into a faster pace right from the the start of the race, maybe with not much of a warmup. So the risk of injury is then higher. You have to weigh up how much you want to run the race.

If you want to support the local race, why not offer your help as a steward?

Sosa · 26-04-2010 5:14pm

Gringo78 wrote: »

I'd say do the 7.5mile as a MP run or a tempo as Krusty said. 5 mile race is fine to run flat out.

Yeah,think i will (mp run,tempos these days are fast,you may aswell race the thing)...no problems with the warm up as i will do 2/3m,and will do a mile or 2 after.

If you want to support the local race, why not offer your help as a steward?

Could do that also,never thought of that

Thanks

Gringo78 · 26-04-2010 11:25pm

April 26th

Felt almost fully recovered from the chest infection today (still a bit of lingering asthma) so was eager to get back into things. Plan was to do a 4-3-2-1 PMP run with 2min easy jog between the reps. Ended up doing 4-3-2-3 as was feeling good and had the time. Pacewise, the aim was keep HR between 160-165. PMP miles Avg pace 6:48, avg HR 163.

Total: 13.3 miles, avg pace 6:57, avg HR 162

This felt 'easy' tonight. Hadn't realised how bad I had been last week and maybe shouldn't have run at all last week but maybe those runs have benefited me in some crazy way.

tisnotover · 27-04-2010 11:19am

great to hear your back, very good session !

Gringo78 · 27-04-2010 2:33pm

April 27th

900m in the pool at lunchtime. Did 2-4-6-10-12-2 = 36 lengths and the 10 and then 12 lengths in a row would have been personal milestones for me I'd say, never did that many lengths in a row before. Today was first time I was comfortable swimming, felt I could continue swimming lengths indefinetly and could recover while staying swimming....never felt this before. My pace seems to be steady at around 56sec/50m. Breathing every 3 strokes is getting a bit more automatic now but not yet enough that I can really forget about it, still needs a lot of concentration. if I could forget about the breathing I could concentrate on the the stroke a bit better but moving in the right direction. A few months left to get this right though.

Gringo78 · 28-04-2010 9:09am

April 27th

7.2 miles, easy, at avg pace 7:47, avg HR 147, did this one with a work colleague and was very easy, threw in 5x0.5m @ PMP pace with about 5min recovery between each, for his benefit rather than mine. HR was only climbing to max 155 during PMP half miles which was very happy with considering I'd been swimming a few hours beforehand. Tried to ease myself into the pace for quarter mile without looking at garmin (i.e try to hit the pace by feel only) and was able to do this which is a good sign.

Gringo78 · 28-04-2010 2:55pm

April 28th

34 lengths of pool today. Started off with 4 and then did 30 (750m) straight. 12 lengths yesterday had been the most I had ever done but I felt I had found a rhythm yesterday to enable me to just keep swimming so I decided to try the sprint distance. Took 15.5min but I took it handy and could have continued on. Started into the swimming less than 3 weeks ago and didn't believe I could ever string 30 lengths together and swimming was always the major impediment to doing triathlons, so happy now i know I can swim the distance, can concentrate on getting the time down now.

Gringo78 · 29-04-2010 9:58am

April 28th

After the swim at lunchtime, was feeling particularly olympic so decided to take the opportunity to get the LSR done for the week. 18.5 miles at avg pace 7:58, avg HR 153. Undulating course around Sligo-Strandhill-Knocknarea, beautiful part of the world. Legs were heavy from the start of the run and HR was higher than normal but I think this was simply down to the 12 miles of PMP on monday still in the legs plus the swimming also. Even though legs felt heavy, they felt strong, and had no problem holding the pace up hills. I hope thats a sign of endurance!

Took 3 gels and 500ml of energy drink - upping the amount of gels each run, want to take 5 gels during marathon, 1 every 25min, and need to know stomach can take it. No problems at all with the 3 last night, nor any problem throwing the energy drink down with it. Major mistake in Cork last year was only having had 2/3 of a 500ml bottle of lucosade sport prior to 20 miles and no gels - thats the same calories as 1 gel and it just wasn't enough. I drank a full bottle after 20miles last year and got the energy coming through about 25min after that. So this year, I'll take my first get after 1 hour and every 25min thereafter.

Looking at my long runs so far: I have 7 >15 miles: 20.5 / 20.1 / 19.6 / 18.5 / 17.6 / 17.2 / 16. So much better than last year where I had only 3 > 15 and only another 3>10.

So over next 3 weeks, hopefully can get in another 2 LSR's, maybe 1 x 5-4-3-2-1 PMP and another 2 x 4-3-3-2's. Will maybe reintroduce some mile and 2km intervals at LT now to get some pace back in the legs in the last few weeks.

tisnotover · 29-04-2010 10:11am

its sneaking up on us isn't it !

like your plan for next few weeks for PMP and LSR's. nice running there yesterday and good to try out the gels and drinking lark, would be thinking of 5 myself as well.

Gringo78 · 29-04-2010 10:46am

tisnotover wrote: »

good to try out the gels and drinking lark, would be thinking of 5 myself as well.

read a bit on the gels causing diarrhoea etc and not mixing well with sports drinks so since I've never used them before, want to make sure I can stomach that quantity.

Salt is the other thing I'm thinking about....if its a hot day, will need electrolytes so will try to get some tabs in a pharmacy that I can drop in the odd water bottle on the way around.

DustyBin · 29-04-2010 11:30am

Hi Gringo
Good luck with Cork, I'm doing it too as my first marathon
What gels are you using? I had the High 5 one's but found that they caused havoc with my stomach, then got some of the SIS Go-Gel's and find they go down much easier. They're isotonic so are a bit bulkier than the other ones, but apparently don't need water (I read that as need less water).
Good idea on the salt tablets, will look into that myself.
I'm planning on going with just water & gels (no energy drink) - do you think this is wise?
Very jealous of how quickly you've taken to the whole swimming lark - I find it difficult.
Hope the rest of the training goes well for you, maybe see you in Cork

Gringo78 · 29-04-2010 12:43pm

DustyBin wrote: »

What gels are you using? I had the High 5 one's but found that they caused havoc with my stomach, then got some of the SIS Go-Gel's and find they go down much easier. They're isotonic so are a bit bulkier than the other ones, but apparently don't need water

SIS Go-gels also....although bulky, they really are easy to take and I've found I don't need to wash them down with anything. I actually find them refreshing (tropical flavour)

DustyBin wrote: »

I'm planning on going with just water & gels (no energy drink) - do you think this is wise?

They say you shouldn't mix the gels and the energy drinks so yeah, no probs with that. 500ml of lucosade sport has the calories of less then 2 gels so not all that much really.

DustyBin wrote: »

Very jealous of how quickly you've taken to the whole swimming lark - I find it difficult.

Well I could always swim, I just never tried to swim any distance. Once I had the breathing sorted to 3 strokes, it seemed to make everything so much easier.

Best of luck in Cork....Twas my first marathon last year, brokedown at 20 but finsihed and absolutely loved it even though it was a brutal experience.

Gringo78 · 29-04-2010 2:14pm

April 29th

Swimming: Said I'd shoot for the 1km straight today and got it in 20min, passed through 750m 30sec faster than yesterday and then held the pace for last 250m. Felt good swimming after the LSR.

Gringo78 · 29-04-2010 9:18pm

April 29th

5 miles, recovery, at avg pace 8:00, avg HR 145. Felt tired this evening, last few days were tough. Nearly stayed on the couch and didn't go out!

eliwallach · 07-05-2010 10:58am

Gringo78 wrote: »

Salt is the other thing I'm thinking about....if its a hot day, will need electrolytes so will try to get some tabs in a pharmacy that I can drop in the odd water bottle on the way around.

Would a sachet of Dioralyte be of any use ? (could dissolve it in a bottle of water) during the latter stages of the marathon.
Am thinking along those lines myself.

Gringo78 · 10-05-2010 2:23pm

eliwallach wrote: »

Would a sachet of Dioralyte be of any use ? (could dissolve it in a bottle of water) during the latter stages of the marathon.
Am thinking along those lines myself.

yeah, I'd say that'd work...haven't checked it out any further yet.

Gringo78 · 10-05-2010 2:36pm

Last week was a very poor week! A lot of travel to and fro with work so got what training in that I could. Should be a better week this week.

May 4th
4 miles easy
May 5th
5 miles at PMP HR on Treadmill
May 7th
5 miles at Tempo HR on Treadmill

Summary Training So Far:

Wk 1|Wk 2|Wk 3|Wk 4
26.6|37.5|46.1|36.1

Wk 5|Wk 6|Wk 7|Wk 8
38.1|18.1|41.3|51.7

Wk 9|Wk 10|Wk 11|Wk 12
46.3|45.5|40.8|31.1

Wk 13|Wk 14|Wk 15|Wk 16
10.6|40.4|43.7|19.3

Wk 17|Wk 18|Wk 19|Wk 20
44|14||

Average: 35mpw

Sosa · 10-05-2010 2:38pm

Whats your plan for the next 4 weeks ?

Gringo78 · 10-05-2010 4:26pm

Sosa wrote: »

Whats your plan for the next 4 weeks ?

Using Misty's taper with tergats corrections:

This week (10-16th May): 2 key workouts - 6x1 @LT pace & 20 mile LSR
Next week: (17-23rd May) 4-3-2-1 PMP & 15 mile w/[EMAIL="w/5@pmp"]5@pmp[/EMAIL], some easy runs with strides
(24-30th May): 6x1 @LT pace & 13 mile LSR, some easy runs with strides
(31-6th Jun): 3x1 mile @ 10k pace (3min recovery between), some strides
7th June: Marathon

All comments greatly appreciated.

theboyblunder · 10-05-2010 4:38pm

Gringo78 wrote: »

Using Misty's taper with tergats corrections:

This week (10-16th May): 2 key workouts - 6x1 @LT pace & 20 mile LSR
Next week: (17-23rd May) 4-3-2-1 PMP & 15 mile w/5@pmp, some easy runs with strides
(24-30th May): 6x1 @LT pace & 13 mile LSR, some easy runs with strides
(31-6th Jun): 3x1 mile @ 10k pace (3min recovery between), some strides
7th June: Marathon

All comments greatly appreciated.

looks good gringo. rooting for the three of you (sosa, tisnotover and yourself) in this marathon.

I would have two questions (not trying to knock confidence here) -

first is the 4-3-2-1: I have read tergats post on this and he seems to be a man who knows his stuff, but for me it seems more marathon specific to drop the 2 mins recovery. If worried about fatigue then do less miles at PMP if one has to, but you dont get this 2 min break in the marathon. My HR would be down to 90-100ish after a 2 min break. I dunno, just a thought

second is the intervals in the last week. These cant help you (takes two weeks supposedly) so they are an unneccesary injury risk IMO.

Good luck!

Sosa · 10-05-2010 5:17pm

theboyblunder wrote: »

looks good gringo. rooting for the three of you (sosa, tisnotover and yourself) in this marathon.

I would have two questions (not trying to knock confidence here) -

first is the 4-3-2-1: I have read tergats post on this and he seems to be a man who knows his stuff, but for me it seems more marathon specific to drop the 2 mins recovery. If worried about fatigue then do less miles at PMP if one has to, but you dont get this 2 min break in the marathon. My HR would be down to 90-100ish after a 2 min break. I dunno, just a thought

second is the intervals in the last week. These cant help you (takes two weeks supposedly) so they are an unneccesary injury risk IMO.

Good luck!

The 2 min break is so that it takes less out of you to complete the session and the intervals in the last week are only 3m and its just to get the legs turning over in prep for the big day.

I have only brought in the staggered pmp runs this year and i am doing them at faster than pmp because i am getting a break inbetween.

Gringo78 · 10-05-2010 5:23pm

theboyblunder wrote: »

first is the 4-3-2-1: I have read tergats post on this and he seems to be a man who knows his stuff, but for me it seems more marathon specific to drop the 2 mins recovery. If worried about fatigue then do less miles at PMP if one has to, but you dont get this 2 min break in the marathon. My HR would be down to 90-100ish after a 2 min break. I dunno, just a thought

I think the idea is to get more miles at PMP, to get the feel of PMP, and to get your body working efficiently at PMP without the fatigue. The 2 min break is a jog, I would still be running 8min mile pace, I would never stop completely. By taking the recovery between the reps, you maintain your form in the next rep and so reduce the chance of injury and can get more miles in without needing too many days recovery.

You have to trust that on the day of the race you are bringing all the facets of training together - you're banging along at PMP, it feels natural cos you've loads of miles done at that pace, you're using fuel efficiently because your body has adapted to run efficiently at that pace and you're fat burning metabolism is much better after all the slow LSR's where you burned almost exclusively fat and really trained that metabolism.

theboyblunder wrote: »

second is the intervals in the last week. These cant help you (takes two weeks supposedly) so they are an unneccesary injury risk IMO.

3 x 1 mile intervals wouldn't take so long to recover from but you are right...it does increase the risk of injury and I may change that to 3x1km. I may actually be running a 10km race on the 23rd of May...I'm hoping 15 days recovery is enough for that.....

Marathon Training v2.0

Comments