Marathon Training v2.0

misty floyd

I thought that 3x1m session during the last week was perfect. Actually, I think I did 2x1m. You finish the session feeling the LT was grand so PMP will be dead easy. Hitting a couple of miles fast gave me some reasurance that I was fit and ready. Perfect for taper madness.

theboyblunder

Gringo78 wrote: »

I think the idea is to get more miles at PMP, to get the feel of PMP, and to get your body working efficiently at PMP without the fatigue. The 2 min break is a jog, I would still be running 8min mile pace, I would never stop completely. By taking the recovery between the reps, you maintain your form in the next rep and so reduce the chance of injury and can get more miles in without needing too many days recovery.

You have to trust that on the day of the race you are bringing all the facets of training together - you're banging along at PMP, it feels natural cos you've loads of miles done at that pace, you're using fuel efficiently because your body has adapted to run efficiently at that pace and you're fat burning metabolism is much better after all the slow LSR's where you burned almost exclusively fat and really trained that metabolism.



3 x 1 mile intervals wouldn't take so long to recover from but you are right...it does increase the risk of injury and I may change that to 3x1km. I may actually be running a 10km race on the 23rd of May...I'm hoping 15 days recovery is enough for that.....

yeah fair enough thought it was to aid recovery. You have a superb 10 mile time, I doubt 6'52 will feel tough for you on the day anyway! Hope the taper goes well, will be following with interest as I havent decided what I will do for mine in 13 weeks time.

misty floyd

theboyblunder wrote: »

I doubt 6'52 will feel tough for you on the day anyway!

It'll feel easy. No doubt about that.

Gringo78

theboyblunder wrote: »

You have a superb 10 mile time, I doubt 6'52 will feel tough for you on the day anyway!

Unfortunately 6:52 ain't good enough. Marathon is more like 26.4 miles on the Garmin so average pace has to be 6:49 at the worst!

tisnotover

Gringo78 wrote: »

Unfortunately 6:52 ain't good enough. Marathon is more like 26.4 miles on the Garmin so average pace has to be 6:49 at the worst!

The PMP sessions you've planned should help this, they're very important I think, my reason for saying this is that they're a hard session, marathon specific, so thats why we should focus on them!

tisnotover

Gringo78 wrote: »

I may actually be running a 10km race on the 23rd of May...I'm hoping 15 days recovery is enough for that.....

Tempted by that race too lad, but I'm just wondering is running 10km at 6 min/mile or under pace is a good thing ?

Sosa

tisnotover wrote: »

Tempted by that race too lad, but I'm just wondering is running 10km at 6 min/mile or under pace is a good thing ?

The way i look at that tno is you will just be after finishing week 1 of 3 of your taper.
You have no long runs after it.

I have a 5m the night before in Portlaw and i am going to give it a lash.
I could not taper for 3 weeks,drove me mad last year and i lost the edge.
I want to keep it going this year,and i dont see a 5m race as to excessive....Krusty did a 10k time trial on his own 2 weeks before Barca at sub 6:00pace and it didnt do him any harm,did it ?
Today was my first LSR in 2 weeks,with the mini taper for the half and recovery week last week i was feeling that i was losing it a bit.
I run better when i am training well,not when i am running easy runs all the time.

tisnotover

Sosa wrote: »

The way i look at that tno is you will just be after finishing week 1 of 3 of your taper.
You have no long runs after it.

I have a 5m the night before in Portlaw and i am going to give it a lash.
I could not taper for 3 weeks,drove me mad last year and i lost the edge.
I want to keep it going this year,and i dont see a 5m race as to excessive....Krusty did a 10k time trial on his own 2 weeks before Barca at sub 6:00pace and it didnt do him any harm,did it ?
Today was my first LSR in 2 weeks,with the mini taper for the half and recovery week last week i was feeling that i was losing it a bit.
I run better when i am training well,not when i am running easy runs all the time.

I think i'll go insane if I don't do a 5mile/10k 2 or 3 wks out...as u say its all well and good to feel ure doing ok in training, but you need to leave off some steam sometimes too !

Gringo78

May 11th

8 miles this morning which included 2x3miles at PMP HR. Average pace for PMP miles was about 10sec a mile slower than sub 3 pace but not too worried, I was after only about 4 hours sleep and had onset of a sore throat. Hitting the berocca again so hopefully that'll take care of things.

Hopefully go for a swim at lunchtime and aim for the 1500m for the first time today.

Gringo78

May 11th

Swim at lunchtime. Lanes were in use (incorrectly:mad:) so couldn't go for the continuous swim so did reps of 50 & 100m instead concentrating on trying to improve my technique. Not really sure how successfull I was. Only around 34 lengths. Good workout though.

Gringo78

May 12th

3.8 miles easy @ avg pace 8:00, avg HR 143. Got out this morning for an easy run before work, will do intervals on treadmill at lunchtime instead of swimming.

Seem to have a bit of a cold again. I've counted 17 days since January where my training was restricted or I couldn't train due to sickness! Not good...will have to look after myself next winter a bit better, start taking the multivitamins / vitamin C doses.

tisnotover

Gringo78 wrote: »

Seem to have a bit of a cold again. I've counted 17 days since January where my training was restricted or I couldn't train due to sickness! Not good...will have to look after myself next winter a bit better, start taking the multivitamins / vitamin C doses.

Hopefully its a good thing that you have the cold now and not around June 7th !

Have you thought about how your going to approach pacing the marathon ?

Gringo78

tisnotover wrote: »

Have you thought about how your going to approach pacing the marathon ?

Yeah, been thinking about it the last few days. With my erratic training over the last 5 or 6 weeks I think I am only borderline sub 3 now so I'm not going to be looking to run any faster than 1:30 for the first half.

If training had gone better over the last 6 weeks my plan would have been to run to my daniels marathon HR (165) and if that was faster than sub 3 pace, all the better. However, now, while I'll be watching the HR I won't be pushing the pace faster than 6:45 (unless its appropriate i.e downhill) and hopefully I'll be able to keep the HR low 160's. If I can't hold the HR to <165 at sub 3 pace....well, I'll have to back off.

Miles 1,2...ease into it, 7:00 pace

Miles 3,4,5,6,7 6:45 to 6:50 pace

Mile 8,9 I think these are the miles down into the tunnel and up and out up to Mahon, down a bit and then up again to Skehard road. Will be watching HR on these miles (no garmin in the tunnel!) and easing back on the uphills. Its the only 'difficult' section in the first 15 miles. Wind could be a factor here also, very exposed sections and the field will have spread out by then. Could end up with average pace 7:00 for these 2 miles but won't be worried about those 20sec.

10,11 - 6:45 pace

12,13 - The 2 miles prior to the footbridge are miles to watch...into the prevailing wind, exposed section, I'll be looking to shelter behind other runners or relay runners along here if there are portions into a strong wind. Again, won't be worried about pace here, will keep the HR <165 and be prepared to slow down a bit....running too fast for half a mile into a strong headwind will come back to haunt you.

Miles 14, 15, 16 are flat, sheltered, shaded miles and will have the wind at your back if it was strong against you for 12 & 13. Will be looking to run really steady, basically you've approx 25min of flat running to settle things and get ready for the pain.

17-26.2 - Unknown terretory here, HR will be drifting up, wil be watching it closely, but around 18-19 will have to trust how I feel and decide how far to let it push up. Will hopefully be feeling positive at that stage about holding the pace to the end. Its all mental around then....you're going to be hurting but you have to push through it, not give up and fight away the demons that are tempting you to stop, offering you excuses.

tisnotover

Good stuff, thanks for the post, some good detailed info there, especially the bits about running into/with the wind and the first half of course.

Not sure i'm liking the bits about "getting ready for the pain" or the "demons telling you to stop", but those are things I've yet to experience as I haven't ran a marathon before ! :eek:

Gringo78

tisnotover wrote: »

Not sure i'm liking the bits about "getting ready for the pain" or the "demons telling you to stop", but those are things I've yet to experience as I haven't ran a marathon before ! :eek:

I suppose what you need to realise and accept before the day is that no matter how well you trained, things ain't going to be comfortable or happy happy from about 18 miles on. Think about how you
feel towards the end of a 20 mile LSR, now think how you would have felt if
you had just run those 20 miles at PMP. You ain't going to be bouncing along.
You're going to be hurting bad and looking for any opportunity to quit.
You need a goal time and in my opinion you want no fallback plan i.e none of this "Well I'll aim for 3:15 but I'll be happy with 3:30"....if you think like that, when the pain starts you will quit too easily.

Of course theres nothing wrong with looking back on the performance a day later and coming to the conclusion that you were happy with a time 10min slower than the target, but going in to the race, you need to be clear what you're aiming for. If you've left any sort of out, the demons will sell it to you around mile 20. Read Abhainn's race report from Dublin...he ran a fantastic time, hit his target, but what came accross most to me in his report was he found it tough going from about 19miles but never gave up, fought through the pain and never dropped the pace. He ran a great time, but it did not come easy. If you're going to race to your capability, a marathon will always be immensely painful - satisfying afterwards, but you want a mental strength to see you through the last bit when every bit of your body is screaming at you to walk.

I hope to be able to carry out tergats advice in the last 10k - if you're finding it particularly tough going, speed up for a bit. Easier said than done.

Sosa

Gringo78 wrote: »

Yeah, been thinking about it the last few days. With my erratic training over the last 5 or 6 weeks I think I am only borderline sub 3 now so I'm not going to be looking to run any faster than 1:30 for the first half.

If training had gone better over the last 6 weeks my plan would have been to run to my daniels marathon HR (165) and if that was faster than sub 3 pace, all the better. However, now, while I'll be watching the HR I won't be pushing the pace faster than 6:45 (unless its appropriate i.e downhill) and hopefully I'll be able to keep the HR low 160's. If I can't hold the HR to <165 at sub 3 pace....well, I'll have to back off.

Miles 1,2...ease into it, 7:00 pace

Miles 3,4,5,6,7 6:45 to 6:50 pace

Mile 8,9 I think these are the miles down into the tunnel and up and out up to Mahon, down a bit and then up again to Skehard road. Will be watching HR on these miles (no garmin in the tunnel!) and easing back on the uphills. Its the only 'difficult' section in the first 15 miles. Wind could be a factor here also, very exposed sections and the field will have spread out by then. Could end up with average pace 7:00 for these 2 miles but won't be worried about those 20sec.

10,11 - 6:45 pace

12,13 - The 2 miles prior to the footbridge are miles to watch...into the prevailing wind, exposed section, I'll be looking to shelter behind other runners or relay runners along here if there are portions into a strong wind. Again, won't be worried about pace here, will keep the HR <165 and be prepared to slow down a bit....running too fast for half a mile into a strong headwind will come back to haunt you.

Miles 14, 15, 16 are flat, sheltered, shaded miles and will have the wind at your back if it was strong against you for 12 & 13. Will be looking to run really steady, basically you've approx 25min of flat running to settle things and get ready for the pain.

17-26.2 - Unknown terretory here, HR will be drifting up, wil be watching it closely, but around 18-19 will have to trust how I feel and decide how far to let it push up. Will hopefully be feeling positive at that stage about holding the pace to the end. Its all mental around then....you're going to be hurting but you have to push through it, not give up and fight away the demons that are tempting you to stop, offering you excuses.

I'm running with you Gringo,sounds ideal to me.
good info on the course there,thanks

Gringo78

May 12th

4.6 miles on treadmill. Did 5 x 1km intervals @ 6min pace. Felt good, think it was maybe the legs loosened up from the morning run. Idea was to go at LT pace (16km/hr) but HR was never realy hitting as high as LT levels. You can never trust the speed on treadmills though...they're all different.

Seem to be beating the cold

tisnotover

Gringo78 wrote: »

I suppose what you need to realise and accept before the day is that no matter how well you trained, things ain't going to be comfortable or happy happy from about 18 miles on. Think about how you
feel towards the end of a 20 mile LSR, now think how you would have felt if
you had just run those 20 miles at PMP. You ain't going to be bouncing along.
You're going to be hurting bad and looking for any opportunity to quit.
You need a goal time and in my opinion you want no fallback plan i.e none of this "Well I'll aim for 3:15 but I'll be happy with 3:30"....if you think like that, when the pain starts you will quit too easily.

Of course theres nothing wrong with looking back on the performance a day later and coming to the conclusion that you were happy with a time 10min slower than the target, but going in to the race, you need to be clear what you're aiming for. If you've left any sort of out, the demons will sell it to you around mile 20. Read Abhainn's race report from Dublin...he ran a fantastic time, hit his target, but what came accross most to me in his report was he found it tough going from about 19miles but never gave up, fought through the pain and never dropped the pace. He ran a great time, but it did not come easy. If you're going to race to your capability, a marathon will always be immensely painful - satisfying afterwards, but you want a mental strength to see you through the last bit when every bit of your body is screaming at you to walk.

I hope to be able to carry out tergats advice in the last 10k - if you're finding it particularly tough going, speed up for a bit. Easier said than done.

I know I can get to 15-18 miles handy enough at target pace, but its the unknown bit after that, "the world of hurt" as a lad described it to me earlier !
No harm to get the mind-set ready for it now though for when it happens...at this stage I just want the training to be done, and get out and do it+move on, amazing how the mind swings around at times !

Gringo78

May 13th

Lunchtime: 10min on gym bike, followed by 1.6m on treadmill, easy (8:00 pace)
Evening: 12.7m. Avg pace 7:43, avg HR 156. Mixed bag this run. Warmup, then 4x1km @ 6:45 pace (running with a work colleague, 6:45 his 5km pace). Then continued on up Knocknarea. didn't go all the way to the top though. PMP intervals were all HR <160 (target HR 160-165 for marathon)so was happy with that.

May 17th

20min on Gym bike, followed by 3.6miles on Treadmill easy

May 18th

10min on gym bike, followed by 3.3 miles on treadmill

Gringo78

May 19th

10min on gym bike followed by 20min on treadmill. Time in gym curtailed by work call.

May 20th

40min PMP run by HR on Treadmill

Never got in the final LSR I wanted to do so a little worried about my lack of LSR's, but hoping that I won't have lost so much endurance over the last few weeks. Training has not been ideal but feeling more confident about marathon this year:

Positives:

Comfortable at sub 3 pace - lots of sub 3 pace work over the last 8 weeks.
Plenty of undulating runs - Cork will feel very flat in comparison to my normal training runs
LT pace faster by 50sec/mile than my PMP
Not my debut this year, so not venturing into the unknown.
Confident about nutrition strategy
While the avg mpw is not what I wanted, add in the extra swimming and gym I've done and things don't look so bad. If anything, I'm stronger than Ballycotton and would be confident of running Sub 60 for 10 miles in the morning even though I haven't been doing many tempo runs lately.

Negatives:

Didn't hit the mileage I wanted - wanted 50mpw, actual will be around 33mpw
Not enough LSR's - 5 longest 20.5, 20.1, 19.6, 18.5, 17.6 - last one however will have been almost 6 weeks before the marathon
Very few races this year - only 2, but I don't think you need to be race sharp for a marathon - more pace sharp which I am

So all in all, looking forward to the marathon. Yeah, I'd like my training to have been better but with work, family etc it was the best I could do. Got a bit of bad luck with a couple of colds/chest infections in march/april but hopefully over all of that now.

Sub 3 is most definitly the goal and a realistic one. HR averaged 167 in Cork last year up to hitting the wall. Was running 3:12 pace to that point (7:20/ml) which was 30sec/ml slower than my LT pace. This year I hope to be running 50sec/ml slower than LT pace, at an avg HR of around 160-163. Training Summary attached below.

Sosa

Best of luck with it Gringo....you are positive,thats half the battle...and you seem to have your strategy in place....just need the legs to comply on the day !
I'll see you up there

tisnotover

Good stuff Gringo, must put up a summary of my training myself !

I think this bit is the key for you:
"LT pace faster by 50sec/mile than my PMP"

The pace will feel comfortable in Cork.....positive thoughts !

Gringo78

tisnotover wrote: »

I think this bit is the key for you:
"LT pace faster by 50sec/mile than my PMP"

The pace will feel comfortable in Cork.....positive thoughts !

Yeah, I'm hoping that will keep things feeling reasonable to 20 miles. I'll know by halfway if I'm doing ok. I've more endurance than last year so if I can keep the HR well below last years efforts, get plenty of gels into me, I won't be hitting any wall.

Timely to quote from my log last year, with some comments:

Gringo78 wrote: »

Next year I will look back at things and if I am to achieve my goals I will need to do the following:

-keep a log Yep, done.
-16-18 week program hitting >40 miles every week (from a good base prior to starting into that) Light on the miles, but have had many months of quality training, didn't leave things lapse during the winter
-Need to run at least 5 days a week wasn't too far off this, averaged 4.5 days a week
-2 week taper is all I require not 3 week (other people maybe require 3 week, others 1 week but 2 weeks is loads for me). Feel like I've been tapering for weeks!
-Have to get the long runs in - need 5 @ 20 or greater. Need to run them by heart rate rather than pace - 160bpm building up to 165/168bpm for the last 2 or 3. I was wrong on this - LSR's need to easy, seperate training sessions required for PMP HR which I've done
-168bpm is roughly the right HR for me to maintain in a marathon Wrong on this also - more like max 165 (up to the last few miles). 168 is more my half marathon HR.
-need to get the energy drinks/gels into me from 13/14 miles in the marathon so that they are available as energy by miles 18/19/20 Wrong on this also - 14 miles in is too late, need to start the gels from 60min in which is 8.8miles, then every 25min.

Gringo78

May 23rd

Short PMP run in the hot midday sun. Tried the racing flats on the road to make sure I was comfortable to use them for the marathon. 4.25 miles at avg pace 6:32, avg HR 159. Was able to comfortably keep the HR below 160 at well below PMP pace and threw in 0.25m at 5:00 pace at the end for no other reason than it felt good to inject a bit of pace. Skipped the 10k race as child was sick. Wore cap and sun glasses also which I'll wear on the day if its sunny. Heat didn't bother me too much as there was still a breeze but wouldn't have fancied 26 miles in it.

May 24th

15.2 miles, hilly, at avg pace 7:39, avg HR 146 w/ 2 @ PMP. PMP miles were at avg HR 157 so this was a real confidence booster, to have the HR below 160. Felt very strong on this run. Twas warm out but had no water but didn't feel thirsty. Took one gel at 11 miles. On the easy miles, in trying to keep effort even i.e ease back on hills, speed up on downhills, pace ranged from 7:00 to 8:30. Won't be afraid to back off on hills in Cork

May 25th

Swimming: 500m in 50m reps trying to improve technique. Good workout to recover from yesterdays run.

Gringo78

May 25th

10 miles very easy & relaxed at avg pace 07:44, avg HR 142

tisnotover

Looking good Gringo, the HR for your longer runs is impressive as always!
Not long to go now!

Gringo78

tisnotover wrote: »

Looking good Gringo, the HR for your longer runs is impressive as always!
Not long to go now!

Cheers. Probably shouldn't have run 10 yesterday evening, 5 or 6 would have been enough, but it was a very easy run and gave me confidence. 12 days to go....there'll be no more 10 milers now I think. Easy Bike/Run today in the gym, maybe 5x1km @LT pace on thurs & 3x1mile @ 10k pace next Tues and thats it. Any other training I manage to get in will be easy run, easy bike/run or some swimming.

Got me some dioralyte also....anyone use that before in a marathon? How much is safe to use and can it upset the stomach, never got to test it out on a long run but might try a sachet next week on an easy run.

Gringo78

May 26th

12min on gym bike and then 2.5k easy (8:00min miles, HR<130) on treadmill. Estimate my FTP on the bike to be approx 230W so putting the bike at 200W and build up to 20min at that before upping the level. After the marathon will devote a bit more time to the bike.

tisnotover

Gringo78 wrote: »

Got me some dioralyte also....anyone use that before in a marathon? How much is safe to use and can it upset the stomach, never got to test it out on a long run but might try a sachet next week on an easy run.

Whats the dioralyte ? thought I saw it mentioned somewhere before...

Gringo78

tisnotover wrote: »

Whats the dioralyte ? thought I saw it mentioned somewhere before...

Primary Use: Replacement of lost fluids and electrolytes associated with acute diarrhoea.

May also be useful in a marathon on a hot day (doesn't say that on the packet however). I'll use it if i think I'm sweating excessively. There minimal salts in the gels & water so if you've a lot of sweating, you need some salt replacement