flavio back

mickdw

Flavios lifetime ban has been overturned by french court. Was always going to happen I guess.

Oblomov

But not the verdict.. only the punishment...

Tragedy

I'm disgusted.

projectmayhem

All too often this sport manages to completely fail

Slutmonkey57b

Great play by Flavio though. He gets all his moneyspinners back, stays at QPR and embarrasses Max. No-one in F1 is going to employ him, that's not the point. If anything, he's done F1 a favour here by exposing the FIA's lack of competence. Hopefully it'll spark a move for real reform of the "judicial" system, and some proper administration of the sport.

RayM

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

Great play by Flavio though. He gets all his moneyspinners back, stays at QPR and embarrasses Max. No-one in F1 is going to employ him, that's not the point. If anything, he's done F1 a favour here by exposing the FIA's lack of competence. Hopefully it'll spark a move for real reform of the "judicial" system, and some proper administration of the sport.

I can see him returning to F1. He's a very wealthy man and doesn't need anybody to employ him. Don't forget, at one point when he was running Benetton, he also owned Ligier and briefly had a controlling interest in Minardi. Following that, he owned Supertec, which supplied engines to a third of the cars on the grid.

All it takes is for one of the new teams to run into a bit of financial difficulty, and he'll be like a rat up a drainpipe. I'll be shocked if he isn't running a team or flogging them engines or something by this time next year.

fh041205

Heres the story http://www.rte.ie/sport/motorsport/2010/0105/briatoref_renault.html

If he does want to come back he'll be able to quite easily. It seems like most people are going the opposite direction from F1 these days.

De Hipster

Am glad to hear the ban was overturned, he was being scapegoated for being found out in a sport that has tolerated corruption and rule flouting for decades.

IM0

I remember something the guys on setanta said at the time of the ban, that taking away a mans livlihood like that (without any criminal charges being levied on them at the same time) was an unfair thing to do regardless of how much money you have.

People need to spend time working regardless of how seemingly pointless that is when you're as rich as he is, never a good thing to have too much time on your hands, and people like that go insane if they cant 'work'.

look at his personality, driven to succeed, and a very succesfull businessman rising through the ranks like that.

Tragedy

De Hipster wrote: »

Am glad to hear the ban was overturned, he was being scapegoated for being found out in a sport that has tolerated corruption and rule flouting for decades.

Now, next time corruption like this is found, it'll be even harder to do something about it.

Happy?

cadaliac

So what do we have now?
A formula 1 governing body who’s already questionable directors and management team has been "punished" for breaking all of their own self imposed rules.
Now, after their own "punishment" which has been imposed by themselves, is now not worth the paper it was written on.
Might as well not have a governing body for the sport.
Between Max Mosley and his antics, Ferrari and McLaren bickering, lying, stealing/selling secrets and so froth and then a major story about staging a crash to promote a team mate within a team, it seems that the sport is in complete disarray. It looks like there is nobody at the wheel so to speak.

frostie500

I think that my main issue with the entire crash-gate episode was that it was so plainly obvious that the FIA was railroading Briatore. Over the course of the information coming out and the circumstances of the accident everyone agreed that it was Nelson Piquet Jr who instigated the crash and came up with the plan. Why was he given immunity and not a lifetime ban for as the FIA said via a statement "the FIA intends to consider appropriate actions to ensure that no persons who would engage, or who have engaged, in such dangerous activities or acts of intentional cheating will be allowed to participate in Formula One in the future."

While I, like everyone else I'd imagine, was shocked that a team would make the decision that Renault made and feel that the major players should be punished it should be within reason. Piquet is free to drive in F1 again, or any other FIA series, and make his living why should Pat Symonds and Flavio have been held to any other penalty. As me@UCD said you cant take away a persons livlihood.

If there was only a short term ban(say 2 years) the FIA would have been able to get what they wanted with Flavio away from the sport at the height of the power struggle and coming back at the age of what, 65?, would he return after spending a few years on his boat and living it up? Who knows but by going with incredible hefty penalities on the team principals and letting the instigator of the crash off with no punishment, not to mention the immense gratification of having the man that fired him banned for life the FIA brought this action upon itself.

Justice was served. The FIA was not just in its vandetta against Briatore and their own actions have directly led to them looking inept and impotent in a court of law and public opinion

De Hipster

Tragedy wrote: »

Now, next time corruption like this is found, it'll be even harder to do something about it.

Happy?

Not the point. Why should one be held to account for the flaws of the sport's governing body, rules and political structure?

Tea 1000

cadaliac wrote: »

So what do we have now?
A formula 1 governing body who’s already questionable directors and management team has been "punished" for breaking all of their own self imposed rules.
Now, after their own "punishment" which has been imposed by themselves, is now not worth the paper it was written on.
Might as well not have a governing body for the sport.
Between Max Mosley and his antics, Ferrari and McLaren bickering, lying, stealing/selling secrets and so froth and then a major story about staging a crash to promote a team mate within a team, it seems that the sport is in complete disarray. It looks like there is nobody at the wheel so to speak.

Ari was the man for the wheel, but alas that wasn't to be.

Tragedy

De Hipster wrote: »

Not the point. Why should one be held to account for the flaws of the sport's governing body, rules and political structure?

How was he being held to account for any of those things?

He was being held to account for leading a team that cheated. The fact others have gotten away with it before isn't the point. The fact Max Mosley is a c*nt isn't the point. The fact Piquet got away with a slap on the wrist isn't the point.

They were actually starting to punish people for cheating.

Now that's gone backwards. Not to the status quo - backwards.

frostie500

Tragedy wrote: »

How was he being held to account for any of those things?

He was being held to account for leading a team that cheated. The fact others have gotten away with it before isn't the point. The fact Max Mosley is a c*nt isn't the point. The fact Piquet got away with a slap on the wrist isn't the point.

They were actually starting to punish people for cheating.

Now that's gone backwards. Not to the status quo - backwards.

Its more of a backwards step to go on a vandeta against any one person. The FIA gave immunity to Piquet, offered it to Symonds and gave the Renault team no penalty at all(a suspended sentence) the only person that the FIA wished to be held accountable was Flavio. That isnt fair and it wasnt justice when Flavio was penalised.

By only going after Flavio they weren't starting to punish people they were only looking to punish one person for his actions in trying to lead the breakaway threat as well as one person who always stood against Max Mosley when Max was doing things against the interests of the sports.

I dont think for a second that Renault, Piquet, Symonds and Falvio should get away with no penalties at all but that is exactly what has occured because Max Mosley used his office as his tool for a personal vandeta against Flavio Briatore.

EvilMonkey

Flavio is a genius, not very likeable but a smart man.
He played this perfectly. He got Renault off the hook, let the FIA have there grandstand moment issuing their lifetime ban, while he never admit to anything and refused to acknowledge the FIA's authority by not attending and now has got his and Symonds ban overturned and the FIA look like fools and have to compensate him.

How many times can one guy get away with cheating? :pac:

Looks like Max has left Todt a bit of a mess to clear up.

Not sure if we will see Flavio back in F1 with a team but I'm sure he will be back in his manager role and no doubt will attend a few GP's to rub the FIA's nose in it.

Oblomov

Not a problem, the ruling was that as Flavio and Symonds are not licensed or 'members' of the club, the committee could not punish them.. all the 'club' do.. make it an all members club and refuse membership to Briatorre and Symonds.. very simple. Ensure that all participants and not just the drivers have ' Super licences'

Why punish the name holders, Renault, when the man in charge plots and connives behind their back and without their knowledge. Renault were seen to do the right thing, be contrite and move away from the villains of the piece.

The French court of appeal commented on the punishment, not the verdict arrive at by the FIA. The court did not offer an alternative, their judgement was on the factual basis of the punishment, a life time ban from the sport.

frostie500

Oblomov wrote: »

Why punish the name holders, Renault, when the man in charge plots and connives behind their back and without their knowledge. Renault were seen to do the right thing, be contrite and move away from the villains of the piece.

But do you not think that it is crazy that an organisation is not held accountable for the actions of their employees? They hired all the key players-Flavio, Symonds and Piquet-and gave them a free reign over the team. Their poor management could be seen to have directly led to the event. By not having proper control over their race team Renault allowed a situation to develop that was detrimental to the inegrity of Formula 1 and motor sports, and yet they are not held accountable

Oblomov

Example: Take IBM... they contract out participation in the Iditarod husky dog race.... the man running the team swaps the lead dogs and has another team of dogs waiting to win the race..... who's the guilty party.. IBM? the team leader or the people supplying the dogs??

OK for the falling on the sword bit, Renault are seen to participate but at what level of involvement? They cry mea culpa, and fire the team leaders... FIA, clap hands and say well done.

Renault is a global organisation, the CEO cannot be involved at every level with every facet of the business. The directors responsible are the men that take the stick. The Board of Directors, what ever their personal feelings, close ranks and shun the wrong doers.

Fact of life. Happens in all large organisations. Get caught and woe betide.

True story... man is fiddling his suppliers to gain extra bonus figure for the sake of the company.. gets caught ... Company is seen to rebuke and demote man... in private, hard luck, just wait awhile and all back to normal letter of contrition to suppliers and on with the game. Man returns to position and all appears to be forgotten.. Company closes.. Man is almost kicked out ... while he was making money for the company good but.. once it was over... swoosh.

frostie500

I understand what youre saying but I look at F1 as a sport not a business hence why I think the team should be culpable as well as the individuals.

That being said, as I earlier stated the FIA offered imunity to Piquet and Symonds and with Renault only getting a suspended sentence it's pretty clear that with Renault selling the team that themselves and Mosley came to an agreement to avoid a ban and make the team still viable to be sold on as has happened.

Thats my beef with this whole episode and from what most writers have written when discussing Flavio. It's not fair for the office governing body, which claims to be an impartial adjudicator, is used so clearly and despicably by the figurehead of motorsport to rage a vandeta against a very public enemy. As a lifelong fan of the sport I find it deplorable when officials do that to our sport. They are custodians of what we love and they treat it so badly and do untold damage to the credibility of the sport that is what I hate about this situation. It's not going to stop me and the hard core fans watching racing but the negative publicity has to stop some people tuning in

Oblomov

Frostie500, I admire your principles but... F1 stopped being a sport when the teams asked Bernie to run the whole things and the dynamic duo of Max and Bernie took over.

Bernie took the whole thing, with the help of the Tobacco Barons to a new level... to keep everyone in line Max became the Top Honcho...and as they say.. the rest is history.

Now, Flavio, have a read of the guys past history.. took Benneton into the USA and it became big business...... consider that for a moment. new fresh business arrives in America and begins to opens stores, advertise and ..... all on his own? Italian.. good, New businessman in a new country... must have had some influential friends.

His upbringing, son of two teachers, failed education, opened restrurant, went bankrupt, door to door insurance salesman, nothing to mark him out as a potential super rich...... became assistant to businessman Attilio Dutto, owner of the Paramatti Vernici paint company........

this is where it gets all ... well... the paint company was previously owned by a known Mafia guy who was bumped off in prison for having murdered a lawyer... the new owner .. Flavio boss, Attilio Dutto... suddenly dies in a car explosion.. and .. then Flavio started his business career... and went on to make millions.

Flavio was convicted of swindles, sentenced to prison.. absconded.. Oh the swindle was dodgy playing cards... he was then involved in the bankruptcy of the Paramatti Paint company...... dodges and dives, meets the Benneton boss and .. managed to be appointed to the Groups American operations..... started a franchising operations... over 800 stores and with Flavio taking a percentage.. then store owner began to complain of other stores... typical pyramid selling, the number of stores dropped to two hundred and Flavio was off to find new business.... and hello F1 .....

You can draw your own conclusions but, the man has had some very dubious friends and his methods of business are ..do not bear close scrutiny..

Would you want this man running your business? If you want to make money and not to squeamish about how... Ok but his record within F1, the way he managed to sign Michael Schumacher, with the help of Bernie and etc, etc, etc...

F1 is big business, from CVC to FIA, from Ferrari and McLaren to USF1 and Lotus.. The various ho;ding companies, Bambino, SLEC, CVC.. MTV sale and buy back.. the number of inquiries, articles in The Economist lots of spotlights but the show runs on and on... too much money involved to let it become stale or moribund

none of the team owners are poor men, ..now ..... but before Bernie came along.. scratching....

The political dodges and manipulations .. the influence of the tobacco barons, even now in the Far East.. legislation does not ban tobacco in the Far East and where are the new circuits being opened..

Maybe I am too cynical, but maybe not.

Slutmonkey57b

And now it gets very interesting:

When asked by Italian newspaper Gazzetta dello Sport if he was now planning to take action against the Piquets, Briatore replied: "That's very likely. The bad that has been done to me won't be forgotten in one day."

I don't believe he'll go after the Piquets in any meaningful way because of the possibility there'd be an actual investigation into the whole thing. But Maximus made a lot of potentially defamatory statements in the press...

Briatore suggested yesterday that he had not yet decided whether to return to Formula 1, but he intends to resume his driver management activities - another area that was affected by the FIA ban.

"Except for [Heikki] Kovalainen and [Lucas] di Grassi, my relationship with the other drivers has never changed," he said.

"In fact, now we'll analyse the situation with the lawyers to see whether we should take legal action against anyone who has broken the contracts with us."

This is where the action is now. The FIA's ban caused him to lose contracts. The people under contract are license holders from the FIA and were complying with instructions from that body. Are the drivers legally liable for breach of contract, or the FIA for forcing them to break the contract?

se conman

Who is more "guilty"? Max for getting his own way or the rest of the FIA for not having backbone to stand up to him because they have votes on decissions as well.
Also , EVERYONE involved in "crashgate" should have been thrown out of motorsport for good IMHO.

frostie500

Oblomov wrote: »

Frostie500, I admire your principles but... F1 stopped being a sport when the teams asked Bernie to run the whole things and the dynamic duo of Max and Bernie took over.

I know F1 stopped being a sport a long time ago....but the business channel doesnt interest me half as much!;) I still look upon it as being a sport, albeit one awashed with money at times

Oblomov wrote: »

Now, Flavio, have a read of the guys past history.. took Benneton into the USA and it became big business...... consider that for a moment. new fresh business arrives in America and begins to opens stores, advertise and ..... all on his own? Italian.. good, New businessman in a new country... must have had some influential friends.

I think that this is tad slanderous!:D

Oblomov wrote: »

Would you want this man running your business? If you want to make money and not to squeamish about how... Ok but his record within F1, the way he managed to sign Michael Schumacher, with the help of Bernie and etc, etc, etc...

His record in the past isnt good, Benetton were at the height of lots of scandals but he wasnt being punished for those in the hearings. He was solely being punished for his involvment in the crash. Just out of curiousity what do you think he did wrong in signing Schumi? Jordan signed Michael to a one race deal not knowing his full potential and Briatore saw enough at Spa, like everyone else in the paddock, to offer Schumi a race seat for two years in a top team. There was nothing underhand in his dealing to sign Schumacher

Oblomov wrote: »

Maybe I am too cynical, but maybe not.

F1 hasnt lent itself for people to think the best of situations over the past twenty years. I just think that over the course of the crash investigation and court case that Max Mosley used his power incorrectly and with the sole motive of destroying a man that he had a known dislike toward. I dont think Flavio is a whiter then white guy but justice isnt served by vengfullness and desire to destroy, thats street justice and has no place in sport or indeed any form of life in this day and age

cadaliac

Max mightn't like Flavio, but that in it self is no reason to back Flavio and say that the "sport" as a whole or indeed flavio isn't whiter than white.
Mosley and his antics speak for themselves. Flavio wouldn't piss on any driver if they were on fire if he thought they would stand in his way of making money.
So, for the last little glimmer of hope that we have to keep the sport an actual sport, we will be better off without the likes of a flamboyant, rouge-ish type that everyone seems to like just because he has flash boats and groupies.
He is a pr1ck. He used the sport for financial gain. - Yes I know others do also, but he really could have damaged the sport. He is one of these guys that seems to wreck everything around him.

My 2c.

frostie500

cadaliac wrote: »

Max mightn't like Flavio, but that in it self is no reason to back Flavio and say that the "sport" as a whole or indeed flavio isn't whiter than white.
Mosley and his antics speak for themselves. Flavio wouldn't piss on any driver if they were on fire if he thought they would stand in his way of making money.
So, for the last little glimmer of hope that we have to keep the sport an actual sport, we will be better off without the likes of a flamboyant, rouge-ish type that everyone seems to like just because he has flash boats and groupies.
He is a pr1ck. He used the sport for financial gain. - Yes I know others do also, but he really could have damaged the sport. He is one of these guys that seems to wreck everything around him.

My 2c.

Speaking for myself I dont back Briatore, he should be punished for part of the scandal but not him alone in my view. All the guilty parties should be punished.

But does two wrongs make a right? By soley looking to punish Briatore(everyone else got off without a penalty or was offered immunity) Mosley brought a personal vandetta against him to get Briatore out of the paddock for good. If he did that with all the other players I wouldnt have an issue but by soley going after one guy the sport takes a massive hit.

cadaliac

frostie500 wrote: »

Speaking for myself I dont back Briatore, he should be punished for part of the scandal but not him alone in my view. All the guilty parties should be punished.

But does two wrongs make a right? By soley looking to punish Briatore(everyone else got off without a penalty or was offered immunity) Mosley brought a personal vandetta against him to get Briatore out of the paddock for good. If he did that with all the other players I wouldnt have an issue but by soley going after one guy the sport takes a massive hit.

Yes, point taken, and I have to agree. I guess that this is the whole problem with the governing body of the sport.
Personal vandettas, personal gain, and no real love for the sport. As a poster already said, Ari Vatanen is the man, but alas.......

Oblomov

I think that this is tad slanderous

Why, factual information and in the public domain. any personal inference can be construe in a number of ways and avoids the finger pointing and 'J'accuse'

The Jordan/shumie/ Bernie interlude...... Schumie had just completed his first race with Jordan, Jordan was very pleased .. and wanted to sign Michael... along come Bernie and sez, Toyota need an F1 team for their engines.. and if you get in quickly, like now... you can... So Eddie Jordan and fellow directors hot foot to Japan.., I think it was four of them... booked one room and share the bed and the floor because of a lack of funds...... mean while back in Europe Bernie pushes Michael to Flavio who is told that German TV would like a German driver in the line up to be able to sell F1 on national TV... so while Eddie was away the .. game was played and .. Eddie returned without a Toyota contract and no new driver.

But, that's F1... the movement of sponsors, the funds involved and the guiding influence of the ring master.

fh041205

Oblomov wrote: »

Why, factual information and in the public domain. any personal inference can be construe in a number of ways and avoids the finger pointing and 'J'accuse'

The Jordan/shumie/ Bernie interlude...... Schumie had just completed his first race with Jordan, Jordan was very pleased .. and wanted to sign Michael... along come Bernie and sez, Toyota need an F1 team for their engines.. and if you get in quickly, like now... you can... So Eddie Jordan and fellow directors hot foot to Japan.., I think it was four of them... booked one room and share the bed and the floor because of a lack of funds...... mean while back in Europe Bernie pushes Michael to Flavio who is told that German TV would like a German driver in the line up to be able to sell F1 on national TV... so while Eddie was away the .. game was played and .. Eddie returned without a Toyota contract and no new driver.

But, that's F1... the movement of sponsors, the funds involved and the guiding influence of the ring master.

I always hated Schumacher for that. Ralf did something similar to Jordan (in '98 possibly). Just another fantastic driver that Eddie brought to F1.

frostie500

Oblomov wrote: »

The Jordan/shumie/ Bernie interlude...... Schumie had just completed his first race with Jordan, Jordan was very pleased .. and wanted to sign Michael... along come Bernie and sez, Toyota need an F1 team for their engines.. and if you get in quickly, like now... you can... So Eddie Jordan and fellow directors hot foot to Japan.., I think it was four of them... booked one room and share the bed and the floor because of a lack of funds...... mean while back in Europe Bernie pushes Michael to Flavio who is told that German TV would like a German driver in the line up to be able to sell F1 on national TV... so while Eddie was away the .. game was played and .. Eddie returned without a Toyota contract and no new driver.

But, that's F1... the movement of sponsors, the funds involved and the guiding influence of the ring master.

I never heard of them and the link with Toyota. I thought that they agreed a deal with Yamaha earlier that Summer, cant be sure though I was only a wee kid at the time! But thats Eddie poorly managing his team and not signing up Schumi to a long term deal. Schumacher was a free agent when he signed with Benetton, I dont understand what you think Briatore did unfairly/unjustly in regards to signing Schumacher.

If what you say is true its more of an idicment on Bernie rather then Briatore but I would still place the blame with Jordan for not signing Schumi to a long term when it was clear from his first GP weekend that he had tremendous ability

fh041205

The simple answer I'd imagine is that Jordan just couldn't afford it. It may have been clear to some people that he was talented but a relatively new and financially unstable F1 team committing long contracts to unproven newcomers is a recipe for ruin IMO.

Oblomov

Regardless to the actual events.. to plot and connive to get Michael signed while Eddie was sent on a wild goose chase.. Bernie and Flavio were in it together to ensure that Michael was signed to Benneton and with the blessing of the German TV company.... The scenario of Eddie getting support from the German TV to pay Michael while he was contracted to Jordan was a feasible proposition.

Jordan were not considered high enough profile and with enough kudoes to accommodate Michael.

but, why not be open and negotiate, that might have meant paying Jordan in some sort of compensation... Jordan did have a moan but internal bits and pieces went suddenly quiet over the deal. Some sort of pay-off?