EPL Team Of The Decade - Goalkeeers

Xavi6

bayviewclose wrote: »

why is it a pity his nationality is been brought into it. He is Irish we should celebrate the fact. Again I will say we will miss him loads when he goes.

There is no need to celebrate his Irishness because it has absolutely nothing to do with the question posed by the thread.

We're looking for the best Premier League goalkeeper of the decade. Nationality doesn't come into it, yet it has brought up on both sides of the argument on Given and completely takes away from his ability and PREMIER LEAGUE achievements, which is what we are discussing.

Spiritoftheseventies

Xavi6 wrote: »

There is no need to celebrate his Irishness because it has absolutely nothing to do with the question posed by the thread.

We're looking for the best Premier League goalkeeper of the decade. Nationality doesn't come into it, yet it has brought up on both sides of the argument on Given and completely takes away from his ability and PREMIER LEAGUE achievements, which is what we are discussing.

agreed but was merely stating his worth to the national team.

PHB

Given is a joke of a decision. Why do you think that the best managers in the league all decided not to buy him? Why has he never gotten that big four move?

VDS, Cech and Reina are all better than him.

Johner

Xavi6 wrote: »

I don't buy the accusation that he is poor on crosses. In fact I would say he is an excellent judge of when and when not to come. His stature has always counted against him in comparison to the likes of Cech and Van der Sar. He gives away 5 inches on them (in height, lol) and is therefore not going to be as dominant in the air.
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Thing is Given never really does come for crosses and tends to stay on his line and deal with what happens after wards, He is obviously excellent at this but sometimes it goes wrong.

Given is definitely up there with the best of the decade but I'd go for Brad.

Spiritoftheseventies

Johner wrote: »

Thing is Given never really does come for crosses and tends to stay on his line and deal with what happens after wards, He is obviously excellent at this but sometimes it goes wrong.

Given is definitely up there with the best of the decade but I'd go for Brad.

For me Given is the best shot stopper bar none. But Reina has the best all round package. Has really grown into the pool jersey in last few years. Like i said before a rock.

redzerdrog

is there any point running this i can tell you now how it is going to end up purely because people cant leave aside bias even for a bloody poll.

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given

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g neville---- stam

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vidic

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evra

ronaldo

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keane----scholes

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giggs

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van nistelrooy

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henry

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with given getting in because he is irish and henry getting up because he was bloody brilliant skill wouldnt suprise me if they tried to get rooney in there aswell

Johner

bayviewclose wrote: »

For me Given is the best shot stopper bar none. But Reina has the best all round package. Has really grown into the pool jersey in last few years. Like i said before a rock.

Yeah I'd agree Reina is the best in the PL at the moment. He is definitely the best all round keeper imo.

iregk

Reina is a good keeper but I think whats often over looked is the fact that since joining liverpool he has played in teh most defensively minded team in the country. Liverpool constantly play with a bank of 6-8 on the edge of the box so a shot on the Liverpool goal is rare.

Reina is not and never has been as good as Cech was pre Stephen Hunt. VDS is also a better keeper than Reina however Liverpool fans will never admit to that.

As a model of consistency I'd have to go with Given especially when you consider the shocking defenses he has played behind yet still been absolute class. Its only this year we are seeing the likes of Reina and VDS for their true worth now that the defenses aren't as good as previous year or in Liverpools case they've not been as defense so he has had more to deal with.

SlickRic

there is no reason Given should not get this.

yes, his margin of victory is going to be a bit ridiculous.

but he deserves every compliment and plaudit he gets.

a wonderful keeper, who we should celebrate.

people rolling out these clichés of 'he's bad at crosses', 'he's not commanding', 'he can't kick'...it's just begrudging nonsense.

i've never seen him f*ck up at any of these things, plus i can remember 1, maybe 2, f*ck ups full stop in the entire decade from him.

this whole 'Given should never get it' cr*p just reeks of people just trying to be contrary. apart from the 'he hasn't played for a top 4 club' argument, there is no other reasonable reason why he shouldn't at least be in very strong contention for this award.

Mr Alan

the reason you havent seen him mess it up Slick is cause he doesn't do it! he is rooted to that line & he ain't coming for nowt. its a huge issue when judging a goalkeeper.

SlickRic

Mr Alan wrote: »

the reason you havent seen him mess it up Slick is cause he doesn't do it! he is rooted to that line & he ain't coming for nowt.

that's just plain untrue.

as has been said, he gives away 5 inches on other top goalies.

it's much better that he waits for his moments to come out, rather than try to dominate by coming 10 yards off his line regularly, trying to come through a meleé of players. he just wouldn't be able to do it due to his small stature. so he just chooses to save the potential header/shot instead, pr let his defenders deal with it. at least they know where they stand. indecision in a golakeeper is a lot worse.

i hate bias in these polls, and i promise i'm not voting for him out of any irish bias. i genuinely think he deserves to be in the reckoning.

Mr Alan

he is an inch shorter than Reina.

Mr.Nice Guy

PHB wrote: »

Given is a joke of a decision. Why do you think that the best managers in the league all decided not to buy him? Why has he never gotten that big four move?

VDS, Cech and Reina are all better than him.

I can't believe this comment. You're praising Cech? He's been shocking the past two years and is proving a liability for Chelsea. How many points has he cost them this season alone?

Why did the best managers decide not to buy Given? Well Liverpool decided to let Friedel go and until they got Reina I think their fans would admit they wished he'd stayed. Wenger decided to keep faith with Almunia and would you rate him over Given? I sure wouldn't. And Fergie, who we both respect, even he acknowledged prior to signing Van Der Sar that he had never properly replaced Schmeichel up until then, i.e. he had got it wrong with his signings.

Shay Given has been a two-time member of the PFA Team of the Year (with a Newcastle defence in front of him remember) and if it hadn't been for VDS's clean sheet record last season, he would have had a great shout of being in there again. I believe he merited it. Cech wouldn't have even been in contention last season.

I agree with SlickRic. People bring up laughable arguments to knock the guy but I find them gross exaggerations. The man is an outstanding talent who, if he was English, would be held in the same regard as the other top keepers around the world as he'd have the reputation behind him bigging him up. Unfortunately I would say he's been Ireland's only world class player for the last few years.

Let's celebrate the guy and not engage in the usual Irish practice of putting down our own due to an inferiority complex.

SlickRic

Mr Alan wrote: »

he is an inch shorter than Reina.

and you think Reina is that vast an improvement on Given?

Reina doesn't come miles off his line unnecessarily either.

i can count more f*ck ups from Reina in the last 5 years than Given. not that he's the better keeper, i don't believe he is, but any edge Reina has on him, can be negated by Given's longevity, in terms of this vote.

i seriously don't understand the opinion that Given doesn't deserve to be in with a shot of this.

8-10

Cech, by a good bit. Incredible keeper and a great clean-sheet record. He's been off throughout 2009 I'll concede, but remember how good he was before then and will be again.

The league won't see a better keeper this decade. This poll makes no sense.

SlickRic

8-10 wrote: »

Cech, by a good bit. Incredible keeper and a great clean-sheet record. He's been off throughout 2009 I'll concede, but remember how good he was before then and will be again.

cech shouldn't get this.

considering he's been pretty cr*p for nigh on 2 years now.

a great keeper, granted.

but for one, i can count more mistakes from him in that time, than most of the rest of the options in the poll from the last 9/10 years.

ziggy

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SlickRic

ziggy wrote: »

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i didn't say he doesn't, i just said he picks his moments.

he won't clear a meleé of players very often, no. if that's a weakness, so be it. but as a defender, i'd prefer to know that when he comes out, he'll get it. rather than a situation you so often get of keepers coming for over 50% of crosses and missing a share of them. or perhaps worse, coming out a bit, then going back to his line.

as i say, it's a very thin argument for me, and a reason to criticise him. it's just picking out one trait, and amplifying it 10 fold just as a reason to begrudge him.

Pighead

PHB wrote: »

Given is a joke of a decision. Why do you think that the best managers in the league all decided not to buy him? Why has he never gotten that big four move?

VDS, Cech and Reina are all better than him.

Nah, wouldn't agree with that. I'd have Given ahead of VDS, better than Cech bar maybe those one or two seasons Cech was amazing and I'd have him slightly ahead of Reina.

The fact he hasn't been picked up by a top four club is one of lifes great mysteries. Utd especially could have done with him at various stages during the post Schmeichel disaster- keeper years. Anyway Peter Shilton was one of the top goalkeepers of the 80's and he never played with any of the major clubs. Sometimes these things happen. Shouldn't detract from Shay's reputation.

ziggy

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Pighead

ziggy wrote: »

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Who did you vote for ziggy?

ziggy

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SlickRic

ziggy wrote: »

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who would you vote for?

LuckyLloyd

PHB wrote: »

Given is a joke of a decision. Why do you think that the best managers in the league all decided not to buy him? Why has he never gotten that big four move?

VDS, Cech and Reina are all better than him.

Yeah, the big four have never made mistakes / incorrectly assessed the value of players before.

Spiritoftheseventies

PHB wrote: »

Given is a joke of a decision. Why do you think that the best managers in the league all decided not to buy him? Why has he never gotten that big four move?

VDS, Cech and Reina are all better than him.

hope it doesnt happen for club reasons but think Given may be playing champions league football sooner than you think.

CHD

Wow people rate Cech? He is muck. I guarantee I have seen him a hell of alot more than people here praising him. When he first arrived he had arguably the best defence around with Makelele protecting them in front of him. Yes he was brilliant when called upon but that lasted for a season and a half. His form dipped slightly then the terrible incident with Hunt happened and ever since then he has been error prone and just plain terrible. Lately he likes to give out about the fans too and I'm pretty sure alot of fans wouldn't mind seeing him replaced and sold.

PHB

Cech ain't the same since the injury, before that, he was rightly called the best goal keeper in the world imo.

Given looks good because he does a ****load of shot stopping. Same with Friedal. They play in ****e defences and constantly make amazing saves. That's impressive, but it's not that impressive. Both suffer in their general command of the area, which is part of the reason why their defense is so ****.

People love him because he makes saves constantly, but in reality, the best goalkeepers out there, the best, do absolutely nothing, nothing for 70 minutes, make one top class save, then do nothing again. The best goal keepers are part of a defence that don't have shots on them, because they play as a sweeper/organiser. The best goalkeepers play for the top clubs by in large. Given is great for City and was great for Newcastle, but when you are trying to keep a clean sheet in every single game in order to win a championship, he aint up for it. Neither is Friedal. Cech and VDS have done that.

It's also a joke, a joke, that Lehmann isn't in there. The man broke the record for 10 clean sheets in the CL, 10!! Went 853 minutes without concedding a goal.

VDS - English League Record Breaker. 3 Title Wins and a CL
Lehmann - Champions League Record Breaker. Title Winner
Cech - Record Breaker. 3 Title Wins.
Reina - Champions League Winner

And these people have a combined vote of 29.

I'm sorry, but people clearly haven't a clue what they are talking about.

Xavi6

ziggy wrote: »

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Can I ask how you would know that or what you're basing that on? Just curious.

JPA

PHB wrote: »

Cech ain't the same since the injury, before that, he was rightly called the best goal keeper in the world imo.

Given looks good because he does a ****load of shot stopping. Same with Friedal. They play in ****e defences and constantly make amazing saves. That's impressive, but it's not that impressive. Both suffer in their general command of the area, which is part of the reason why their defense is so ****.

People love him because he makes saves constantly, but in reality, the best goalkeepers out there, the best, do absolutely nothing, nothing for 70 minutes, make one top class save, then do nothing again. The best goal keepers are part of a defence that don't have shots on them, because they play as a sweeper/organiser. The best goalkeepers play for the top clubs by in large. Given is great for City and was great for Newcastle, but when you are trying to keep a clean sheet in every single game in order to win a championship, he aint up for it. Neither is Friedal. Cech and VDS have done that.

It's also a joke, a joke, that Lehmann isn't in there. The man broke the record for 10 clean sheets in the CL, 10!! Went 853 minutes without concedding a goal.

VDS - English League Record Breaker. 3 Title Wins and a CL
Lehmann - Champions League Record Breaker. Title Winner
Cech - Record Breaker. 3 Title Wins.
Reina - Champions League Winner

And these people have a combined vote of 29.

I'm sorry, but people clearly haven't a clue what they are talking about.

WTF are you talking about Friedel playing in a **** defence?


And the best keepers have less to to do than the rest because the teams they are in have better defences and better overall teams, therefore more possession.

SlickRic

PHB wrote: »

I'm sorry, but people clearly haven't a clue what they are talking about.

smug much?

the margin of victory will be shocking, but he's worth being in the running.

Cech has been sh*t for a long time now.

i agree it's funny Lehmann's not there, the only argument against him is he wasn't around long.

given hasn't been in a title challenging team for him to be able to keep clean sheets for title run ins.

so you can't possibly hold that against him.

Xavi6

PHB wrote: »

Given looks good because he does a ****load of shot stopping. Same with Friedal. They play in ****e defences and constantly make amazing saves. That's impressive, but it's not that impressive. Both suffer in their general command of the area, which is part of the reason why their defense is so ****.

Goals conceded this season -

Manchester United - 18
Liverpool - 21
Arsenal - 21
Aston Villa - 18

Leaking goals they are :rolleyes:

The best goalkeepers play for the top clubs by in large.

So not always then, i.e. there are exceptions, like Given for example?

Given is great for City and was great for Newcastle, but when you are trying to keep a clean sheet in every single game in order to win a championship, he aint up for it. Neither is Friedal. Cech and VDS have done that.

How do you know that? Do you not think he would have kept as many clean sheets as VDS with that defence in front of him last season? I don't see any reason why not, considering he's a great shot stopper and all that.

It's also a joke, a joke, that Lehmann isn't in there. The man broke the record for 10 clean sheets in the CL, 10!! Went 853 minutes without concedding a goal.

Who cares about Champions League records? We're not debating the best goalkeeper in European competition. It's as relevant as Given being great at international level.

Yes Lehmann should be there but not for the reasons you're banging on about.

I'm sorry, but people clearly haven't a clue what they are talking about.

Come down of your high horse tbh.

Mr.Nice Guy

PHB wrote: »

Cech ain't the same since the injury, before that, he was rightly called the best goal keeper in the world imo.

Given looks good because he does a ****load of shot stopping. Same with Friedal. They play in ****e defences and constantly make amazing saves. That's impressive, but it's not that impressive. Both suffer in their general command of the area, which is part of the reason why their defense is so ****.

People love him because he makes saves constantly, but in reality, the best goalkeepers out there, the best, do absolutely nothing, nothing for 70 minutes, make one top class save, then do nothing again. The best goal keepers are part of a defence that don't have shots on them, because they play as a sweeper/organiser. The best goalkeepers play for the top clubs by in large. Given is great for City and was great for Newcastle, but when you are trying to keep a clean sheet in every single game in order to win a championship, he aint up for it. Neither is Friedal. Cech and VDS have done that.

It's also a joke, a joke, that Lehmann isn't in there. The man broke the record for 10 clean sheets in the CL, 10!! Went 853 minutes without concedding a goal.

VDS - English League Record Breaker. 3 Title Wins and a CL
Lehmann - Champions League Record Breaker. Title Winner
Cech - Record Breaker. 3 Title Wins.
Reina - Champions League Winner

And these people have a combined vote of 29.

I'm sorry, but people clearly haven't a clue what they are talking about.

Given doesn't just look good because of shot stopping. Martin Tyler did a great analysis of Premier League keepers last season during VDS's clean sheet record showing that Van Der Sar and Cech were the least busy keepers in the league. The busiest keeper was actually Scott Carson followed by Shay Given. Now if your theory was correct surely Carson would be held in terrific esteem since he made the most saves per match. The reason this isn't the case is because Carson isn't reliable whereas Given is.

Your argument is basically that the great goalkeepers are the ones who have to make one great save a match. What about ones like Given and Fridel who have to make several per match? Why are they worse off because they don't have the luxury of playing behind a top four's defence?

The best goalkeepers are the ones who earn points for their team and help get results. Given does this just as good, and in my opinion better, than any of the keepers listed above. His Irishness is irrelevant to the debate.

SlickRic

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

The best goalkeepers are the ones who earn points for their team and help get results. Given does this just as good, and in my opinion better, than any of the keepers listed above.

i like this point.

it is an extremely useful way of gauging any player's worth, not just goalkeepers.

CHD

PHB is obv stoned

grenache

My vote would be for Nigel Martyn.

(For the record, Niemi left Fulham in 08 and Schwarzer was with Boro since before 2000 or so that should read 00-present)

redzerdrog

i voted for given because he has been around for the full decade and has been very good i do think reina is the best keeper on the list but has only been here for half of the decade that is why i went with given

ziggy

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ziggy

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SlickRic

ziggy wrote: »

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good choice, and well worthy of being in the running imo.

i just think Given is being lambasted for pretty od reasons:

1) the clichéd excuses of 'he's bad at crosses, kicking, organising defences (that's one i'd love to see evidence for); and;

2) his loyalty in staying with Newcastle, thus not making himself available for a 'big' team.

someone said Shilton went down as a great despite the fact he didn't play for a 'marquee' team. excellent call, and should be proof that you don't have to play for on of the big team to be justfiably called one of the great keepers.

Xavi6

ziggy wrote: »

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Can you list a good back four that he has played behind regularly during his career?

It's a bit a stretch to blame a goalkeeper for the poor performances of a defence.

ziggy

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SlickRic

ziggy wrote: »

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the argument is, he can't be held responsible for them being bad defenders.

VDS let in plenty of goals at Fulham; does that mean he can't organise a defence?

Xavi6

ziggy wrote: »

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If VDS, Reina, Cech or whatever big four keeper was in that position I don't think they would have fared any better. The ability of the defence in front of a keeper is important.

The likes of United, Chelsea and Arsenal have top class defenders in their back four. Newcastle didn't and City don't really, which takes me back to my point about naming a top class back four he has played behind consistently. I can name one for each of the others ementioned above quite easily.

Instant Karma

ziggy wrote: »

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By the same token is Boruc to blame for the shambolic displays week in and out of the Celtic defence?

Thought not.

ziggy

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SlickRic

ziggy wrote: »

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well if you're saying it's not his fault, then what are you criticising?

yes, he's played behind sh*te.

i would argue that this is the pattern, not the fact he can't organise a defence.

but honestly, i'm not getting at you. each to their own!

ziggy

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leninbenjamin

I went for Given. Primarily because over the course of the decade I've seen more of him than any other keeper listed there. I don't agree with the Reina, VDS, Lehmann arguments, why simply haven't been around long enough to adequately compare with league institutions like Friedel, Schwarzer and Given.

Anyway...

Given: Best shot stopper in the league. Contrary to some opinions here, his positioning is actually fantastic, you can't make as many double saves as he does if you're not in the right spot. But I agree, his organisational skills aren't fantastic and his kicking is dreadful. I'd argue his kicking is the reason he was never given an opportunity at the big clubs. However, over the past decade I can't remember a single player winning his team as many points as Given did for Newcastle.

Lehmann: Hothead. Best keeper in the world on his day, then the following week he'll go and assault a fan or something. Amazing he managed to keep it together as long as he did with the invincibles. I love him as a player, but he shouldn't be in contention.

VDS: Was fantastic at Fulham, arguably much better there than United. At United his age has beginning to catch up with him though, and he's made a few bad howlers which counts against him imo.

Nieimi: Overrated imo. Put's in some fantastic performances but has long periods of averageness...

Friedel: Quality. It was between Friedel and Given for me, tbh the only reason i went with Given is because I've seen more of him, and Friedel has perhaps begun to show his age at times over the past couple of seasons.

Reina: Great shot stopper, but in many respects has the same weaknesses as Given. Just flaps a bit too much for me, although I know he has worked hard to remove the more 'continental' aspects of his game in recent years.

And I just haven't seen enough of the others tbh to even begin to make a fair call on them. It's a pity Cech has fallen off so much though, I'd say he's had the best single season of all the players listed here, but too much a flash in the pan for a poll like this...

Gillington

For me its Given,he's been awesome for us and the best we've made in the last few seasons.Shame he hasnt had the success he deserves.

Mr Alan

ok, for the people who think its Given, why has the likes of Ferguson or Wenger never gone in for him? just out of curiousity, he has been available at very reasonable money for much of the last decade & both teams have spent a lot of that decade needing to bring in a tp new keeper.