The problems of student binge drinking and the question of tuition fees

Permabear · 04-01-2010 12:32pm #1

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Lockstep · 04-01-2010 4:14pm

Stereotypes are fun

It's a generalisation which is often thrown around. Can't really see why it can be applied to most students (and this from a 1;1 student in third level education). Sounds like run of the mill populism in everything from students to immigrants.

Permabear · 04-01-2010 4:51pm

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OldJay · 04-01-2010 4:58pm

Students get drunk? The horror and shock of it all :rolleyes:

Flamed Diving · 04-01-2010 5:02pm

Let's get rid of free tuition fees, then. They can get drunk while wasting their own money, instead of the taxpayers.

Lockstep · 04-01-2010 5:05pm

Extremely subjective claim there.

I'm not in an IT so can't comment on that anecdotal account. However, I find college a lot easier than school as there's a lot more choice in what I can do. I was able to choose a mixture of history and law and had grades that shot upwards; it's a lot easier to do well in work that you like.

We differentiate between different levels of degrees (level 7, level 8 etc) as well as different grades within the levels (pass, 2.2/2,1/1.1 honours)

A study from 6 years ago?
Nonetheless, the results from that time period aren't that out of kilter with the Irish population as a whole; binge drinking is the norm. http://www.aim-digest.com/gateway/pages/binge/articles/ireland.htm

Permabear · 04-01-2010 5:21pm

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Flamed Diving · 04-01-2010 5:29pm

A study from three years ago?

:rolleyes:

04-01-2010 8:23pm

I'm back in University doing a postgraduate course. I'm not eligible for any grants under any of the current systems. Believe me, I've tried them all. The government will pay me to be unemployed but not to attend full time education. And while there are no fees, there is a rather hefty administrative charge to be looked at. i.e. €1500 euro before any exams can be sat. Never mind the cost of books, living expenses, stationary (copying/printing) etc.

There are quite a lot of people in this country attending third level college who do not have either the money nor the inclination to binge drink. Its kinda annoying being lumped in with those that do. And its worth noting that I have had to pay a rather large amount of tax to the government over 13 years of full time work, and I've seen very little opportunity to directly gain advantage of it.

Nodin · 04-01-2010 8:45pm

...end of the world. Tellin ye now.

Permabear · 04-01-2010 9:04pm

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Nodin · 04-01-2010 9:13pm

....as have students since the dawn of studenting. Yet the world still turns. While I doubt the Irish National Party will ever gain a seat anywhere, they're still more worthy of discussion, character assasination, debate and bickering than students getting twisted.

Flamed Diving · 04-01-2010 9:14pm

Perhaps, but not always at the expense of the state. Are you getting this point yet?

Mr. Incognito · 04-01-2010 10:10pm

At the expense of the state??

They are students- educations drives the economy and the measly amount the government spends on education they reap ten fold when these people are employed when they graduate. Also most students have to WORK to supplement their income further bringing in tax returns.

Immigrants and students are to blame for the economy tanking?

Flamed Diving · 04-01-2010 10:13pm

Yes, those who attend uni and do nothing but get pissed and perform very poorly are wasting taxpayers money. It's all very simple if you read the posts preceding my one, then you are able to form the full context of the discussion in your mind and not make rash posts which completely miss the point.

Eliot Rosewater · 04-01-2010 11:33pm

The point being made is there is a bad culture amongst the majority of students that inhibits being a good student academically. I dont take much issue with the binge drinking; I engage in a bit of that too of a time. Its the not turning up for college thats the worst part of it. First day back today after break and some people didnt even bother turning up. Many similar stories, and many even worse. Fundamentally students arent paying much for their education, so they dont have any respect for it. Theres no excuse for missing over 50% of your lectures, tbh.

And lets not talk about the people who wont be able to go if it werent free. I was talking to one such person. He didnt care because if fees are introduced the grants will simply go up and he will be covered. The poorest will get in free anyway.

Saying that, I dont think Ill be voting for the INP

05-01-2010 12:37am

In my postgrad business course (and I'm going to an IT) I would say there's on average of 80-90% attendance for lectures. I've been to every one of my lectures, and I know the faces quite well. There were a few new faces appearing once the semester one exams came up but not many. Unless you're talking about first years?

Perhaps look at the entrance requirements for college these days? The leaving cert point requirements have dropped quite a bit in the last 10 years... I'm constantly amazed at the low standard of English by students in a postgrad course....

Well, there's no chance of my being able to go to college if the fee's were re-introduced, and I'm assuming being a mature student wouldn't exclude me from them. I already had to get a loan to pay the "admin" fee. And as I've said before not everyone is eligible for grants. Even when I was in my 20's and going to college for the first time, I wasn't eligible since my parents were both retired teachers. (didn't matter they didn't really have the disposable income to support me being retired, but they tried.) Yay.

but hey, as long as the poor are covered everything is rosy... :mad: Well, there's quite a few people who aren't considered poor simply because they come from a good background, and yet haven't got the money to get through college. I'm lucky my parents have allowed me to stay in their home rent free, because my part time job would never cover the costs. As it is, my social life is non-existent, and I'm building up quite a debt while I'm here... At least everyone was so considerate about my inability to buy anyone presents beyond two selection boxes for my nieces. Lovely. :rolleyes:

Permabear · 05-01-2010 12:52am

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sceptre · 05-01-2010 1:14am

It isn't, at least that one night a week and the morning after (and for some rather more). Of course nationally 61% (edit note: I previously typed this as "48" here rather than 61) of all males binge drink once a week and 16% of all females binge drink once a week (Irish national health promotion survey, though a few years old). The big jump with regard to student drinking is obviously amongst the women - 48 to 61 is noticeable, 16 to 44 is the stuff of newspaper headlines.

Can someone demonstrate that it wasn't so before "free" fees were introduced?

And yes, if this turns out to be the major topic of this thread, it will be spun off into its own.

Flamed Diving · 05-01-2010 1:19am

That's not really the point being made (unless I missed it), I merely said that if people want to behave in such a fashion, they can do so without wasting taxpayers money. I don't think that free tuition fees causes such behaviour, although it would definitely lead to less respect shown towards the course, and more wasters on it.

sceptre · 05-01-2010 1:34am

I don't see the effect then. While I'd happily have a system where those who can afford to pay be required to pay (or another contributory system), the case is being made that students are wasting taxpayer money (presumably significantly) as a result of their binge drinking. It's not that they have too much money as a result of not being charged fees then (that's option 1)? if it's not (option 2), do we know for a fact that lecture attendances are materially affected as a result of drinking patterns? And then tie that into the availability of "free" fees as obviously that's a necessary ingredient because of the policy included in this thread from which the discussion comes. Anecdote isn't worth anything I'm afraid (not that you've necessarily used it as a central support but looking back up, some have(I didn't take note of who did)) - it never tends to be here. Feel free to assume I'm attempting to keep up here - it's one or the other or both, I'm unsure what case is being advanced as it isn't that clear.

Soldie · 05-01-2010 1:39am

This point is made often and is generally well-received, but tends to fly under the radar of criticism. As it stands, "free" education is costing the tax payer billions of Euro per year -- billions of Euro that we don't have. You cannot simply make a vague assumption that the benefit outstrips the cost. If you make this claim, the onus is on you to subtantiate it. Of course, I'm not expecting you to prove that the benefits are worth "ten" times that of the cost but, rather, any kind of evidence to show that the economy is (or was :pac:) better off than it would otherwise have been without "free" eduation.

05-01-2010 1:49am

I don't suppose it could have been the booming economy.. with the combination of work for students, and parents having more cash, giving students more disposable income?

I wonder how up to date these statistics really are.. Does anyone know for a fact that these %'s are still accurate at this stage of the economic downturn?

Flamed Diving · 05-01-2010 3:48am

It all started with:

To which Justind replied:

To which I replied:

This is all I am saying. If people are abusing themselves during their time at college, then we should question why the taxpayer is footing the bill for this mess. The disparity between the general and student populace is startling and there is clearly a problem. I must repeat, this is all that I am saying.

Lockstep · 05-01-2010 12:46pm

Hardly anecdotal; would you disagree that it's easier to motivate yourself to do well in a subject that you like?

For all the good it will do them. When a general degree is needed, a level 8 Hons seems to be the going rate. I don't really see it as a problem as I can see why there should be a gradient between level 8 and the leaving cert.
Dislike the slippery slope argument by the way.

But you didn't say mention the 2007 report. Only the 2004 one.
Ireland is moving fairly swiftly so information can become outdated fairly quickly; can I use data on society in 1994?

Right, so the problem isn't with students. It's with 18-24 year olds in general.

At any rate, that information is out of sync with the Alcohol in Moderation link I already posted; which said that 48% of all men binge drink at least once a week.

Hurt everyone because some people are irresponsible.
Brilliant.

05-01-2010 12:59pm

Why not judge college entrants based on their PRSI contributions? If they haven't made any significant contributions they face a fee of some sort, if they have then the fees are waived. Naturally, I'm being selfish here. I have worked. I have paid taxes for over a decade. And now that I need some of the benefits, I'm being screwed with.

Flamed Diving · 05-01-2010 1:09pm

What about those who just finished the LC? Your system seems inherently biased towards your specific case.

05-01-2010 1:17pm

Sure it is. I said I was being selfish.

But lets face it, when people just finish their LC they're likely to be still under the support of their parents to some degree, and getting a part-time job to pay the extra expenses is doable. Mature students on the other hand have a host of expenses in addition to those of college.

Permabear · 05-01-2010 1:18pm

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Lockstep · 05-01-2010 1:25pm

YEs but there are different types of degrees. I really don't see the problem here; different types of degrees are given out at different grades. Employers are free to make their own decisions based upon this.

Grand but the student drinking culture is fairly similar to the general drinking culture.

It is indeed. I'm just wondering where you draw the line with acceptabley dated sources.

True.

Is it? I've already shown how binge drinking levels are fairly similar between students and Irish men as a whole. I fail to see how the above two points have been proven.

True on the island as a whole.

Eliot Rosewater · 05-01-2010 1:28pm

My theory is this. Students don't have respect for their education because they're not paying for it. Even I have this attitude of a time. I wake up at half 7, Im tired, look Ill take the morning off. If I was paying for it I would have a different mindframe. My money (or my parents money or the banks money) is being used to pay for my Uni so I better make the most of it. Would ye disagree with this train of thought?

The binge drinking culture merely accentuates this attitude. Friday morning lectures are a joke. My one usually hangs around 35% - 50% attendance. I know this because on the day to hand up our assignment the theater was full; usually its less than half full.

So some lame statistics to back it up. This morning we started a new module, which is taken with a variety of different course such as Chemistry and Physics. The lecture wanted to know who was who and asked the latter to raise there hands. His "quick count" gave a result of 15; according to him there should have been 30. No matter what kind of margin of error you throw on that its still silly.

My solution is to get students to pay fees. It will make them appreciate their education. They will presumably try to study more, lest they waste 7 grand by failing a year. We will have less people doing crap "for the sake of it" courses such as Celtic Civilization. And my opinion is that were there fees there would be a huge demand for student loans, and as such a supply of loans from the bank.

The problems of student binge drinking and the question of tuition fees

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