The problems of student binge drinking and the question of tuition fees

Flamed Diving

kickoutthejams wrote: »

True on the island as a whole.

If so, we still have one group binge drinking at no one else's expense (except HSE, maybe, but most of these people are taxpayers, after all), and another group who are binge drinking while costing at least €4,000pa, per student, to the taxpayer.

Unjustifiable.

sceptre

Oh, I hate repeating myself but it's so easy with the copy and pasta.

sceptre wrote: »

It isn't, at least that one night a week and the morning after (and for some rather more). Of course nationally 61% (edit note: I previously typed this as "48" here rather than 61) of all males binge drink once a week and 16% of all females binge drink once a week (Irish national health promotion survey, though a few years old). The big jump with regard to student drinking is obviously amongst the women - 48 to 61 is noticeable, 16 to 44 is the stuff of newspaper headlines.

Can someone demonstrate that it wasn't so before "free" fees were introduced?

And yes, if this turns out to be the major topic of this thread, it will be spun off into its own.

sceptre wrote: »

I don't see the effect then. While I'd happily have a system where those who can afford to pay be required to pay (or another contributory system), the case is being made that students are wasting taxpayer money (presumably significantly) as a result of their binge drinking. It's not that they have too much money as a result of not being charged fees then (that's option 1)? if it's not (option 2), do we know for a fact that lecture attendances are materially affected as a result of drinking patterns? And then tie that into the availability of "free" fees as obviously that's a necessary ingredient because of the policy included in this thread from which the discussion comes. Anecdote isn't worth anything I'm afraid (not that you've necessarily used it as a central support but looking back up, some have(I didn't take note of who did)) - it never tends to be here. Feel free to assume I'm attempting to keep up here - it's one or the other or both, I'm unsure what case is being advanced as it isn't that clear.

Anytime someone wants to pick one of the above options or give some useful evidence about the one they pick and perhaps offer a nod to the earlier progressive correlation request, feel free to jump up and run with the ball and turn this into a Politics subdiscussion, not an AH one.

Flamed Diving

Neither relate to my point, unless one has an affinity for attaching legs to things.

Eliot Rosewater

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

My theory is this. Students don't have respect for their education because they're not paying for it. Even I have this attitude of a time. I wake up at half 7, Im tired, look Ill take the morning off. If I was paying for it I would have a different mindframe. My money (or my parents money or the banks money) is being used to pay for my Uni so I better make the most of it. Would ye disagree with this train of thought?

The binge drinking culture merely accentuates this attitude. Friday morning lectures are a joke. My one usually hangs around 35% - 50% attendance. I know this because on the day to hand up our assignment the theater was full; usually its less than half full.

So some lame statistics to back it up. This morning we started a new module, which is taken with a variety of different course such as Chemistry and Physics. The lecture wanted to know who was who and asked the latter to raise there hands. His "quick count" gave a result of 15; according to him there should have been 30. No matter what kind of margin of error you throw on that its still silly.


My solution is to get students to pay fees. It will make them appreciate their education. They will presumably try to study more, lest they waste 7 grand by failing a year. We will have less people doing crap "for the sake of it" courses such as Celtic Civilization. And my opinion is that were there fees there would be a huge demand for student loans, and as such a supply of loans from the bank.

My solution is to raise the standard of the courses involved. I'm doing an Honors Degree course in Business. I've worked in Business for a rather long time (including running a startup business), and I'd be hardpressed to find more than one or two things we've learned in the last semester which would be used in the business world. RTC's (IT's) used to be about practical knowledge. And I can't see it being there any more. Sure.. some of the subjects are interesting, but the lecturers themselves will admit to their lack of use in the "real" world.

The point is that if the coursework was designed to be interesting, and sought involvement from students, then its likely there would be more attendance. In my course, there is high attendance, however extremely low involvement. Most of them have said that they will cram a week before the exams, and still do ok. And I can't say that they're wrong.

There's no real need to attend lectures, since all the lecture notes are available on server. There's no real need to study during the semester since most of them have years of experience in cramming for exams. And there's no need to attend their lectures, because I've seen two role calls being done during the whole semester. Its different for me. I have to study every day because my memory isn't quite as good as theirs, and I'm working hard to learn crap that goes against my experience in the real world.

Just in regards to the different qualifications (level 7/8 etc). When i graduated from this course in 2000 I graduated with a 3 year diploma.. When I came back to study I found this had been upgraded to a degree. But from an international point of view, 3 years does not make a degree. 4 years is the standard for a degree. Fancy coding, and terms is not going to change that.

sceptre

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Neither relate to my point, unless one has an affinity for attaching legs to things.

It's better for me as a poster and for everyone else if you only reply if you want to turn the subdiscussion into something useful with actual pseudo-evidence and actually do that - there's no need to reply if you'd like it to remain as it is:) I'm not the Little Red Hen, thankfully.

Flamed Diving

How about I put this issue as an analogy that everyone on this forum can relate to...

The Indo - Today:

It was discovered today that the government spent over €4,000,000 sending 1,000 bankers on a course in how to deal with NAMA and the new regulations that Patrick Honohan was devising. Further to this, it was reported that many of the attendees spent much of their time binge drinking, often more than once per week, and consequently failed to attend a significant proportion of their classes, and achieved only a passing grade, or slightly better. The Bankers Association of Ireland defended their position by stating that most of the attendees passed the course, and that their alleged behaviour while attending was irrelevant. The government stated that stories of alcohol abuse and low attendance were only anecdotal, and therefore should be ignored, finishing by saying that the state-funded course would continue indefinitely.

Deyy dukkk urrr jerbs!!!!

Nodin

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

....a recent term, now thrown about as if it explains all the problems of the world....Hopefully it will become as anachronistic in usage as references to plucking at beards in times to come.

Mr. Incognito

This point is made often and is generally well-received, but tends to fly under the radar of criticism. As it stands, "free" education is costing the tax payer billions of Euro per year -- billions of Euro that we don't have. You cannot simply make a vague assumption that the benefit outstrips the cost. If you make this claim, the onus is on you to subtantiate it. Of course, I'm not expecting you to prove that the benefits are worth "ten" times that of the cost but, rather, any kind of evidence to show that the economy is (or was ) better off than it would otherwise have been without "free" eduation.

Interesting read:

http://www.esri.ie/pdf/Stability%20and%20Growth%20Pact_Benign%20or%20Malign%20Neglect.pdf

In addition they predicted the crash in the US economy.

Flamed Diving

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Interesting read:

http://www.esri.ie/pdf/Stability%20and%20Growth%20Pact_Benign%20or%20Malign%20Neglect.pdf

In addition they predicted the crash in the US economy.

Meh, that isn't really a prediction. It's like saying Man Utd will win because of a Rooney winner, when in fact they turned out to win because the other team failed to show up. You would be right, but not really.

In addition, that is an article written by Paul Devereux for the ESRI, but not representing them:

The opinions expressed in the Review
by our contributors do not necessarily
coincide with those of the banks.

Permabear

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Nodin

Donegalfella wrote:

Do you ever have anything to contribute other than snark?

Theres a function which shows the last few hundred posts. I'd suggest using that and reporting to moderation after, should you feel the need.

Donegalfella wrote:

Binge drinking is a huge problem in Ireland, with 48 percent of men engaging in it once a week (the equivalent figure for France is 9 percent). The implications for antisocial behaviour, health and wellbeing, road safety, and so on, are enormous—but all you can do is scoff.

Indeed, and I like the way mocking this rather silly whinging about student drinking is automatically linked to minimising matters related to road safety. While I appreciate why that might be foremost in your mind, your redirected anger at me is misplaced.

Lockstep

Flamed Diving wrote: »

If so, we still have one group binge drinking at no one else's expense (except HSE, maybe, but most of these people are taxpayers, after all), and another group who are binge drinking while costing at least €4,000pa, per student, to the taxpayer.

Unjustifiable.

I fail to see how they are binge drinking at everyone's expense or that reintroducing fees will make students appreciate students more. Students who can arse around all day without needing a job must be having some form of outside funding. PResumably they'd be acting the same way as either way they're parents would be footing the bill.

Forgive the anecdotal evidence but I see a similar culture in US undergrad students over here on they're year abroad. Getting absolutely sh!tfaced and so on. And these are paying incredible fees (or at least they're parents are)

Permabear

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Lockstep

donegalfella wrote: »

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Can you link me to one of these cross sectional studies? I usually find them a bit sceptical; "It would never have happened in Catholic Ireland" etc.

aurelius79

donegalfella wrote: »

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Firstly, I'm not too sure how a thread about the Irish National Party ended up as a debate about binge drinking in Ireland, specifically student binge drinking. Anyway, on to my main point.

The drinking culture in the U.S. is nothing like it is here. To even try to compare the two is ridiculous. Yes, students in the U.S. drink a lot at frat parties and sometimes bars but it is nowhere near what it's like here. Most Americans are taught from a young age that if you do decide to drink, do it responsibly. Drunk driving in the U.S. is about as socially acceptable as child abuse. Drinking 10-15 pints in a night out is somehow considered an accomplishment here. In the States you'd be "that a**hole who got plastered and ruined the party".

Instead of everyone pointing blame and moaning about how your taxes are being wasted, why not try to discuss how Ireland as a whole can break out of this toxic cycle of alcohol abuse because let's face it, the drinking culture in this country has destroyed countless lives and won't stop until we do something about it. Let's not pretend it's just the students causing all the social problems associated with alcohol abuse.

Permabear

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sceptre

Mod hat on:

Thread split from the Irish National Party thread. While the thread title is unwieldy, it's comprehensive enough to cover the topic.

sceptre

User hat on:

sceptre wrote:

Oh, I hate repeating myself but it's so easy with the copy and pasta.

sceptre wrote: »

It isn't, at least that one night a week and the morning after (and for some rather more). Of course nationally 61% (edit note: I previously typed this as "48" here rather than 61) of all males binge drink once a week and 16% of all females binge drink once a week (Irish national health promotion survey, though a few years old). The big jump with regard to student drinking is obviously amongst the women - 48 to 61 is noticeable, 16 to 44 is the stuff of newspaper headlines.

Can someone demonstrate that it wasn't so before "free" fees were introduced?

And yes, if this turns out to be the major topic of this thread, it will be spun off into its own.

sceptre wrote: »

I don't see the effect then. While I'd happily have a system where those who can afford to pay be required to pay (or another contributory system), the case is being made that students are wasting taxpayer money (presumably significantly) as a result of their binge drinking. It's not that they have too much money as a result of not being charged fees then (that's option 1)? if it's not (option 2), do we know for a fact that lecture attendances are materially affected as a result of drinking patterns? And then tie that into the availability of "free" fees as obviously that's a necessary ingredient because of the policy included in this thread from which the discussion comes. Anecdote isn't worth anything I'm afraid (not that you've necessarily used it as a central support but looking back up, some have(I didn't take note of who did)) - it never tends to be here. Feel free to assume I'm attempting to keep up here - it's one or the other or both, I'm unsure what case is being advanced as it isn't that clear.

Anytime someone wants to pick one of the above options or give some useful evidence about the one they pick and perhaps offer a nod to the earlier progressive correlation request, feel free to jump up and run with the ball and turn this into a Politics subdiscussion, not an AH one.

Still waiting. Third time requesting as I'm the patient type. Ironically some of those who have criticised anecdotal evidence have proceeded to base half their arguments on their own anecdotal evidence without making the basic connection I requested above in post number 1. As I don't particularly deal in anecdotal mumbo jumbo as a forum of evidence, I'll just leave the hitherto unaddressed questions above there hanging and unaddressed (but the nice bits bolded) as a monument to never letting a lack of evidence get in the way of a good continued rant. I hope for better.

AARRRGH

I did a degree 10 years ago (95 - 99), and a masters 2 years ago (07 - 08).

From my own experience college has dumbed down a lot in just under a decade. And they will now do anything to pass you.

Binge drinking is just as bad as it used to be though. Maybe it's a little worse now with it being uncommon for women to drink half-pints.

Saying all this, I agree with free fees. It makes everyone believe they can go to college, which I think is important for society.

P. Breathnach

When I was an undergraduate (before many people posting here were born) I was told by people of my parents' generation that standards had fallen since their day. It's one of the constant "truths" that university standards fall just after one gets one's degree. [And students always have worse English than used to be the norm -- mind you, encouraged by some of those who post here, I am tempted to agree with that contention.]

What constitutes binge drinking? DF represents it as getting "paralytically plastered". That's not a very precise measure. How about:
- "The official definition of binge-drinking is consuming five consecutive drinks in one sitting" [http://www.breakingnews.ie/archives/2009/0219/business/pressure-to-be-perfect-in-work-leading-to-binge-drinking-399619.html] or
- "Health and addiction professionals use 'binge' to mean five units, which equals 2.5 pints of beer or three glasses of wine." [http://www.irishhealth.com/article.html?id=11798]?
If Herself and I had aperitifs, and then shared a bottle of wine over dinner, we would be binge-drinking. And there I was, thinking I was abstemious.

aurelius79

donegalfella wrote: »

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You've managed to dissect my entire post almost line for line and still missed the point I was trying to make. The problem is not that students are binge drinking, the problem is the general drinking culture in this country. Students drink here, but no more than young working people. Actually, I'd say young people that go to work instead of college probably drink even more than students. After all, this whole conversation seems to be based of personal opinion.

I'm not going to argue with you about the culture in the U.S. because I grew up there and spent half my life there. Spending a few years to study for a masters and PhD doesn't automatically make you a more credible commentator on aspects of American culture.

Nobody has said that. But you can't deny that many people who go on to develop serious drinking problems get their start in college.

That's like me saying you can't deny that many people who go on to develop scientific theories got their start in college. How many people who have gone on to do anything got their start in college?

I'd say many young people who go on to develop serious drinking problems get their start at home or during the leaving cert. There's a reason behind this country's high suicide rates among young people, but suicide is a "mortal sin" so we won't discuss it here.

ninty9er

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Link to the IT and course please?

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Perhaps, but not always at the expense of the state. Are you getting this point yet?

I agree. Most of the people I find getting paraletic more than twice a week come from lower income homes meaning they are always going to be state funded regardless fo system and use their part time job to fund drinking to excess.

Deleted User wrote: »

Perhaps look at the entrance requirements for college these days? The leaving cert point requirements have dropped quite a bit in the last 10 years... I'm constantly amazed at the low standard of English by students in a postgrad course....



Well, there's no chance of my being able to go to college if the fee's were re-introduced, and I'm assuming being a mature student wouldn't exclude me from them. I already had to get a loan to pay the "admin" fee. And as I've said before not everyone is eligible for grants. Even when I was in my 20's and going to college for the first time, I wasn't eligible since my parents were both retired teachers. (didn't matter they didn't really have the disposable income to support me being retired, but they tried.) Yay.

The irony

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Binge drinking ang getting paralytically plastered are two linked, but very different things.

Deleted User wrote: »

Mature students on the other hand have a host of expenses in addition to those of college.

Translation = Mature students don't do enough research and then come looking for support that isn't there citing that they'll "have to drop out" as if by way of threat:rolleyes:

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

(a) So do may others, incuding the Swedish for example. Do you suggest the state runs all off-licences and closes them at 3pm?
(b) Particularly, yes, but it is prevalent across all of society.
(c) Stats please?
(d) It fluctuates

Nodin wrote: »

Indeed, and I like the way mocking this rather silly whinging about student drinking is automatically linked to minimising matters related to road safety.

Realistically, students put themselves at risk by walking home drunk, they do not, by the cluture of young people, drink and drive. There are of course exceptions, of which some of you probably know a few, as do I, but it is much less prevalent among students, particularly after 1or 2 drinks, as oppose dto the rest of the population where amount consmed bears no correlation to the decision to drive.

aurelius79 wrote: »

Drunk driving in the U.S. is about as socially acceptable as child abuse.

I think you'll find drink driving is far less socially acceptable here than there.

Now -

I deal with student financial problems day in day out.
They are mainly related to:
-Not being able to afford to eat
-Not being able to afford the bus home
-Not being able to get a job
-Being under threat of eviction due to lack of money for rent

More recently students are skipping classes to pay their way through college as they can't really be choosy with part-time jobs like I was when I had one.

In terms of piddly awards, it is institution dependent.
For example UL is bottom of the Irish universities league table. A part of that is due to the fact that UL awards significantly less 1.1 and 2.1 degrees. It's not that the students are less capable, it's that the grading is robust. League tables don't account for this however and pressure will grow on the senior management to lower grading bands and award more higher 2 and 1.1 degrees. I didn't get one, but I know my university experience ahs developed me beyond anything a piece of paper can show, and while a 2.1 would have been nice, I still wouldn't do anythign differently if I had to do my time over.
Maybe spending time administering clubs and societies instead of studying or going to class was a waste in some people's view, but I still had to do the reading etc for assignments, and to be honest, attendaance at some lectures leaves you with more questions than answers at the end of an hour.

If you want to point fingers in relation to dumbing down, it's not the students you need to point at.

AlekSmart

Instead of everyone pointing blame and moaning about how your taxes are being wasted, why not try to discuss how Ireland as a whole can break out of this toxic cycle of alcohol abuse because let's face it, the drinking culture in this country has destroyed countless lives and won't stop until we do something about it.

One starting point in this process would be a constitutional amendment to disbar any member of the Licenced Vintners trade from holding Public Office.

The correlation between rural Publicans and Téacthai Dála is somewhat TOO close for comfort in this country.

However as somebody who has VERY close interaction with 2nd and 3rd Level students during the study AND relaxation phase of their college attendance I have absolutely no doubt but we have a major,ongoing and developing problem with our native inability to handle the principle of responsibility.

It is relatively easy to draw a direct parallell between the sort of Hi-Jinks which I and my "normal" customers are expected to smile benignly upon and the emerging evidence of wilful and criminal mismanagement in our banking and finance industry over the past two decades.

Our wonderkindren of the 80`s and 90`s simply progressed the lifestyle and attitudes which they had learned during College Years on into commercial life with all too inevitable results.

ninty9er

ninty9er wrote: »

The irony

Oh joy! A critic of my English on a bulletin board. In a Postgraduate course, students using very basic leaving certificate English, when professional English is required. But I guess I didn't spell it out for you.. And I don't believe I ever suggested that my English was perfect... Is yours?

Translation = Mature students don't do enough research and then come looking for support that isn't there citing that they'll "have to drop out" as if by way of threat:rolleyes

:

Actually I did plenty of research on the subject seeking advice from both the welfare office and the college itself. I guess I was naive enough at 32 to assume that they would judge me on my income and my financial status rather than that of my parents. Go figure. :rolleyes:

Permabear

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SLUSK

Abolish all subsidies for so called higher education, if the student and the student family has to bear all the cost of the students education you could probably expect much less binge drinking.

Permabear

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Permabear

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aurelius79

SLUSK wrote: »

Abolish all subsidies for so called higher education, if the student and the student family has to bear all the cost of the students education you could probably expect much less binge drinking.

Yes, because lower income families shouldn't be allowed to attend third level education. Believe it or not, there are people in disadvantaged areas that would love to go to university. I'm getting so sick of the attitude in this country that low income families just don't matter.

Higher education should remain available to anyone who wishes to attend. The progress of grant recipients should be monitored. Anyone who fails to maintain a minimum level of success should be dropped from the grant scheme. Cash should not be given to students receiving state aid. A program of rent allowance/dorms, food/clothing vouchers or credits, meals provided by the schools, etc. should be introduced. All books and supplies should be provided by the state. Any cash given out will be for emergency expenses only.

As far as drinking goes, we need to raise the legal age to 21 as they have done in the U.S. This should be strictly enforced. Any shopkeeper caught selling to minors will should have their license temporarily revoked. Tax on alcohol should be increased substantially to put it out of reach of young adults. The overall problem with drinking in this country needs to be addressed immediately.

Gurgle

Binge drinking is defined as 5 units of alcohol for a male, 4 for a female.
Thats 2.5 and 2 pints respectively.

'At least once per week'

Wow, shocking behaviour.