MLIS (Masters in Library and Information Studies)

the west wing

1968 wrote: »

Out of interest, are all of these unpaid?

The month in the public library and the three weeks in the academic library are not paid, however as it is work experience I am hoping to continue to claim dole during this period.

The first month in the private library will not be paid either, however after that I will be paid minimum wage so I am happy with that. It's unfortunate that both the public and private library are in Dublin so I'll have to pay rent, which will be expensive but I feel its worth it so that I can get a feel for the work and see if it really is for me.

the west wing

So I'm filling out the application form for the MLIS at the moment and I've come across a question that asks 'what is my proposed area of Thesis research?' I have no idea?? I thought I wouldn't have to think about this until I was in the course and could talk to supervisors and see what interests me?? What should I put down? What have others put down for this question?? All replies will be greatly appreciated!

Walls

Well, there really is no wrong answer here; the idea is to see if they have staff that are in your area of interest (or so I was told). Put down what seems logical and then submit.

the west wing

Walls wrote: »

Well, there really is no wrong answer here; the idea is to see if they have staff that are in your area of interest (or so I was told). Put down what seems logical and then submit.

Thanks for the answer. I'm still not sure what I'll put down. I think I'll try and google research topics and try and get some inspiration from that!

the west wing

So I've started my work experience. Everything is going really well and I love the work. Does anyone know when I can expect to hear back from UCD about whether I've been accepted to do the MA or not?? I applied at the start of December.

rottenhat

The next round of offers will be made by March 13th, according to Claire Nolan.

the west wing

Thanks for sharing that, looks like I'll be nervously waiting a little longer!

the west wing

Just got the email today to say I've been accepted! Woohoo! Bring on the 12th Sept.

rottenhat

Me too, see you then.

cazzywazzy

hey guys

can you tell me where ye been getting work experience? i'm finding it tough so if ye have any advice or ideas id be grateful. I'm in dublin btw. thanks

the west wing

cazzywazzy wrote: »

hey guys

can you tell me where ye been getting work experience? i'm finding it tough so if ye have any advice or ideas id be grateful. I'm in dublin btw. thanks

Hey!
I'm currently working in a private religious library in Dublin. I'm not getting paid but at least I've got the experience. I found any government or public library will not give experience because they are not taking on staff. My advice is to research private libraries around Dublin and see if anyone is looking for an assistant. The University of Limerick give 3 weeks work experience in July if that is of any use to you? I have my name down for it so I'm hoping I get it.

rottenhat

I think it's worth applying even if you don't have any work experience...it's pretty obvious from other responses from previous years in this thread that there will be other candidates in the same boat.

Chinafoot

reddan wrote: »

A belated belated apologies about any offence caused with that post. To be honest I was just venting after about a year and a half of having absolutely no joy getting work experience with any library organisations despite willing to wave any legal right you care to name just to be in the premises.

Of course I've no idea what operational problems public libraries are experiencing at the moment but at the same time the unwillingness-probably structural I know- or inability to take in people for work experience means we can only hazard a guess, in my case an inaccurate one.

To anyone who is planning to go for this course and is having difficulty getting the minimum experience....please be aware that you absolutely must have insurance. No public library will touch you without it and telling them you will waive your rights as the above poster tried to do will, rightly, get you nowhere.

It is not a case of the library being difficult or not wanting to bother with work experience people, its about the legality of you being there and making sure that you are covered should anything happen. Libraries are facing very difficult times at the moment and we don't need ignorant, uninformed posts like the above as they certainly don't help matters.

Also, to anyone planning to do this course and head to the UK for work, I would suggest a little research on the topic...

parker kent

In a mildly related post to Chinafoot's post, I think SILS need to dramatically rethink their admissions process. There is simply no need for the amount of people graduating each year and it makes the already difficult task of getting a library job even more difficult.

Handsome Bob

It ain't just their admission process they need to sort out. The other MA needs a complete overhaul. But yeah I agree, they should reduce the number of places on the MLIS course, the people I know from last year have either emigrated or have continued on in education.

parker kent

Yeah I think it needs a bit of a change all round. The MAs were like party crashers in our year, I felt sorry for them with the MLIS and Grad Dip focus. It is just annoying because it has so many interesting parts and could be better with just the right tweaks.

Chinafoot

In fairness, they make money on the number they have in the course. I don't think the school really gives a rats ass that there are too many graduates for so few jobs. Sure look at those applying for teaching, same thing.


While it might be in your interest for ucd to reduce the numbers, its certainly not in theirs.

parker kent

I understand the financial aspect. My point is that by having so many people unemployed and with negative things to say about it, it is not inconceivable that other people would actually stop applying for the course. There are other courses in Irish universities that have seen applicants dwindle for similar reasons.

Lowering the numbers in the course would also improve it all around. All I want is the course to return to what it was a few years ago. They used to say that for every 1 person that was accepted, 3 people had applied. I'm not sure that is the case any more. The class is getting too big in teaching terms and as I say such numbers are not sustainable every year. There is no need for 60+ librarians/information officers every year. Teaching is different as this is an unusual period for teachers. In most periods, teachers have infinitely more employment opportunities than librarians.

Also on a wider note, a masters loses its status if it becomes easy to get one. In the pursuit of money, UCD are lowering the bar to enter postgraduate courses. I'm not sure that is a wise move.

eclectichoney

But they are also not going to be turning down applicants now that they have competition from DBS! They are a business at the end of the day and if people are offering them over €5000 a year, are they really going to turn it down? As long as the demand is there, they will continue to supply the product and I can't blame them in the slightest - especially as Universities are so starved of funding these days as well. But yes, it is frustrating for those out there looking for a job and the situation in that respect is only getting worse and worse every year This is not really caused by SILS though - I mean people should consider this aspect before applying for the course really: it is just the reality of the situation. Don't do the course if you can't handle the idea of pretty much minimal employment opportunities in the medium term. It's an unfortunate situation but a function of our times sadly.

parker kent

I think the onus should be on the Library Council to ensure that there is only one accredited course and that it has a strict admissions procedure.

I could write about 5000 words on my overall thoughts on admissions to the MLIS and postgraduate courses in general. The idea of reducing them to a product sold to undergrads to raise money is just wrong in my view. I understand the funding issues and I can see the logic behind what they are doing. All Irish universities are starved of funding and this is a great way to get it. It is another reason why I'm very much in favour of fees.

I know I look like an incredible hypocrite (did a degree with free fees, got a grant, already have the MLIS, just want less competition etc), but I genuinely think postgraduate education needs to be sorted out. I think there should be strict criteria for entry to courses such as needing a 2.1 minimum. I also want libraries to have staff suited to working in libraries.

Courses like the MLIS should also need at least an interview and some other form of pre-admissions screening. I don't think the current system ensures that the right people get a chance to work in libraries. I was very surprised before, during and after the course to hear peoples' attitudes towards libraries. I often heard people question if they were ever actually going to work in libraries. I know any course is open to such issues (no course will ever get 100% of students moving on to careers in the area), but there are things that can be changed. I'd like to change the admissions procedure and certain things within the course itself.

Basically I want to become the Augustus or Diocletian of Irish 3rd level and postgraduate education and change the whole system :pac:

eclectichoney

parker kent wrote: »

I think the onus should be on the Library Council to ensure that there is only one accredited course and that it has a strict admissions procedure.

Why the Library Council? If anything it should be the LAI imo.

I could write about 5000 words on my overall thoughts on admissions to the MLIS and postgraduate courses in general. The idea of reducing them to a product sold to undergrads to raise money is just wrong in my view. I understand the funding issues and I can see the logic behind what they are doing. All Irish universities are starved of funding and this is a great way to get it. It is another reason why I'm very much in favour of fees


I know I look like an incredible hypocrite (did a degree with free fees, got a grant, already have the MLIS, just want less competition etc), but I genuinely think postgraduate education needs to be sorted out. I think there should be strict criteria for entry to courses such as needing a 2.1 minimum. I also want libraries to have staff suited to working in libraries.

Courses like the MLIS should also need at least an interview and some other form of pre-admissions screening. I don't think the current system ensures that the right people get a chance to work in libraries. I was very surprised before, during and after the course to hear peoples' attitudes towards libraries. I often heard people question if they were ever actually going to work in libraries. I know any course is open to such issues (no course will ever get 100% of students moving on to careers in the area), but there are things that can be changed. I'd like to change the admissions procedure and certain things within the course itself.

Research is very much about commercialisation these days and it is essentially a business - Universities have to justify everything now in terms of KPIs, grants, funding etc. I actually thought a 2.1 was a requirement of the MLIS programme, so forgive me on that front, and I would agree with you that all Masters programmes should have such a requirement really (As I said, I thought it was the case anyway, so was basing my view on that). I completely agree from a personal perspective it would be much better if it was a smaller group etc. from a teaching POV as well as with respect to the employment issue, but as Chinefoot pointed out, at the end of the day there is (unfortunately) a bottom line to consider as well - that is just the reality of the situation even if it is not desirable from an individual student's point of view.

By the way, you have not mentioned the graduates from the DBS programme at all who will be coming on stream into the employment market as well - this is something that UCD have no control over either, so even if SILS did limit their intake, it would do absolutely nothing to reduce the number of DBS graduates, in fact, refused applicants would probably just do the DBS course instead I imagine, ultimately resulting in a zero sum game and no difference at all really.

parker kent

eclectichoney wrote: »

Why the Library Council? If anything it should be the LAI imo.

I would see both of them playing a role in it, I just omitted the LAI through absent mindedness. It is in both of their interests to get the best employees, and the LAI are of course the body that give official recognition to the course. When I made that point about giving official recognition to one course, I was stating that I think there should only be one course. So I was basically saying the DBS course is not necessary. So that is why I didn't mention them again. I don't see the need for two courses, not just now but at any time really.

eclectichoney wrote: »

Research is very much about commercialisation these days and it is essentially a business - Universities have to justify everything now in terms of KPIs, grants, funding etc. I actually thought a 2.1 was a requirement of the MLIS programme, so forgive me on that front, and I would agree with you that all Masters programmes should have such a requirement really (As I said, I thought it was the case anyway, so was basing my view on that). I completely agree from a personal perspective it would be much better if it was a smaller group etc. from a teaching POV as well as with respect to the employment issue, but as Chinefoot pointed out, at the end of the day there is (unfortunately) a bottom line to consider as well - that is just the reality of the situation even if it is not desirable from an individual student's point of view.

A 2.1 is not a requirement for many masters programmes in UCD. Which is extremely disappointing in my opinion. I would allow special dispensation to employers sponsoring long-term library assistants, but otherwise I think a 2.1 should be required. Now I do not know if SILS have abandoned the 2.1 requirement, but I know it is the case in other courses in UCD. So I would not be surprised if it were the case for the MLIS.

Whilst I think the department could make changes to the course and the admissions policy, I have stated throughout that I understand the financial reasons. My ire is really saved for the overall funding of education as it is the real reason for the "pile 'em high" style admissions procedures.

I'll always have an idealistic view that Universities are not about the bottom line and that when we worry about the bottom line in education, it is a slippery slope. There are already modules being discontinued for funding reasons. How long before certain academic courses are abandoned in favour of bottom-line friendly modules? How long before arts and humanities are even further side-lined? It is similar thinking that is the root of cuts in library funding in the UK. The idea that "it isn't very important as it doesn't make any money". Which is not really true as successful societies are nearly always societies that invest in education as it spawns creativity and innovation(ditto successful companies and investing in HR/training their employees.

I know I'm getting wildly off topic, but I don't think I can fully convey all I think about why SILS should return to smaller class sizes and the ways I think the course can be improved in short posts!

eclectichoney

parker kent wrote: »

I would see both of them playing a role in it, I just omitted the LAI through absent mindedness. It is in both of their interests to get the best employees, and the LAI are of course the body that give official recognition to the course. When I made that point about giving official recognition to one course, I was stating that I think there should only be one course. So I was basically saying the DBS course is not necessary. So that is why I didn't mention them again. I don't see the need for two courses, not just now but at any time really.

But it's a free market and would you not surely agree that competition from DBS is a good thing? Without such competition SILS would have a monopoly and possibly no real incentive to improve / innovate (I am not saying they wouldn't as I think they are a good Dept. just playing devil's advocate), whereas competition forces this aspect to a certain extent. Also DBS would not be offering the course if there was not a demand for it. The course fits a very diffierent gap to UCD, allowing people to study part-time in the evenings whilst still working full time. The course in UCd does not allow for this, so surely the DBS course has a value in this sense?

snickerpuss

I do find the differences between the MLIS and the MA Archives and Records Management quite weird. Obviously they are not the same profession, but the admissions couldn't be more different.

There are usually only 9-14 people in the Archives MA each year. They all have to have really good qualifications (minimum 2.1 or high 2.2) but most already have another MA or Phd. Then there is a lengthy application form and interview.

Also, a substantial amount of experience is necessary before the course. They want you to really understanding archives and archiving and basically live and breathe it! During the course you also do an internship in the UK.

I basically worked my ass off for a year getting experience (for free!) and joining things that showed my interest in history and archives. MLIS seems like a free for all by comparison! Anyway, just butting in.

parker kent

eclectichoney wrote: »

But it's a free market and would you not surely agree that competition from DBS is a good thing? Without such competition SILS would have a monopoly and possibly no real incentive to improve / innovate (I am not saying they wouldn't as I think they are a good Dept. just playing devil's advocate), whereas competition forces this aspect to a certain extent. Also DBS would not be offering the course if there was not a demand for it. The course fits a very diffierent gap to UCD, allowing people to study part-time in the evenings whilst still working full time. The course in UCd does not allow for this, so surely the DBS course has a value in this sense?

If the DBS course catered just for part time students, evening students etc I would see value in it as an Irish alternative for distance learning. But I honestly can't see the point in 2 courses for full time students. I know competition is good for consumers, but I'm not comfortable treating education as a product.

I'm not sure that there being a demand for a course in necessarily enough of a reason to have it. Sure the respective colleges will make money (and these days they need all they can get), but is it really to the benefit of the industry? I think somebody, somewhere should have the ability to think of the wider industry. There is surely a diminishing rate of return to the sector with each increase in qualified librarians? To use an entirely different example, there are more people that want to study medicine than ever actually are enrolled in medicine and that is because they want quality, not quantity. Whilst I'm not for one second saying health and medicine are the same, I think the same principle should apply.

Overall, I think we both agree on a lot of issues, just I am less convinced in the benefits of the free market to education!

parker kent

snickerpuss wrote: »

I do find the differences between the MLIS and the MA Archives and Records Management quite weird. Obviously they are not the same profession, but the admissions couldn't be more different.

There are usually only 9-14 people in the Archives MA each year. They all have to have really good qualifications (minimum 2.1 or high 2.2) but most already have another MA or Phd. Then there is a lengthy application form and interview.

Also, a substantial amount of experience is necessary before the course. They want you to really understanding archives and archiving and basically live and breathe it! During the course you also do an internship in the UK.

I basically worked my ass off for a year getting experience (for free!) and joining things that showed my interest in history and archives. MLIS seems like a free for all by comparison! Anyway, just butting in.

Actually this is pretty much what I have been trying and failing to say! I completely forgot about the Archives MA, but it is a great example of how a similar course has completely different admissions procedures. The Archives course itself is actually pretty similar to how I would re-jig the MLIS.

eclectichoney

parker kent wrote: »

If the DBS course catered just for part time students, evening students etc I would see value in it as an Irish alternative for distance learning. But I honestly can't see the point in 2 courses for full time students. I know competition is good for consumers, but I'm not comfortable treating education as a product.

My understanding is that most of the students are part-time evening students.

As regards the difference between the MA in Archives & the MLIS; I feel the former is a far more specialised career / profession and so is more suited to this approach, whereas the career of a Librarian is probably far broader and thus can potentially suit a lot of different types of people e.g. you could work exclusively in systems, or in outreach & promotion, in information literacy/training, in reference services/as a subject librarian, as a cataloguer etc. Each role has quite a different skillset and requires a different aptitude e.g. contrast somebody working in outreach with a cataloguer!

I really do think that the minimum experience requirement for the MLIS should be way higher however, something like 6 months minimum (and the aforementioned 2.1 requirement if not already in place, which I think it is).

I agree that education isn't a product in the typical sense, and would not be in favour of churning out postgrads on a production line in the slightest, I was merely making the point that I can understand why the present situation has arisen. That doesn't make is desirable however.

parker kent

Yeah I agree they are different professions and as such one needs more specialised teaching. What I would take from the Archiving module is more stringent admissions procedures to ensure that people really want to be a librarian and are suited to the potential roles.

I'd agree about increasing the amount of experience required too. I know that would be a major issue for people now as experience is extremely difficult to find.

And eclectichoney, sorry if I seemed like I was saying you were in favour of education as a product/production line. I know that's not that you are saying. Basically you are just being more realistic and less idealistic than I am!

snickerpuss

Yeah, I wasn't implying they were similiar professions, just pointing out the totally different admissions procedures.

Chinafoot

eclectichoney said pretty much what I wanted to say but I have to respond to a few things here.

parker kent wrote: »

I think the onus should be on the Library Council to ensure that there is only one accredited course and that it has a strict admissions procedure.

I completely and utterly disagree on this. UCD is not a suitable course for everyone. I, and many of my colleagues, have had to do the course via distance learning in Aber because UCD is not an option. A year off work unpaid, fees and then supporting yourself while you study? You might as well include a minimum bank balance in your admissions process. If UCD offered workable part-time, evening, distance learning aspects to the course then I might be more open to them being the only accredited course in this country. Until then, absolutely not.

parker kent wrote: »

I also want libraries to have staff suited to working in libraries.

Courses like the MLIS should also need at least an interview and some other form of pre-admissions screening. I don't think the current system ensures that the right people get a chance to work in libraries. I was very surprised before, during and after the course to hear peoples' attitudes towards libraries. I often heard people question if they were ever actually going to work in libraries. I know any course is open to such issues (no course will ever get 100% of students moving on to careers in the area), but there are things that can be changed. I'd like to change the admissions procedure and certain things within the course itself.

I agree that there should be staff suited to working in libraries which is why I would drastically change the work experience required. 6 weeks of shelving books (and lets face it, that is the extent of many work experience placements duties) and then people walk out of that course calling themselves librarians? Give me a break. The current system doesn't ensure that the right people get a chance to work in libraries, I agree, and if you make the UCD course the only accredited course in the country you will prohibit that even further.

parker kent wrote: »

It is in both of their interests to get the best employees, and the LAI are of course the body that give official recognition to the course. When I made that point about giving official recognition to one course, I was stating that I think there should only be one course. So I was basically saying the DBS course is not necessary. So that is why I didn't mention them again. I don't see the need for two courses, not just now but at any time really.

You say that as someone who has already completed the course. Restricting access to the qualification will not necessarily ensure you get the best employees. You might get the wealthiest though. :rolleyes:

snickerpuss wrote: »

I do find the differences between the MLIS and the MA Archives and Records Management quite weird. Obviously they are not the same profession, but the admissions couldn't be more different.

There are usually only 9-14 people in the Archives MA each year. They all have to have really good qualifications (minimum 2.1 or high 2.2) but most already have another MA or Phd. Then there is a lengthy application form and interview.

Also, a substantial amount of experience is necessary before the course. They want you to really understanding archives and archiving and basically live and breathe it! During the course you also do an internship in the UK.

I basically worked my ass off for a year getting experience (for free!) and joining things that showed my interest in history and archives. MLIS seems like a free for all by comparison! Anyway, just butting in.

I agree that they do have a better admissions process in terms of experience required but the job is unbelievably specialised. For every library department with a staff of 100 you could have one archivist.

parker, I don't mean to offend you but, to me anyway, your posts just seem to say "I have my qualification, now stop giving it to others because I can't get a job."

I do agree that changes should be made. I think people who approach this course need to have far, far more experience than is currently required.

Graduates also need to realise that they don't walk out of this course a librarian. I would actually love to see someone get their 6 weeks experience, get the qualification and walk into a librarian position. They wouldn't have a hope because the role of a librarian is something that can only be learned through working in a library. Much of the course is not relevant to the job, and the Aber course is the same. When you leave this course you will still have major competition for a library assistant position unless you have a substantial amount of experience.

I work with a lot of qualified library assistants. They aren't librarians. They are library assistants and they will remain library assistants until they get a librarian position. This is how it works. I also work with a lot of unqualified library assistants, senior library assistants and staff officers and they are some of the best library staff I have ever encountered.

People need to be far more realistic about what working in a library involves and 6 weeks experience is not going to provide that.