We are in a national crisis, where is our government?

freewheeler

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Yeah, cos the snow only affects 'the ordinary people' . .

I'm a member of FF (as you know) and at 4pm this afternoon 'the party' turned up on my doorstep with a snowplough, a bucket of salt and a nice hot cup of cocoa. . Feck you 'ordinary people', you're on your own !

Fianna Failure policy in a nutshell...

Dannyboy83

I thought Cork was pretty good in fairness, although watch out for the end of the M8 when you come out at Watergrasshill, there have been a lot of crashes there recently apparently as people come off the motorway which is well gritted and onto the dual carriageway which is 'less' gritted, and not being aware of the change.

My sister was trying to get home for 4 hours in Dublin today tho, so I guess things are worse in the East.

nesf

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I thought Cork was pretty good in fairness, although watch out for the end of the M8 when you come out at Watergrasshill, there have been a lot of crashes there recently apparently as people come off the motorway which is well gritted and onto the dual carriageway which is 'less' gritted, and not being aware of the change.

My sister was trying to get home for 4 hours in Dublin today tho, so I guess things are worse in the East.

Cork city is fine, go 10-20 miles inland and you'll find most non-primary routes have been ice rinks for the past 3 weeks or so. The northern part of the county has been the worst effected.

JoeyKudo

Wahay, first post!

Well, first things first, the calls to declare a national emergency are a bit much. It's unusual for us, granted, but the levels of snowfall haven't been mind boggling. For the country to declare a national emergency would, frankly, be embarrassing.

The issue really is, as usual, a lack of foresight and preparation on behalf of government (to an extent) and particularly local authorities. How much could it cost to store grit on the off change that MAYBE something like this would happen? I don't buy the fact that it was too expensive or too inconvenient to prepare for this.

The only segment of society we should be concerned with is the elderly; it must be very difficult to get out with conditions as they are. But that's not a reason to call a national emergency. Again, the opposition make themselves sound silly while the government flounders. Great bunch of lads.

Anyway, I love the snow. Snowball fights, snowmen, no school! What more could anyone want?

97i9y3941

i dont buy into this bull of if we gave the farmers grit to do the roads it would lead to liable claims,they already gave the farmers contracts in the uk and north to grit the backroads,so less of this liable/our overtime would be cut rubbish please...

Taxipete29

To be fair we have been in an national crisis for sometime now. The weather has just heaped more s**t onto the pile.

I considered the flooding before Christmas a crisis. The snow is not. It is however extremely poor management. This snow was well forecast. Why did nobody think to send out the gritters this morning. Alot of this could of been avoided.

Councils are a joke
Dublin Bus are a joke
People trying to rev their way out of the ice is beyond a joke.

Overheal

lol, the snow IS the flooding. its just frozen the flooding never when away, **** just got colder.

Alcatel

Not a national issue? We're a nation of 4 million people, there's countries where local councils are bigger. What we need from our government is central leadership - the government has a high level overview of the situation, and should be coordinating between all the branches of the state.

Let's say local council in one area needs extra resources, say Gardai, and an hours drive away there's a bunch of Guards with nothing to do? (Speaking in pure theory.) Well, who's going to better coordinate that than the government?

Slydice

Alcatel wrote: »

Not a national issue? We're a nation of 4 million people, there's countries where local councils are bigger. What we need from our government is central leadership - the government has a high level overview of the situation, and should be coordinating between all the branches of the state.

Let's say local council in one area needs extra resources, say Gardai, and an hours drive away there's a bunch of Guards with nothing to do? (Speaking in pure theory.) Well, who's going to better coordinate that than the government?

I was thinking something along those lines aswell.

A good portion of the country seems to be in trouble.

The local councils can only use their local supplies and services.

Wouldn't it be good if the national government could step in. They could look at what each council has and see if anything can be loaned to places where the snow has hit really badly.

On the news, they seem to be saying that money isn't the issue here. If it isn't, then spend some by trying to coordinate the resources of the country to help the worst affected areas.

bmaxi

It's not a crisis. When Guinness trucks can't get through to Tullamore, then it'll be a crisis.

RedPlanet

It actually is a tough situation.
For one, we don't get enough snow to merit purchasing a large fleet of snow removal equipment.
For two, we have too many bleeding roads for such a small country/population. It makes gritting a much bigger job than it needs to be.

Personally, as a pedestrian i think we should change some laws so that a place of business/homeowner/landlord is legally responsible for the snow/ice removal from the footpaths fronting their properties. I think this is the way it's done in USA and Canada.

I mean come on, a bloody snow shovel could clear lots of ice and snow from our footpaths.

Liam Byrne

LoanShark wrote: »

Well, RTE news and all the national papers as well as people posting on this site kinda adds fuel to the fire!

RTE News & the "national" papers are all based in Dublin, and - since it would be pointed out in relation to resources or population in general - there are more people in Dublin, so there's a good chance that there will be more people from Dublin on here, even if it were the same percentage.

I can never figure out why Ireland has to come to a standstill after 2 inches of snow and a bit of frost.

And listening to the radio this morning before getting up, I could have sworn that there would be a foot of snow outside; I got up, and there's the quarter-inch remains of yesterday's flurry......it's frozen, so it's slippy, and there's no water (there's irony if there ever was such a thing) and the heating's off, but it's (a) manageable and (b) far less of an issue than it would be for someone in Donegal or Wicklow under 2 feet of snow, or for a seventy-year-old who lives alone.

So it's not a "national crisis" by any stretch of the imagination.

****e organisation and lack of foresight (as usual), as well as no social services or support, but not a "national crisis".

drkpower

Alcatel wrote: »

Not a national issue? We're a nation of 4 million people, there's countries where local councils are bigger. What we need from our government is central leadership - the government has a high level overview of the situation, and should be coordinating between all the branches of the state.

Let's say local council in one area needs extra resources, say Gardai, and an hours drive away there's a bunch of Guards with nothing to do? (Speaking in pure theory.) Well, who's going to better coordinate that than the government?

ffs...

The Government is there for many reasons; to legislate, to formulate policy, to communicate that policy to the people etc etc. It is not there to coordinate between the Gardai and local councils; they are capable of doing that themselves.

The problem with so many people is that anytime something goes wrong, they pressurise the 'government' or their local TD to sort it out when it is not their role. This incentivises the politics of parochialism. And then the same people bemoan 'parish pump politics' and how it is the ruination of our country.

Liam Byrne

RedPlanet wrote: »

Personally, as a pedestrian i think we should change some laws so that a place of business/homeowner/landlord is legally responsible for the snow/ice removal from the footpaths fronting their properties. I think this is the way it's done in USA and Canada.

You can't even fill a pothole outside your house in this country, or wipe a floor without sticking up a massive "Wet Floor" sign, in case someone slips and decides to sue!

How the hell could you convince someone that - despite them slipping - your actions had actually reduced their chances of slipping ?

You'd be broke and in need of public liability insurance in no time.

drkpower

RedPlanet wrote: »

Personally, as a pedestrian i think we should change some laws so that a place of business/homeowner/landlord is legally responsible for the snow/ice removal from the footpaths fronting their properties. I think this is the way it's done in USA and Canada.

And what if you arent at home when it snows/freezes.....or your genuine attempts to remove the snow make it more dangerous..?

I can accept a general duty on a homeowner to practically remove huge amounts of snow (as per Canada/US) in order to allow people to physically get through, but to hold homeowners responsible for injuries sustained on icy paths which were not uncleared or on paths where an attempt was made to de-ice them is ridiculously onerous.

RedPlanet

drkpower wrote: »

And what if you arent at home when it snows/freezes.....or your genuine attempts to remove the snow make it more dangerous..?

I'm sure some leeway is afforded. Say, 24 hours?
Secondly, if you can't remove a bit of snow and end up making it more dangerous then you'd be rather incompetent.

drkpower wrote: »

I can accept a general duty on a homeowner to practically remove huge amounts of snow (as per Canada/US) in order to allow people to physically get through, but to hold homeowners responsible for injuries sustained on icy paths which were not uncleared or on paths where an attempt was made to de-ice them is ridiculously onerous.

In fairness i didn't say they'd be liable for injuries on a public footpath.
But ask yourself this: how come this system works in a country of 280million people?

Alcatel

drkpower wrote: »

ffs...

The Government is there for many reasons; to legislate, to formulate policy, to communicate that policy to the people etc etc. It is not there to coordinate between the Gardai and local councils; they are capable of doing that themselves.

The problem with so many people is that anytime something goes wrong, they pressurise the 'government' or their local TD to sort it out when it is not their role. This incentivises the politics of parochialism. And then the same people bemoan 'parish pump politics' and how it is the ruination of our country.

When a country is affected, nationwide, by something it is usually best to have a central point of contact to run things by for effective coordination. That works too in business day to day and a bunch of other areas.

You need to have people with a high level view of all that happens who can connect random dots A and Z to one another in a way not done by people on the ground who can only see the snow in front of them.

OldJay

RedPlanet wrote: »

In fairness i didn't say they'd be liable for injuries on a public footpath.
But ask yourself this: how come this system works in a country of 280million people?

Apathetic Ireland (on the ground as well as at the polls) likes to sit on its hands during crises like this. Also instead of actually doing what any normal decent person would do in clearing paths and driveways of snow, it likes to spend its time composing an 'outraged' email or spend on an internet forum or moaning about a government that it never bothered to get vote against.

drkpower

RedPlanet wrote: »

I'm sure some leeway is afforded. Say, 24 hours?
Secondly, if you can't remove a bit of snow and end up making it more dangerous then you'd be rather incompetent.

Have you tried it?
I have - hammering away at the ice last weekend, using salth, the whole lot - at it for an hour - managed to make a reasonable track for the wheels of my car but it was impossible to remove it all and what was left was a number of 'ridges' which while better for grip, could trip up someone. So what happens if someone does trip on one fo the ridges? Am I liable? Am I expected to do 2 or 3 or 4 hours work every day it is freezing?

RedPlanet wrote: »

In fairness i didn't say they'd be liable for injuries on a public footpath.
But ask yourself this: how come this system works in a country of 280million people?

So what is the obligation you want to enforce? If you just mean that there is a general duty to remove massive snow drifts, fine, but if there is an obligation to remove ice/frost/snow generally, you need to be able to deal with the consequences for people who end up being injured by those who remove it in a haphazard or unsatisfactory way.

These things are never as simple as 'you should have to do X or Y'; you might want to see what system actually operates in N. America

dan_d

In Europe you're obliged to clear your footpath and the roof of your house - if it gets that heavy. No bullsh*t.

As for our Government - they're on their extended Christmas holidays, aren't they? Naturally!

I see this weather is predicted to last til March (breakingnews.ie). I don't know whether I really believe that, but maybe we'll have got the hang of it by then.

drkpower

Alcatel wrote: »

When a country is affected, nationwide, by something it is usually best to have a central point of contact to run things by for effective coordination. That works too in business day to day and a bunch of other areas.

You need to have people with a high level view of all that happens who can connect random dots A and Z to one another in a way not done by people on the ground who can only see the snow in front of them.

Sure, a central contact, no problem with that; a high level view, grand. But it doesnt need to be the Minister/the Government.

There are plenty of people who should be acting in these roles already. Calling on the government to micro-manage every issue as it happens is short-sighted and counterproductive.

And it always seems to be the people calling for this who then bemoan how politicians are beholden to local and special interests (not looking at you in particular). Well, surprise surprise.... If you expect and reward them for sorting out your local pothole or de-icing your driveway, dont be surprised if they dont give the requisite attention to what they are actually there for (running the country).

RedPlanet

drkpower wrote: »

Have you tried it?

Yep, plenty of experience tbh.
You have to catch it before it turns rock-hard.
AFter that, you need salt, lots and lots of salt. And i don't mean the finely ground table salt you put on your food.
It takes time to let the salt work it's way, can't expect instant results.

drkpower wrote: »

These things are never as simple as 'you should have to do X or Y'; you might want to see what system actually operates in N. America

Yeah i have, it works fine there.
People get up early or come home from work and get straight into it.
I've done it myself.
What do you think is so special about Ireland that it cannot remove a bit of snow and ice?
Is it that most irish just expect some government service to do everything for them?

galway2007

So now it is a national crisis when the slums of Dublin are hit
We have had the crisis in the west and north for the last 3 weeks and before that we had flooding
Shame on the Irish media on about a few flakes in Dublin
Learn to cope with it like we had to and stop moaning and moaning
As for the opposition shame on yea also wake up and you might see that there are 3 million other people in the country but yea did not call the crisis for them

drkpower

RedPlanet wrote: »

Yep, plenty of experience tbh.
You have to catch it before it turns rock-hard.
AFter that, you need salt, lots and lots of salt. And i don't mean the finely ground table salt you put on your food.
It takes time to let the salt work it's way, can't expect instant results.

Yeah i have, it works fine there.
People get up early or come home from work and get straight into it.
I've done it myself.
What do you think is so special about Ireland that it cannot remove a bit of snow and ice?
Is it that most irish just expect some government service to do everything for them?

What if you dont catch it before it turns rock-hard?
What if you cant get up early or come home from work and get straight into it?
What if you are away?

You are talking about enforcing a legislative obligation on people. What are the penalties if you dont? What are the consequences if you do it in a substandard way?

You need to flesh out what system you claim operates in N. America other than 'People get up early or come home from work and get straight into it.':D Thats hardly a basis for imposing civil and/or criminal liability on householders.:eek:

Alcatel

drkpower wrote: »

Sure, a central contact, no problem with that; a high level view, grand. But it doesnt need to be the Minister/the Government.

There are plenty of people who should be acting in these roles already. Calling on the government to micro-manage every issue as it happens is short-sighted and counterproductive.

And it always seems to be the people calling for this who then bemoan how politicians are beholden to local and special interests (not looking at you in particular). Well, surprise surprise.... If you expect and reward them for sorting out your local pothole or de-icing your driveway, dont be surprised if they dont give the requisite attention to what they are actually there for (running the country).

When the capital city grinds to a halt, I think that they're not running the country.

imme

galway2007 wrote: »

So now it is a national crisis when the slums of Dublin are hit
We have had the crisis in the west and north for the last 3 weeks and before that we had flooding
Shame on the Irish media on about a few flakes in Dublin
Learn to cope with it like we had to and stop moaning and moaning
As for the opposition shame on yea also wake up and you might see that there are 3 million other people in the country but yea did not call the crisis for them

sorry to hear of your trouble poster.
yes indeed the floods did take a terrible toll on the west in the greater part. Other areas were also affected. Units of the army were mobilised to assist those in distress, does this not show that flooding was treated as an emergency?
Where are these 'slums' of which you speak???
Dublin is the capital city of the country, it is the seat of power/finance/industry/manufacturing. Should we worry if Dublin is in lock down, yes we should.

RedPlanet

drkpower wrote: »

What if you dont catch it before it turns rock-hard?
What if you cant get up early or come home from work and get straight into it?
What if you are away?

I've already answered that - Salt
Then you let it turn into rock solid ice, see above.
Get somebody else to to do it. Or not, let it build up, let people complain and let the council send you a fine.

drkpower wrote: »

You are talking about enforcing a legislative obligation on people. What are the penalties if you dont? What are the consequences if you do it in a substandard way?

To the dungeon with them :rolleyes:

drkpower wrote: »

You need to flesh out what system you claim operates in N. America other than 'People get up early or come home from work and get straight into it.':D Thats hardly a basis for imposing civil and/or criminal liability on householders.:eek:

Works in a country with 280million.
I take it you're in the "let the government sort it out" brigade.

RedPlanet

According to Philadelphia Code 10-720, "The owner, agent and tenants of any building or premises shall clear a path of not less than 30 inches in width on all sidewalks abutting the building or premises withing 6 hours after the snow has ceased to fall." Failure to comply in Philadelphia sidewalk snow removal could result in penalties ranging from $100 to $300, and residents can also be penalized for dumping the snow from their sidewalks into the street.

While not part of the sidewalk snow-removal code, the city also requests that residents help keep snow clear of storm drains and fire hydrants.

If you're searching for someone to clear your sidewalk for you, one of the best places to look is on craigslist, where can either post a sidewalk-shoveling gig or browse ads from people offering their services.

http://philadelphia.about.com/od/governmentcivicissues/a/sidewalk_snow_removal.htm

roboto

RedPlanet wrote: »

It actually is a tough situation.
Personally, as a pedestrian i think we should change some laws so that a place of business/homeowner/landlord is legally responsible for the snow/ice removal from the footpaths fronting their properties. I think this is the way it's done in USA and Canada.

we have that law in Germany as well and it works. Homeowners take responsibility and look after "their" footpath. The council looks after the roads. There is a shared responsibility and community resources are used to efficieny.

ninty9er

Alcatel wrote: »

Let's say local council in one area needs extra resources, say Gardai, and an hours drive away there's a bunch of Guards with nothing to do? (Speaking in pure theory.) Well, who's going to better coordinate that than the government?

How would the government know there's Garda doing nothing an hour away?? This is a role for the Gardaí themselves, not the government.

Alcatel wrote: »

When a country is affected, nationwide, by something it is usually best to have a central point of contact to run things by for effective coordination. That works too in business day to day and a bunch of other areas.

What do you mean nationwide?? The path outside my house is perfectly walkable and when I get past the 2mm of slush to the end of the road, all the roads are gritted between there and work. The country is not affected nationwide, Dublin and the commuter counties are, everyone else just knows how to handle it.