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We are in a national crisis, where is our government?

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    #62
    Angry Troll
    Closed Accounts Posts: 224 ✭✭Angry Troll


    Overheal wrote: »
    [...]
    But you know what? While this is a bad winter on the books, this kind of weather is not uncommon in many areas.[...]


    totally. where i grew up (southern germany) what we have here in ireland now would be seen as a few rather average winter days and the roads and pavements would be cleared and gritted every day (major roads also at night) and more than once a day if necessary...of course, back home they are better prepared as snow and ice are common in winter...but still, what is happening here in dublin and ireland right now is just a sad joke...


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    #63
    imme
    Registered Users Posts: 3,200 ✭✭✭imme


    National Task Force just announced by John Gormley. It's now a national emergency.


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    #64
    ninty9er
    Registered Users Posts: 9,366 ✭✭✭ninty9er


    imme wrote: »
    National Task Force just announced by John Gormley. It's now a national emergency.
    :rolleyes:


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    #65
    imme
    Registered Users Posts: 3,200 ✭✭✭imme


    ninty9er wrote: »
    :rolleyes:
    what did you say there 99er?
    :rolleyes:
    :D


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    #66
    Angry Troll
    Closed Accounts Posts: 224 ✭✭Angry Troll


    imme wrote: »
    National Task Force just announced by John Gormley. It's now a national emergency.


    so surely all will be grand


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    #67
    roboto
    Registered Users Posts: 10 ✭roboto


    imme wrote: »
    National Task Force just announced by John Gormley. It's now a national emergency.

    the "National Task Force" will just talk until it starts to thaw, then they claim victory and their fat payslips.


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    #68
    dan_d
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,819 ✭✭✭dan_d


    It is a sad joke, isn't it? We're fairly pathetic. Did we even get 2 inches of snow in the city yet?
    Personally, I reckon we should learn our lessons from this mess, and be ready for it next year. It'll happen again in the not distant future, and we do need to have some sort of contingency plan in place to ensure roads and paths are gritted and the city doesn't shut down.
    As for clearing the footpath - stop complicating things. You just go and clear it as soon as you get a chance - every day. Namely before it has 3 or 4 days worth of frozen lumps all over it that you have to chisel away.Hence the time limit on the Philadelphia law quoted above. If we had to clean our paths ourselves, we'd have been out every day it snowed, clearing, thereby reducing the amount of work. If you're at work, you simply do it when you get home. It works everywhere else - we just like making things twice as complicated as they actually are.


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    #69
    jmayo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,186 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    ninty9er wrote: »
    How would the government know there's Garda doing nothing an hour away?? This is a role for the Gardaí themselves, not the government.


    What do you mean nationwide?? The path outside my house is perfectly walkable and when I get past the 2mm of slush to the end of the road, all the roads are gritted between there and work. The country is not affected nationwide, Dublin and the commuter counties are, everyone else just knows how to handle it.

    For fecks sake easy for some to talk about how lucky they are.
    Just because you happen to live in or very near one of the major cities and your journey to work is clear the rest of the country is not so lucky.
    Counties in the West have had major stretches of road that have been a disaster for weeks.
    And yes people use cars because there are no public transport options.
    Try and drive the N17 through county Sligo or the N5 through Mayo/Roscommon and see how long it takes.
    Yes they are national routes.

    As regards shovelling all the blame on local councils it is a bit rich since local councils in this country can't take a dump without central government's say so and money.

    What really grates is that we have our minister for the environment (which includes local government) showing up on the media when he wants to talk about his precious carbon tax or bike lanes, but he is nowhere to be seen when half the country is almost at a standstill.
    Does his portfolio not have some remit over county councils or does that only include the issue of one off housing ?

    Ultimately the government is supposed to be in charge of the country.
    They are bloody well paid enough and they are damm quick to always show up for the photo ops at the opening of every inch of new road, yet they are conveniently missing in action when someone wants to know why those same roads are left iced up for weeks.

    Ask for the minister of transport well he is ok since he often gets the helicopter (and the bigger AW139 at that) when he needs to commutte between his Meath base and Dublin.

    This latest weather (and the previous flooding) goes to once again display what absolutely inept planning, from all levels of government and state agencies, we have in this country. :rolleyes:

    EDIT: just spotted the gormless one is gonna luach a task force.
    Any hope it is like maggie's one and bound for The Falklands with him aboard
    Wipee doo we are saved. :rolleyes:

    I am not allowed discuss …



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    #70
    imme
    Registered Users Posts: 3,200 ✭✭✭imme


    roboto wrote: »
    the "National Task Force" will just talk until it starts to thaw, then they claim victory and their fat payslips.
    are you sure?
    can you foretell the future?


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    #71
    roboto
    Registered Users Posts: 10 ✭roboto


    imme wrote: »
    are you sure?
    can you foretell the future?

    no but i can refer to the past for incompetent government action.
    I bit late for that now and only after the public kicked up a stink.


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    #72
    OldJay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 943 ✭✭✭OldJay


    dan_d wrote: »
    It is a sad joke, isn't it? We're fairly pathetic. Did we even get 2 inches of snow in the city yet?
    Busiest roads in the country get a light cover which freezes then it snows again. This new layer starts to melt on top of an already frozen layer and roads are treacherous. Now they have all frozen again.
    Nothing pathetic about that. Its highly dangerous especially given the fact that we're talking about Irish drivers here, who at the best of times are generally woeful.


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    #73
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    RedPlanet wrote: »
    Works in a country with 280million.
    I take it you're in the "let the government sort it out" brigade.

    Do you know what the penalties/consequences are in N. America? I doubt it!! So you dont know how it 'works in a country with 280million'. You just have some vague idea that householders have to do something but dont know what the consequences are.

    There is a middle ground between legislatively obliging householders to do something/impoising legal liability on their failure to do so and 'letting the Government sort it out'. Try and see the world in more than black and whilte because it doesnt operate in black and white.


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    #74
    RedPlanet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,691 ✭✭✭RedPlanet


    drkpower wrote: »
    Do you know what the penalties/consequences are in N. America? I doubt it!! So you dont know how it 'works in a country with 280million'. You just have some vague idea that householders have to do something but dont know what the consequences are.
    FFS drkpower cop on would you?
    It says right there in my link that in Philadelphia the fine is 100 to 300$.


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    #75
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    Alcatel wrote: »
    When the capital city grinds to a halt, I think that they're not running the country.

    Running the country means putting in place systems in advance so that the organisations charged with dealing with these issues can deal with them. It does not involve the relevant Minister taking calls and managing the incodent themselves. For one thing, they are not qualigfied to do so.

    If you want to criticise them for not ensuring that plans are in place, fine, but calling on them to be co-ordinating efforts now is ridiculous.


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    #76
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    RedPlanet wrote: »
    FFS drkpower cop on would you?
    It says right there in my link that in Philadelphia the fine is 100 to 300$.

    Settle down :D.
    It says they are obliged to remove the snow or face a fine. That;s fine; as I said, a general obligation to remove snow is grand.

    But the more difficult bits are the consequences of removing it in a genuine but substandard fashion (can a faller sue you?) and the consequences if you are away/undisposed (are you still liable for the fine?) .

    They are the actual practical issues that arise from imposing a legislative duty and it is not clear what the US position is. You cant just impose a law in a vacumn - it may sound like a good idea, but you need to consider the natural consequences of imposing that duty.


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    #77
    RedPlanet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,691 ✭✭✭RedPlanet


    drkpower wrote: »
    Settle down :D.
    It says they are obliged to remove the snow or face a fine. That;s fine; as I said, a general obligation to remove snow is grand.

    But the more difficult bits are the consequences of removing it in a genuine but substandard fashion (can a faller sue you?) and the consequences if you are away/undisposed (are you still liable for the fine?) .

    They are the actual practical issues that arise from imposing a legislative duty and it is not clear what the US position is. You cant just impose a law in a vacumn - it may sound like a good idea, but you need to consider the natural consequences of imposing that duty.
    That, is an issue that varies from county to county, state to state and city to city.
    But the common theme from the US, and Germany as we have learned, is that the responsiblity lies with the homeowner/tenant to keep the footpath clear of snow and ice.
    I haven't heard a better idea from you and i am borrowing my learning from countries that have addressed our very situation for years.


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    #78
    roboto
    Registered Users Posts: 10 ✭roboto


    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0107/breaking20.htm

    Irish Times, 7th Jan. 2010
    Council staff clearing Dublin paths

    IRISH TIMES REPORTERS
    Dublin City Council has re-deployed 500 staff to help remove ice and snow from areas of high pedestrian use as stocks of salt for gritting roads reach critical levels.
    The council confirmed earlier it had less than one day’s supply left and that all available salt and grit would be used on the city's roads and not on footpaths or in areas of high pedestrian traffic.
    Council staff have been redeployed from waste management, drainage and parks departments to assist the staff in roads maintenance to clear areas of high pedestrian use. Staff are currently working in Grafton Street and O’Connell Street.

    An additional 200 staff from the parks department are working in different areas of the city, with a particular focus on the main hospitals.
    Earlier, a spokesman for the authority said salt and grit supplies were being rationed but deliveries were expected tomorrow from Britain, Northern Ireland and Cork.
    [...]
    plan B, better than doing nothing


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    #79
    Angry Troll
    Closed Accounts Posts: 224 ✭✭Angry Troll


    and now it seems the military is on standby to assist local authorities...this is getting more interesting by the minute...good idea though if you have no civilian means to handle the situation....

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0107/breaking1.htm


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    #80
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    RedPlanet wrote: »
    That, is an issue that varies from county to county, state to state and city to city.
    But the common theme from the US, and Germany as we have learned, is that the responsiblity lies with the homeowner/tenant to keep the footpath clear of snow and ice.
    I haven't heard a better idea from you and i am borrowing my learning from countries that have addressed our very situation for years.

    I have no problem with a general obligation to remove snow from your own path, which I have said a few times now:confused:...

    My difficulty is what the consequences are, particularly in respect of your liability to pedestrians, (other than a few hundred dollars - which is small beer) if you:
    1. dont remove it
    2. cant remove it
    3. try to remove it but make it more dangerous unintentionally.

    You havent been able to address these points. And they are the key points, because to impose a legislative obligation on someone which leaves them open to un-ending financial risk is unjust.


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    #81
    aurelius79
    Closed Accounts Posts: 395 ✭✭aurelius79


    I see a lot of people here defending the government and saying all the responsibility lays of the local councils. I agree to an extent. Weather like this is not a regular occurrence in this country. It's understandable that local authorities were just not prepared for it.

    It would not have been unreasonable to expect our national government to seek assistance from other countries that deal with this every year. I don't believe it would have been too difficult for some minister to pick up the phone and try to organize an emergency shipment of salt and grit from France, Germany, or Norway etc. These countries are well used to this situation and I'm sure they have salt stockpiled somewhere. We could/should have sent a ferry over to France and picked up a few containers of the stuff then distributed it to the main cities/towns in Ireland. I guess that would have just made too much sense.


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    #82
    RedPlanet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,691 ✭✭✭RedPlanet


    drkpower wrote: »
    My difficulty is what the consequences are, particularly in respect of your liability to pedestrians, (other than a few hundred dollars - which is small beer) if you:
    1. dont remove it
    2. cant remove it
    3. try to remove it but make it more dangerous unintentionally.

    You havent been able to address these points. And they are the key points, because to impose a legislative obligation on someone which leaves them open to un-ending financial risk is unjust.
    I've already said that in Phily you get a fine for not removing it.
    I imagine that if you balls it up via incompetence then yes you should be held liable for any damages that result.
    In the state of Maryland the owner/tenant can be sued if someone gets injured.
    In other places they can't.
    I'm sure in this country we can borrow from laws that exist in other places just like we do with the UK regularly. We can fine owners/tenants that don't remove snow and ice, we can fine them for making it more dangerous and we can let the council be held liable for injuires.

    Rocket Bloody Science isn't it?


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    #83
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Badabing wrote: »
    It's up to every local council to provide the local services to the people, we had elections in june and every Labour Fine Gael Socialist etc.. said we need change at local level well we got it now they must prove it.
    Ironically, the one party that was committed to local government reform, the Greens, were completely wiped out in the local elections.
    Taxipete29 wrote: »
    This snow was well forecast.
    Was it? I don’t think anyone foresaw this prolonged cold spell (open to correction though).


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    #84
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Slydice wrote: »
    Wouldn't it be good if the national government could step in. They could look at what each council has and see if anything can be loaned to places where the snow has hit really badly.
    The local councils cannot do that themselves? Are people seriously suggesting that we are electing local representatives who we do not deem fit to take on the responsibility of ensuring roads are gritted? Seriously?
    jmayo wrote: »
    What really grates is that we have our minister for the environment (which includes local government) showing up on the media when he wants to talk about his precious carbon tax or bike lanes, but he is nowhere to be seen when half the country is almost at a standstill.
    ...
    EDIT: just spotted the gormless one is gonna luach a task force.
    Any hope it is like maggie's one and bound for The Falklands with him aboard
    Wipee doo we are saved. :rolleyes:
    Damned if he does and damned if he doesn’t, eh?


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    #85
    Angry Troll
    Closed Accounts Posts: 224 ✭✭Angry Troll


    drkpower wrote: »
    [...]
    3. try to remove it but make it more dangerous unintentionally.

    [...]


    how do you do that? i think anyone able to own or rent a house will be able to understand the basics of snow/ice removal and gritting. if not, there is surely a book on that topic available somewhere. and there are institutions to house and care for people like that too.

    works just fine in other countries…


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    #86
    thecretinhop
    Registered Users Posts: 6,595 ✭✭✭thecretinhop


    This is coming close to a national crisis, many parts of Ireland have been snowed in for weeks now, the thing is this weather is nothing like the rest of europe get, i.e. it is very managable, but if roads and paths are not gritted you will have accidents and grind the country to a halt, whats happening is a total lack of leadership from top to bottom, its basically a mess there is tens of thousands of tonnes of grit in ireland and we import it from Spain? it takes a week to come in ffs..
    In a nutshell this is roughly what is happening:

    RSA: "thats not my responsibilty"
    National Government "what? thats not our area, thats local council"
    Local Council: "we have no money, we have ran out of grit, we were not expecting this"


    As someone who was very close to the flooding in galway earlier this year Galway city was about 2 days away from being completely and utterly isolated from the rest of the country, the fecking plane was the only way in at one stage it was like berlin in the last days of the war!
    the pumps they used were totally useless, the planning was non existant, and it was only the stopping of the weather that stopped utter chaos,

    my main point is that yes weather happens, but its shocking:
    how slow
    how unorganised
    how little they care about road conditions. paths etc
    as usual with this government your on your own mate, thats my two cents on the matter anyhow;)


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    #87
    RedPlanet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,691 ✭✭✭RedPlanet


    Angry Troll wrote: »
    how do you do that? i think anyone able to own or rent a house will be able to understand the basics of snow/ice removal and gritting. if not, there is surely a book on that topic available somewhere. and there are institutions to house and care for people like that too.

    works just fine in other countries…

    Even the internet has our answer!
    http://www.ehow.com/how_13048_shovel-snow.html

    Some informative videos there for getting the ice off the driveway too.
    http://www.ehow.com/video_4427056_equipment-deicing-driveway.html


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    #88
    Fighting Irish
    Registered Users Posts: 7,065 ✭✭✭Fighting Irish


    jaysus i'd hate to see how people would react if something serious was happening


    ps we should always have 11ty bags of grit on standby for when this sorta thing happens every 20 years


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    #89
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    RedPlanet wrote: »
    I've already said that in Phily you get a fine for not removing it.
    I imagine that if you balls it up via incompetence then yes you should be held liable for any damages that result.
    In the state of Maryland the owner/tenant can be sued if someone gets injured.
    In other places they can't.
    I'm sure in this country we can borrow from laws that exist in other places just like we do with the UK regularly. We can fine owners/tenants that don't remove snow and ice, we can fine them for making it more dangerous and we can let the council be held liable for injuires.

    Rocket Bloody Science isn't it?

    Certainly not rocket science. But it may be brain surgery damage...:D

    If we are to consider bringing in such a positive obligation, we need to be pretty clear where the legal liability rests when someone goes ass over tit and ends up paraplegic. If I was in work/on holidays/away when this happened, I wouldn't be happy to be facing a multi-million euro liability.

    If those avenues are closed off, it seems like a good idea. Although clearly I need to be schooled in the easy way to remove all this ice, as do my neighbours, as we all got nowhere fast trying to remove the ingrained ice that had developed on our paths over the christmas period.


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    #90
    OldJay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 943 ✭✭✭OldJay


    thecretinhop wrote: »
    RSA: "thats not my responsibilty"
    National Government "what? thats not our area, thats local council"
    Local Council: "we have no money, we have ran out of grit, we were not expecting this"

    Followed Apathetic Ireland standing over theirs drives and paths, pointing and saying "look, thats a disgrace . . ." instead of chipping in and doing their bit to make their paths safe to walk on.
    I won't even start on the idiots who pour water onto cars to de-ice it and not even stop to think of what happens to the water that flows off the car.

    Pass the buck. Why change the habit of a lifetime?


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    #91
    Angry Troll
    Closed Accounts Posts: 224 ✭✭Angry Troll


    RedPlanet wrote: »
    Even the internet has our answer!
    http://www.ehow.com/how_13048_shovel-snow.html

    Some informative videos there for getting the ice off the driveway too.
    http://www.ehow.com/video_4427056_equipment-deicing-driveway.html


    yep, a very thorough step-by-step explanation...perfect...


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