Worst car for these conditions

Matt Simis

Barname wrote: »

funny that, I always observed the nouveau riche in BMW's . . .

Im driving a 10year old daily driver and a 17year old classic car... you must be real low on the social food chain to consider me nouveau riche! :pac:

CharlieCroker

Scariest thing I saw was a guy reving the nuts of an E92 M3 on Westminster Rd in foxrock, coming off the N11. Was grand for the first 20 metres but then started going backwards down the hill towards the main road out of Dublin when it was extremely busy. He managed to lodge his back wheel on the curb about 6 feet from the junction, he was haunted!!!!

Harcrid

I have driven the same type of car over the last two winters (Opel Omega) one of which was a 2.2 diesel manual (130HP)and my current one which is a 2.6 Auto Petrol (180HP). Both are RWD.

To my surprise, I found the auto to be much more civilised in icy conditions than the lower power diesel. I remember last year in the diesel struggling to make it up icy hills wherease this year, on the same hills I am having no problems.

I find that the winter mode on the auto is excellent as it locks the gearbox in third so it is easier to apply low rev power to the wheels which reduces the chance of wheelspin. I would imagine having a manual gearbox in the same car would be causing a lot more problems these days.

ianobrien

oisin_t wrote: »

focus rs/st...too much power to the front wheel leads to lots of wheel spin...(if its bad in my car it HAS to be bad in one of them!!)

But the Focus RS has a limo (Quaife ATB job) so both front wheels will pull, as opposed to the open diff in most cars. The Limo would make a big difference, provided the driver knew how to use it properly.....

blackiebest

1987 LHD VW t25 camper 1.9 Rear engine, RWD, do I win?

biko

Anan1 wrote: »

It's safer to use the brakes to slow down, engine braking only brakes the front wheels and can cause them to lock up on ice.

I disagree, engine braking is how I do it and never had an accident (+10 years of Scandinavian winter driving*). Braking is more likely to lock the wheels, well consider whether you have ABS/RWD/FWD/etc.

*btw, it's below 20 there at the moments and several inches of snow/ice between you and the tarmac.

oisin_t

ianobrien wrote: »

But the Focus RS has a limo (Quaife ATB job) so both front wheels will pull, as opposed to the open diff in most cars. The Limo would make a big difference, provided the driver knew how to use it properly.....

ok well from experience, the diff in it isnt all its craked up to be...

DublinWriter

What is it will all the BMWs having problems?

Took me 5 minutes to clear Campells bridge yesterday in my 320D.

Maybe the fact I had ASC on didn't help?

copacetic

Matt Simis wrote: »

Well, that may be the difference. The 530i Auto doesnt go rev crazy, its pretty lazy actually (though other people call it rev happy, in my opinion its slow). So in my case, the Auto keeps the Revs lower than I would and TC comes in rarely. Maybe the E39 had a better setup than the E46?
I drive ours, as I said, 150km, from little grass up the middle lane ways where I live, to wrecked backroads to the M50, so Ive covered basically the gamut and its been very well behaved.

Agree with this, the SW on Toms sounds weird. Mine keeps the revs really low with little input from acceleraor and will get me up most slopes as long as you never give it too much foot.

I can also pick a gear it manual mode and it will use that gear, never changes unless you go over the redline and never does it's own thing like Toms. Mines an E92.

Gnerally though you see a lot of RWD BMWs, Merc and Lexus struggle in this weather, no matter what the laws of physics apply. Poor tyres for the conditions + high power isn't a recipe for good results.

gerryCan

Anan1 wrote: »

It's safer to use the brakes to slow down, engine braking only brakes the front wheels and can cause them to lock up on ice.

Are you for real :eek:
I been out and about for the past couple of days and I have driven in the snow in the past. If you brake on ice you skid simple as that. Its like going down a hill on a normal (non icy road) drop a gear at the top of the hill and the gear will hold the car back and stop it running away.

I think you need snow driving lessons.

listermint

DublinWriter wrote: »

What is it will all the BMWs having problems?

Took me 5 minutes to clear Campells bridge yesterday in my 320D.

Maybe the fact I had ASC on didn't help?

I threw x2 100 litre bags of compost in the boot and let some air out of the tyres. Car pulls Far easier now.

Needs some weight in the back. And thoughful gearing

Anan1

Magnus wrote: »

I disagree, engine braking is how I do it and never had an accident (+10 years of Scandinavian winter driving*). Braking is more likely to lock the wheels, well consider whether you have ABS/RWD/FWD/etc.

*btw, it's below 20 there at the moments and several inches of snow/ice between you and the tarmac.

Engine braking was recommended in the days before ABS on the basis that it was more gentle and therefore less likely to lock the wheels. With modern ABS, though, that advantage is gone. Engine braking will usually work fine, but be a bit rough on a very slippy surface and it can easily lock the driven wheels, resulting in a slide. If that does happen then you need to accelerate to regain control, which for most drivers is counterintuitive. It's also less effective, as usually only two wheels are being braked instead of all four.

Barname

Matt Simis wrote: »

Im driving a 10year old daily driver and a 17year old classic car... you must be real low on the social food chain to consider me nouveau riche! :pac:

Once again you play the man and not the ball, lets play it your way then....

no, I dont consider you nouveau, you are simply a 'reacher'

similar to all those stressed out newer model 3 series drivers - 'reachers'

'reachers' - always stressed by either finance company repayment demands or imminent repair bills!

'reachers' are full of false pride and real envy, horrible drivers obliviously secure in their inadequecies

happy new year!

DublinWriter

Barname wrote: »

funny that, I always observed the nouveau riche in BMW's . . .

..or these days it's more likely to be the nouveau pouvre.

Eoin

Can we move on from the stupid generalisations please?

DublinWriter

listermint wrote: »

I threw x2 100 litre bags of compost in the boot and let some air out of the tyres. Car pulls Far easier now.

Needs some weight in the back. And thoughful gearing

Great idea...but will that work as well when you're trying to go uphill? Surely all the added weight in the back would be a hindrance?

Barname

eoin wrote: »

Can we move on from the stupid generalisations please?

you on your high horse !

ianobrien

I reckon I had (the car is currently in the great scrapyard in the sky) the worst car for ice, a Citroen AX GT. The car weighted in at 790kg including driver (according to the NCT) thanks to it's plastic panels and had a rev happy engine. Taking off in the wet was demanding and punishing on the tyres, especially up any type of hill. In the wet, it would spin the wheels in third if provoked.

One day, there was a bit of snow/ice, and the car couldn't move at all. I had a set of Colway Plus 4 tyres (a tyre designed for ralllying on gravel) on AX wheels and I threw them on, despite nearly freezing my fingers off. The difference was amaising. The car could go up any slope in the snow/ice with them tyres, and gave great confidence, but they didn't cure the tail happy nature of the car in bends.

Unfortunately, the tyres don't fit my current road car, because if they did, I'd have them on in a shot. Tyres make the world of difference.

Anan1

Barname wrote: »

you on your high horse !

* sighs * Banned for a week for trolling.

gfmason

Worst Car by far in these conditions would be an 04 Renault Scenic (that is if you can get it to start !)

seamus

Anan1 wrote: »

Engine braking was recommended in the days before ABS on the basis that it was more gentle and therefore less likely to lock the wheels. With modern ABS, though, that advantage is gone.

Depends on the ABS. My car has ABS and so does my wife's and neither kick in unless you really slam on the pedal. If you brake lightly and the wheel locks, the ABS does nothing.

Matt Simis

copacetic wrote: »

Gnerally though you see a lot of RWD BMWs, Merc and Lexus struggle in this weather, no matter what the laws of physics apply. Poor tyres for the conditions + high power isn't a recipe for good results.

This is true. You can kinda work around it, but the 3 quattros I had didnt need any tricks for driving in these conditions. And before someone mentions it, 4x4, quattro, RWD and FWD are all equally hopeless at braking. :P

tomED

Matt Simis wrote: »

Well, that may be the difference. The 530i Auto doesnt go rev crazy, its pretty lazy actually (though other people call it rev happy, in my opinion its slow). So in my case, the Auto keeps the Revs lower than I would and TC comes in rarely. Maybe the E39 had a better setup than the E46?
I drive ours, as I said, 150km, from little grass up the middle lane ways where I live, to wrecked backroads to the M50, so Ive covered basically the gamut and its been very well behaved.

Not a mechanic, so I've no idea if they are different!
But on the roads as I said I feel safe enough, but when you get stuck... it's not pleasant trying to get unstuck!

Anan1

seamus wrote: »

Depends on the ABS. My car has ABS and so does my wife's and neither kick in unless you really slam on the pedal. If you brake lightly and the wheel locks, the ABS does nothing.

Like engine braking so?;) Seriously though, i've only found that to happen at extremely low speeds, ie where the ABS might reasonably think that the car was at a standstill.

Shires

DublinWriter wrote: »

What is it will all the BMWs having problems?

Took me 5 minutes to clear Campells bridge yesterday in my 320D.

Maybe the fact I had ASC on didn't help?

Poor drivers? My E39 has been fine, not a bother.

MarkN

Haven't even looked at my car since Sunday.

Ordered new Michelin Pilots this week but not the Cup versions, semi slicks are great to brag about to your mates in the pub (if that's your thing!!) but they have left me totally stranded I've driven my car twice in the last week, both times cause I totally had to.

Nearly ruined the car last week during a 180 spin at crawling speeds and then got stuck on a small-ish hill and had to be helped out by passing guards who stopped cars coming towards me so I could try limp up, handbrake nearly fully on, 2nd gear, clutch burning to fook and all the traction gadgets off... joke! I couldn't be arsed going on a track so why BMW have to supply cars with racing tyres unless you specifically ask for them I don't know.

macnab

even a 4 wheel drive is going to struggle if it has the wrong tyres. My 400bhp RWD BMW is safer on snow than my brothers Rav4 4x4 because he has summer tyres and i have winter tyres.

ShadowHearth

i drive mine mx5 ot work daily. RWD+LSD+LIGHT=FUN! :P

Seriuosly, i havent had so much fun on roads in ages, i can drive in second gear with no problems on ice... So mazda mx5 is defenetly not the worst, its best . Dont know if toyo T1Rs help, but i got quite a bit of grip is not messing...

Thought i dont think i would feel comfortable in something heavy+rwd+auto....

biko

Anan1 wrote: »

Engine braking was recommended in the days before ABS on the basis that it was more gentle and therefore less likely to lock the wheels. With modern ABS, though, that advantage is gone. Engine braking will usually work fine, but be a bit rough on a very slippy surface and it can easily lock the driven wheels, resulting in a slide. If that does happen then you need to accelerate to regain control, which for most drivers is counterintuitive. It's also less effective, as usually only two wheels are being braked instead of all four.

I have ABS but was learned the engine brake way so now I don't really notice the ABS unless I'm pressing the brakes hard. I guess the wheels can lock during engine braking but at least it never happened to me.

Also I was taught if you start to skid is to 1) not brake but clutch and simply steer in the direction you want to go and 2) not press the accelerator unless the car is facing where you want to go (all 4 wheels are straight). Of course to be taking with a bit of salt depending on circumstances etc...

tomED

Shires wrote: »

Poor drivers? My E39 has been fine, not a bother.

Bring it down here to my estate and let's see you get it out, when you do you can get mine out too! PRETTY PLEASE! lol

bf

RWD Mr2 convertible hasn't really moved in the last week, although a lot of fun could be had with it in an empty industrial estate I imagine

ST Focus has been surprisingly well behaved!

tomED

Changed my mind - it's got to be a Ford Fiesta .... http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=232215734587 (will need a facebook account)

Flyer1

I'm driving the best car at the moment. 1.6d Mk2 Golf with snow tires on the front. Loads of grip.

Marlow

DublinWriter wrote: »

What is it will all the BMWs having problems?

Took me 5 minutes to clear Campells bridge yesterday in my 320D.

Maybe the fact I had ASC on didn't help?

copacetic wrote: »

Gnerally though you see a lot of RWD BMWs, Merc and Lexus struggle in this weather, no matter what the laws of physics apply. Poor tyres for the conditions + high power isn't a recipe for good results.

The power is not the problem, you just need to control yourself. I drive a BMW M5 (which is 400 bhp) and in general do quite well in this weather.

That is however a fact down to tyres !!!! and a good bit of weight in the boot. Couple sacks of coal or concrete do wonders to a RWD car, no matter how much power it outputs.

/M

Marlow

bf wrote: »

RWD Mr2 convertible

That might be RWD, but it has a middle-motor. Different animal to all the other RWD's entirely, because you've got the weight at the optimum spot: right in front of your rear axle.

The issue is not being FWD or RWD, the issue is where the weight in your car is. So FWD with engine in the front: good, RWD with the engine in the back or middle: good, RWD with the engine in the front: can be problematic.

Again, make sure you get enough weight on your driving axle and get decent tyres and you'll be fine .. mostly.

As mentioned earlier, all cars break equally bad, no matter if they are RWD, FWD or AWD.

I'd figure the convertible, unless you've got a hardtop, can be pretty cold.

/M

VolvoMan

alexlyons wrote: »

rescued the old man after he had to abandon his 5 series. said it was ridic, had to hit the curb to sop!

alexlyons wrote: »

eh I drive a polo

CharlieCroker wrote: »

Scariest thing I saw was a guy reving the nuts of an E92 M3 on Westminster Rd in foxrock, coming off the N11.

What's happening here?:D

I'd say the worst possible car you can have in these conditions is a two-wheel-drive Porsche 911 to be honest.

Marlow

VolvoMan wrote: »

What's happening here?:D

I'd say the worst possible car you can have in these conditions is a two-wheel-drive Porsche 911 to be honest.

Why ? The engine is in the back and it's a RWD.

/M

VolvoMan

Marlow wrote: »

Why ? The engine is in the back and it's a RWD.

/M

All the weight is in the back, making the car tail happy and having no grip at the front.

Marlow

VolvoMan wrote: »

All the weight is in the back, making the car tail happy and having no grip at the front.

That might have implications in regards to steering, but certainly the grip for getting going and for breaking using the engine is a lot better than in a lot of other cars.

/M

teednab-el

sanj2408 wrote: »

I have an Audi A4 FWD and fiance drives a BMW 318 RWD surprisingly the Beamer is easier to drive in this weather

I disagree, I find the A4 good compared to some of the other cars I have driven in this ice.

Sitec

I had to drive a Volvo Fh12 20 miles on Tuesday with no trailer. Traction control would actualy not let the Truck move from a stop! Turned it off and was spinning in 10th!

P.C.

Anan1 wrote: »

Engine braking was recommended in the days before ABS on the basis that it was more gentle and therefore less likely to lock the wheels. With modern ABS, though, that advantage is gone. Engine braking will usually work fine, but be a bit rough on a very slippy surface and it can easily lock the driven wheels, resulting in a slide. If that does happen then you need to accelerate to regain control, which for most drivers is counterintuitive. It's also less effective, as usually only two wheels are being braked instead of all four.

The only way that engine braking can lock the driven wheels is if the engine is off.

If the engine is running and the car is in gear, then the wheels will be turning.

peasant

P.C. wrote: »

If the engine is running and the car is in gear, then the wheels will be turning.

But not necessarily at the speed matching the velocity of the car

ianobrien

seamus wrote: »

Depends on the ABS. My car has ABS and so does my wife's and neither kick in unless you really slam on the pedal. If you brake lightly and the wheel locks, the ABS does nothing.

If the wheel locks, the ABS is not working right - Get it to a garage now.

ABS just stops locking the wheel under braking, and consequently allows max braking performance by stopping the wheels from locking. As the wheels are not locked under braking, you still have steering and can now steer around the obstacle.

Just a useless piece of info. On the ABS system, there are four wheel sensors that see if the wheel is not turning (ie locked) or if it is turning slower than the other wheels (about to lock). If the ABS brain sees that a wheel is locked or is about to lock, it reduces the pressure in the brake line to that wheel. As a result of the modulation of the pressure in the brake line, you feel the modulation as vibrations in the brake pedal.

Simple concept really, and seems to be widely misunderstood.

galwaytt

ianobrien wrote: »

If the wheel locks, the ABS is not working right - Get it to a garage now.....Simple concept really, and seems to be widely misunderstood.

indeed, except ABS only works above a certain road speed. It does not work at, say, walking pace, (which is about the speed on ice......)

sanj2408

teednab-el wrote: »

I disagree, I find the A4 good compared to some of the other cars I have driven in this ice.

No the A4 is fine its far better than a lot of other cars but the wheels on the BMW are much wider so i reckon thats why its that bit better.

Bulmers

BMW 320d...pure disaster, couldn't get up on the crack of dawn

tks to all the people who have pushed me in the last few days!!

awhir

tomED wrote: »

Changed my mind - it's got to be a Ford Fiesta .... http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=232215734587 (will need a facebook account)

that is possibly one of the funniest things i have ever seen.

galwaytt

VolvoMan wrote: »

I'd say the worst possible car you can have in these conditions is a two-wheel-drive Porsche 911 to be honest.

Actually, not. Rear wheel drive, with all the weight on the driving wheels under acceleration (towards the rear), means maximum grip. The throttle goes both ways, y'know......;)

Me ? 3.0 968 Tiptronic, near-perfect 50:50 weight distribution, automatic (so short-shifts by itself), not too-wide tyres (bog standard 205/55R15) - smaller than the std OEM ones on the 1.9diesel 9-3, outside.....and no issues with traction yet......:)

ianobrien

galwaytt wrote: »

indeed, except ABS only works above a certain road speed. It does not work at, say, walking pace, (which is about the speed on ice......)

Accepted the fact that the ABS doesn't work under certain speeds (I think it's 5kph om my car), but it was the sweeping generalization about the ABS that Seamus said that was wrong.

And for the speed needed for driving on ice. The road that I live on has a gentle incline. Over Christmas, it froze in one part where the incline was the worst. Those that drove at walking pace didn't make it up the hill, blocking the road. After turning the stopped cars and clearing the road, I decided to drive at 25 to 30kph and made it up no problems. That's just one example of where driving "slow (at walking pace) but steady" was the wrong thing to do!