What Are Our Alternatives To Irelands Mess??

Faithless

(Sorry for the following rant. I'd hope you read it and give me your thoughts.)

We have suffered like zombies because of blatant corruptness of the Haughey and Ahern years, wasting our opportunities and we need to get these wasters out! The Greens, by their total lack of integrity or honesty, their arrogant assumption that running a bike shop and teaching qualifies them for government and their subsequent subservience to their mongrel masters have eliminated themselves from any future consideration.

I don’t know what any of the opposition parties’ strategies are for the coming months but I hope to God they have some. Indeed, I think it is time that we demand that they develop and vigorously pursue them. Otherwise, FF and the Goryans will do what the senior party have been very successful at – nothing and getting away with it.

I have these priorities:

Lack of focus on unemployment. UNACCEPTABLE.
The state of healthcare. UNACCEPTABLE.
Lack of decisive leadership. UNACCEPTABLE.
Non-pursuance of delinquent bankers. UNACCEPTABLE.
NAMA. UNACCEPTABLE.
No inquiry into bank scandal. UNACCEPTABLE.
Current Ministerial performances. UNACCEPTABLE.

I believe it's an aspect of the post colonial nature of Irish society.
Political life in this country was based on going to a foreign centre of power and getting deals for your home place for a long time. With the sort of quasi-independence that happened in the 1920's there wasn't a huge change in the nature of power in Ireland, and to some extent there still hasn't been.

People must demand (through politics or force) direct democracy. Parliamentary and Presidential democracy have more than proved themselves vulnerable to the machinations of wealthy vested interests and by default they are corrupted.

A true democracy by the people and of the people is the only way forward, because good 'ole Ireland will still vote for the elected criminals using the following logic "Ah sure I see posters everywhere of him", all while the powerful business or church lobby and their ilk will be deferred too, because we all know that that's whats important in Irish society - the last thing that matters is the actual average Joe Soap trying to go about his law abiding life.

The fact is everything in this country has been neglected...everything - schools, roads, hospitals (be they medical or mental) by successive governments, be they FG or FF and LABOUR. We have a sewage and water system dating to the Victorian age, not to mention the basis of our legal system.

It's rotten to the core.

TEAR IT DOWN AND START AGAIN!

Kevin Bacon

Fair enough you could tear it down its a bit of a shambles at the moment....

But what do you suggest instead of our current capitalist society?

Faithless

Kevin Bacon wrote: »

Fair enough you could tear it down its a bit of a shambles at the moment....

But what do you suggest instead of our current capitalist society?

Well, I was asking for your views on it, Kevin.

OutlawPete

Faithless wrote: »

Lack of focus on unemployment. UNACCEPTABLE.
The state of healthcare. UNACCEPTABLE.
Lack of decisive leadership. UNACCEPTABLE.
Non-pursuance of delinquent bankers. UNACCEPTABLE.
NAMA. UNACCEPTABLE.
No inquiry into bank scandal. UNACCEPTABLE.
Current Ministerial performances. UNACCEPTABLE.!

Boards.ie registrars letting a cool name like Faithless go unregistered until now, also.. UNACCEPTABLE.

TheZohanS

Movd to Politics.

davyjose

Faithless wrote: »

(Sorry for the following rant. I'd hope you read it and give me your thoughts.)

We have suffered like zombies because of blatant corruptness of the Haughey and Ahern years, wasting our opportunities and we need to get these wasters out! The Greens, by their total lack of integrity or honesty, their arrogant assumption that running a bike shop and teaching qualifies them for government and their subsequent subservience to their mongrel masters have eliminated themselves from any future consideration.

I don’t know what any of the opposition parties’ strategies are for the coming months but I hope to God they have some. Indeed, I think it is time that we demand that they develop and vigorously pursue them. Otherwise, FF and the Goryans will do what the senior party have been very successful at – nothing and getting away with it.

I have these priorities:

Lack of focus on unemployment. UNACCEPTABLE.
The state of healthcare. UNACCEPTABLE.
Lack of decisive leadership. UNACCEPTABLE.
Non-pursuance of delinquent bankers. UNACCEPTABLE.
NAMA. UNACCEPTABLE.
No inquiry into bank scandal. UNACCEPTABLE.
Current Ministerial performances. UNACCEPTABLE.

I believe it's an aspect of the post colonial nature of Irish society.
Political life in this country was based on going to a foreign centre of power and getting deals for your home place for a long time. With the sort of quasi-independence that happened in the 1920's there wasn't a huge change in the nature of power in Ireland, and to some extent there still hasn't been.

People must demand (through politics or force) direct democracy. Parliamentary and Presidential democracy have more than proved themselves vulnerable to the machinations of wealthy vested interests and by default they are corrupted.

A true democracy by the people and of the people is the only way forward, because good 'ole Ireland will still vote for the elected criminals using the following logic "Ah sure I see posters everywhere of him", all while the powerful business or church lobby and their ilk will be deferred too, because we all know that that's whats important in Irish society - the last thing that matters is the actual average Joe Soap trying to go about his law abiding life.

The fact is everything in this country has been neglected...everything - schools, roads, hospitals (be they medical or mental) by successive governments, be they FG or FF and LABOUR. We have a sewage and water system dating to the Victorian age, not to mention the basis of our legal system.

It's rotten to the core.

TEAR IT DOWN AND START AGAIN!

Yeah, but ... the price of a pint came down 15 cent!!!

kev9100

Faithless wrote: »

Well, I was asking for your views on it, Kevin.

Yeah, but the whole point of Boards ( I think ) is that you have to have an opinion yourself.

OutlawPete

kev9100 wrote: »

Yeah, but the whole point of Boards ( I think ) is that you have to have an opinion yourself.

Does he not do that in his original post??

Kevin Bacon

Faithless wrote: »

Well, I was asking for your views on it, Kevin.

Well generally your supposed to give your own in the first post, no offence but it rambles a bit.

Anyway,

Faithless wrote: »

Political life in this country was based on going to a foreign centre of power and getting deals for your home place for a long time.

This will always be the way of a small nation as ourselves. Going to foreign nations and "getting deals" as you call it , foreign direct investment, i think you mean, is the only way we can further development, were just not that big of a country to support a fully indigenous economy.

Faithless wrote: »

People must demand (through politics or force) direct democracy. Parliamentary and Presidential democracy have more than proved themselves vulnerable to the machinations of wealthy vested interests and by default they are corrupted.

Vested interest is a problem in ever society whether its capitalist, communist or whatever. No amount of shake up of our government will achieve that as the next bunch will do the same, power corrupts and all that jazz. It would be naive to think otherwise.

Faithless wrote: »

A true democracy by the people and of the people is the only way forward.

We have that every man and woman over 18 has a vote, how could it get any more democratic?

Faithless wrote: »

The fact is everything in this country has been neglected...everything - schools, roads, hospitals (be they medical or mental) by successive governments, be they FG or FF and LABOUR. We have a sewage and water system dating to the Victorian age, not to mention the basis of our legal system.

Yep, they sure have.

So in summary were stuck with are lot, vote for someone else next time. Revolution is never going to happen we're not a nation of oppressed people we've just got it a bit bad at the moment.

kev9100

OutlawPete wrote: »

Does he not do that in his original post??

Well to me he seems to have alot of opinions on what is wrong with the country but he offers no solutions. He strikes me as someone who loves to complain but cant come up with any ideas to improve the situation.

ninty9er

The options:
A) Sit on the dole
Get on with life and pull your weight for recovery
C) Get the **** out and let the rest of us get on with getting the countyr back on track

I'm sick of all of this "what are our alternatives" shite. The government has taken it's decisions, if you don't like them, tough, If you want to hamper recovery by pulling against them then I suggest you get lost and let someone else do your job.

^^
Not aimed at any particular poster, I'm just sick of this crap.:mad:

Sand

@ninty9er

The government has taken it's decisions, if you don't like them, tough, If you want to hamper recovery by pulling against them

Oh those who want to hamper recovery dont need to rouse themselves. Fianna Fail & the Greens have gotten the whole road to ruin aspect of our future covered by themselves.

Shea O'Meara

ninty9er wrote: »

I'm sick of all of this "what are our alternatives" shite. The government has taken it's decisions, if you don't like them, tough, If you want to hamper recovery by pulling against them then I suggest you get lost and let someone else do your job.

^^
Not aimed at any particular poster, I'm just sick of this crap.:mad:

To be honest, suggesting anyone unhappy with the way things are should leave is bulls***. It's an old Fianna Fail philosophy. If people leave because they fancy a change of scenery fine, if they leave because their country is in a mess and they've little other option, that's a shame on Ireland. By Ireland I mean the scumbag self serving politicians and us ejits who voted them in or never bothered voting in the first place. It's usually Fianna Fail who suggest emigration as a solution to a mess they made. What a cop out. Your country isn't a club you decide to leave because the chairman's an arsehole, it's your home.

Since when is hampering recovery pulling against a bunch of corrupt incompetent f***wits?

Fianna Fail should do us all a favour and f*** off to the caymans or where ever they keep their stash.

ninty9er

Lots of people don't agree with Obama's methods, but now that they've been set out, his country is getting behind those methods. If they don't work then, it's Obama's fault, but if the people don't row behind and start pulling in all different directions, it's nobodys fault but their own that they didn't at least give it a try.

Shea O'Meara

I believe they imprision fraudsters in Obama land, not promote them.

Kevin Bacon

Lot of giving out in threads like this but any idea of a solution or change is never suggested.

We could vote for FG and Labour (or god forbid Sinn Fein) for the next election and get out the current government. And what would they do? The exact same as FF and Greens. NAMA would remain regardless, the economic situation would be approached the same way and matters of unemployment and healthcare would remain because we got no money.

End of really, the only thing there is left to do is get the head down and try and power out of this recession. No point whining about it that helps no one or placing the blame here, there and yonder.

What winds me up is since the begin of this whole clusterf*ck thats all the media,FF, FG, Labour Greens and SF seem to do. Why can't they come together on the matter and leave aside the political bull****. Thats the real change needed in the short to medium term.

They're politicians... its their job to play the game of politics, not actually care about the country and the people in it...

ninty9er

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

I believe they imprision fraudsters in Obama land, not promote them.

There were many questions over Ted Kennedy. Like it or not, Irish politics is not half as corrupt as people make out, nor does that corruption that does exist live in an international vacuum.

Kevin Bacon

Deleted User wrote: »

They're politicians... its their job to play the game of politics, not actually care about the country and the people in it...

Unfortunately that will be always true. I always said the person who wants to run the country the least is the one who should run it because anyone who actively wants power that much is the wrong person for the job. Maybe that could be our new approach to politics.

Shea O'Meara

Okay

Kevin Bacon wrote: »

Lot of giving out in threads like this but any idea of a solution or change is never suggested.

We could vote for FG and Labour (or god forbid Sinn Fein) for the next election and get out the current government. And what would they do? The exact same as FF and Greens. NAMA would remain regardless, the economic situation would be approached the same way and matters of unemployment and healthcare would remain because we got no money.

God forbid Sinn Fein. No real opposition...You hear this all the time. All of these parties claim they will do things differently. So why not let them try? Why carry down a path sign posted by the corrupt people who are responsible for a lot of the mess we find ourselves in?
As for NAMA; demand banks give loans to small business, demand banks go easy on low income mortgage payers, give them a breather.

Kevin Bacon wrote: »

End of really, the only thing there is left to do is get the head down and try and power out of this recession. No point whining about it that helps no one or placing the blame here, there and yonder.

Fianna Fail and chums, no here there and yonder.

Kevin Bacon wrote: »

What winds me up is since the begin of this whole clusterf*ck thats all the media,FF, FG, Labour Greens and SF seem to do. Why can't they come together on the matter and leave aside the political bull****. Thats the real change needed in the short to medium term.

Fianna Fail are the ones who ran roughshot into knee jerk fixes without paying any heed to other parties. If anyone is guilty of not banding together it's the current government leadership. The Dail should be the forum, but it's pretty much a case of Fianna Fail telling all the other parties, this is the way it's going to be, with limited debate.
They are like little brats who know they messed up, but are putting on a front and seeing any real open debate with the opposition as an admission of failure, so they simply won't do it. In closing, they need to go.

Kevin Bacon

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

God forbid Sinn Fein. No real opposition...You hear this all the time. All of these parties claim they will do things differently. So why not let them try? Why carry down a path sign posted by the corrupt people who are responsible for a lot of the mess we find ourselves in?

I can't see what FG or Labour would do differently if you know what there planning please enlighten me. Is Enda Kenny infailable with no vested interest? Doubt it. FF and FG are both in the center politically they would take the same approach as far as i'm concerned. As for Sinn Fein or the socialistic party or whatever, this guys have never been in such positions of power do you think they would know what there doing at all? Sinn Fein have a united ireland as their main agenda. Them boys need to stop the pie in the sky dreaming and get a proper mandate together.

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

As for NAMA; demand banks give loans to small business, demand banks go easy on low income mortgage payers, give them a breather.

NAMA was a bold choice by any means. Particularly the price the paid for the loans the recieved.(Way over valued). However it had postive effects on bank share prices. Before you go saying "ahh yeah more money for bankers", the fact of the matter is confidence is being restored in the Irish banking system which is what we need at least globally to get things moving. Whether you like it or not banks are an integral part of any economy and they need to be kept going. Look at Iceland and the craic there having right know after the banks went bust. As for small business, well its going to have to wait. Cruel both hopefully NAMA can fast track this once it comes into action. Wait and see i suppose.

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

Fianna Fail and chums, no here there and yonder.

Well I actually meant Fianna Fail, Greens, PDs, Banks encouraging 100% and above mortgages, reluctance of Irish investors (from the largest to the smallest) to invest in nothing other then bricks and mortar, tax revenue not being spent on adequate infrastructure and facilities when we had it (low tax rates ain't going to keep the FDI coming forever), bloated public services you could go on, don't get me wrong here I'm not defending FF.

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

Fianna Fail are the ones who ran roughshot into knee jerk fixes without paying any heed to other parties. If anyone is guilty of not banding together it's the current government leadership. The Dail should be the forum, but it's pretty much a case of Fianna Fail telling all the other parties, this is the way it's going to be, with limited debate.
They are like little brats who know they messed up, but are putting on a front and seeing any real open debate with the opposition as an admission of failure, so they simply won't do it. In closing, they need to go.

Well if you look at my previous post I do mention Fianna Fail (FF) as well as the other parties. FG and the like engage in squabbles as much as the next guy. The're no angels by any means. Knee jerk decisions maybe but who's to say NAMA doesn't turn out alright. Yeah many of such projects are a joke with are government. But could turn out like CAB (a much copied approach to organised crime in other states based on our system) or as much as everyone hates the sight of them, Revenue. It's doubtful but you know don't write it off just yet, at least give it a chance.

fuelinjection

Sinn Fein and Fianna Fail.
Sinn Fein would put manners on the current Fianna Fail Goiverment and we stop having to worry about stupid "green issues" which mean nothing in a recession. Gormley in particular is getting on my nerve ... like everyone in Ireland should live 5km from work and cycle into work ... the wife-swaping idiot live in a dreamworld.

I believe Sinn Fein are much closer to voters and grass roots (local) issues than any of the oter crowd. Fianna Gael are led by muppets who would tax and run this country into the ground (again) so they protect their posh voters and Labour are a joke ... knew a girl that was with their Labour Women and she agreed they were "champagne socialites". So out of touch they are against strikes.

Anyway better the devil you know with 26 county politics ... I remember the SDLP approched Fianna Fail to ally with them and FF said no. They chose Sinn Fein as they said "they are our people". Just because they were so well organised locally and not some stupid global warming guilt party.

kev9100

fuelinjection wrote: »

I believe Sinn Fein are much closer to voters and grass roots (local) issues than any of the oter crowd. Fianna Gael are led by muppets who would tax and run this country into the ground (again) so they protect their posh voters and Labour are a joke ... knew a girl that was with their Labour Women and she agreed they were "champagne socialites". So out of touch they are against strikes.

Eh..... right. I`m not sure what your on about to be honest. If SF are the closest to the voters then how come they only received 4 seats in the last election? That does`nt sound like a party that the public has much trust in to me.

Secondly, you say that FG would tax the country into the ground. Are you serious? Do really want to make the case that SF is the party of fiscal responsibility? Get real. The day we trust our finances with Mary Lou Macdonald is the day we really are in the ****.

fuelinjection

kev9100 wrote: »

Eh..... right. I`m not sure what your on about to be honest. If SF are the closest to the voters then how come they only received 4 seats in the last election? That does`nt sound like a party that the public has much trust in to me.

Secondly, you say that FG would tax the country into the ground. Are you serious? Do really want to make the case that SF is the party of fiscal responsibility? Get real. The day we trust our finances with Mary Lou Macdonald is the day we really are in the ****.

Well it's the transfers that hit Sinn Fein. If you were involved in politics you would know that , their "first preference vote" of 10%" means nothing when transfers are accepted.
I love Sinn Fein as the only 32 county party, and a real change to current Irish Government but I am aware they suffer from the lack of voting transfers in some parts of Ireland/Dublin.

We will see what changes are made from recent economic Fianna Fail mess and the fact that people want something else. Ireland has more than the "Mary Lou" vote, and Sinn Fein were never going to be Kings in an election but Kingmakers ... Labour run at 14% and consider themseleves the next Government for Christ sake.

Overheal

davyjose wrote: »

Yeah, but ... the price of a pint came down 15 cent!!!

You guys talk about Pint Prices like we talk about Gas Prices

Kevin Bacon

fuelinjection wrote: »

Well it's the transfers that hit Sinn Fein. If you were involved in politics you would know that , their "first preference vote" of 10%" means nothing when transfers are accepted.
I love Sinn Fein as the only 32 county party, and a real change to current Irish Government but I am aware they suffer from the lack of voting transfers in some parts of Ireland/Dublin.

We will see what changes are made from recent economic Fianna Fail mess and the fact that people want something else. Ireland has more than the "Mary Lou" vote, and Sinn Fein were never going to be Kings in an election but Kingmakers ... Labour run at 14% and consider themseleves the next Government for Christ sake.

Dont think personally that Sinn Fein are a viable party in the south. The fact that they see a 32 county agenda as something of pressing importance no matter what the situation economical just tells me they are just not clued in with the concerns of southern voters. I never heard of voting transfers being used as an excuse by any other party, they all work in the same voting structure everyone is faced with the same, its not like they have been picked out unfairly.

Labour will be looking at partnership with FG thats why they consider themselves to be in the running for government.

Liam Byrne

ninty9er wrote: »

I'm sick of all of this "what are our alternatives" shite. The government has taken it's decisions, if you don't like them, tough, If you want to hamper recovery by pulling against them then I suggest you get lost and let someone else do your job.

Echoes of the famous Ahern quote there!

The government has taken wrong decisions that are not in the public interest.

We - as the people who pay them - are perfectly entitled to point this out.

Of course, that doesn't matter in Ireland, because they'll keep doing what they're doing regardless, and will tell people to "get lost"; that's how arrogant they are.

"hamper recovery" my arse!

I'm working for about half my previous wages at the mo, and I'm trying to keep going and not go onto the dole, even though I might actually get more if I was on it.

saol alainn

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Echoes of the famous Ahern quote there!

The government has taken wrong decisions that are not in the public interest.

We - as the people who pay them - are perfectly entitled to point this out.

Of course, that doesn't matter in Ireland, because they'll keep doing what they're doing regardless, and will tell people to "get lost"; that's how arrogant they are.

"hamper recovery" my arse!

I'm working for about half my previous wages at the mo, and I'm trying to keep going and not go onto the dole, even though I might actually get more if I was on it.

Well put.

I, for one, hate it when people ‘attack’ each other, we are all in the same boat, etc. etc. And while I’m of the opinion that we, as people in Ireland, should do our share of what needs to be done, I’m also of the opinion that people have a right to stand up and accuse the government of incompetence. The way things are developing, it seems it is more incompetent than anyone thought. Sometimes I feel sorry for Cowen, everything seems to be going wrong on his shift, but he did put his hand up for the job and is also responsible for some of the mess, considering he was Minister of Finance during the ‘boom’. So my sympathy does not last long. Especially after last night. First it was the recession "it was unprecedented", now it's the cold weather, "unprecedented." As for the rest of the government, I really cannot find the words to describe their performance, or lack of. I’d advise people to stand behind the government and give their ‘post-tiger’ policies a chance, but with each passing day, it’s more difficult to say such a thing.

Everyone knows that politicians are the same, whichever party they represent. Self-serving, egotistical, delusional, wannabe gods. But that, in itself, is not a reason why anyone should dismiss other parties. They are walking all over the populace precisely because they know that people will just say “sure, aren’t they all the same? What’s the use?” But at least if another party is voted in, they may get the message that when they don’t measure up, they’re out. OTOH, the people should make it clear that they will not stand for a repeat performance, by whomever. Like the OP, I don’t know enough about the oppositions’ policies and ideas to form a solid opinion and it may not be the best of times for a change of government at this moment, but I sure hope people are starting to at least consider a change. While in the meantime, telling their representatives what it is they want to see, or at least what they don’t want to see.

bangersandmash

fuelinjection wrote: »

Sinn Fein would put manners on the current Fianna Fail Goiverment and we stop having to worry about stupid "green issues" which mean nothing in a recession.

The above sounds remarkably familiar. Weren't the Greens meant to put manners on FF, and the PDs before them? That worked well.

Substitute "green issues" for a United Ireland as the junior partner's impractical hobby horse, and at best we'd have exactly what we have now. More likely we'd have an even more economically inept and morally bankrupt government.

kev9100

fuelinjection wrote: »

Well it's the transfers that hit Sinn Fein. If you were involved in politics you would know that , their "first preference vote" of 10%" means nothing when transfers are accepted.

That 10% figure merely shows that that they have a very loyal base. The lack of transfers shows SF that, outside certain areas, have very little support
.

Kevin Bacon

kev9100 wrote: »

That 10% figure merely shows that that they have a very loyal base. The lack of transfers shows that SF that, outside certain areas, they have very little support.

Reminds of a story of their lack of support "at grass roots". Two SF reps came into a pub I was drinking in one night looking for donations. First of all are you f*cking serious looking for donations? We don't live in the north during the troubles for f*ck sake.

Anyway the funneist part is it was at home in offaly, around the time of the last general election, in Cowen's local pub. Did they really think there was going to be any SF supports in that pub?:rolleyes:

Pretty drunk so told them to pretty much f*ck off. She calls me a "soft republican" and starts going on about Jim Larkin. What does he have to with Sinn Fein? I would never vote for someone who has reps as clueless as that.