Homeless man in ennis sleeps in a tent during the cold spell

firesidechat

This is the life of Josef Pavelka, a Czech national who came to Ireland to work a number of years ago. Josef and his friend Piotr Baran, a Polish national who has lived in Ireland for four years now, also came here to work and up until recently, he too was sharing this tent in sub-zero conditions.
While Piotr has secured accommodation for the time being, his friend has been left to the elements. He has no money and no entitlements, despite having worked here. He has no food has only a tent and a duvet to keep him warm during these freezing temperatures.
Unfortunately for Josef, alcohol has caused many problems for him, but that is not a reason to write him off claims local woman Josephine O’Brien, of the HELP homeless organisation.
Josephine befriended Josef and Piotr and heard the story of how they came here and how ended up losing out on social welfare because of language difficulties.
“They have no chance of getting anything. Saint Vincent de Paul can only give them vouchers for a B&B but the B&Bs won’t take him. Piotr has been here for four years and both of them did work in this country. They can’t get social welfare unless they have an address and are in the system. Josef is in the system but because of the language barrier, we don’t know if he is entitled to something and because he has no address, he can’t get anything. They are human beings and they shouldn’t be homeless, especially in this cold. The simple fact is he will die if he doesn’t get indoors. He’s essentially being left there to die,” she said.
“Josef has stayed in a tent since Sunday night. We went down to him today and the tent was frozen, even the clothes in the tent were frozen. He has had no food. I spoke to the Red Cross but there’s nothing more they can do. Piotr got a place to stay on Monday but Josef has been living there since Sunday night and before Christmas up until December 23, the two were living there. The Red Cross gave them the tent and sleeping bags but before that, they had been living in bushes and had been out in the elements. They would also be in and out of hospital as Josef is in bad health,” she explained.
Pamela Burke, a resident in Spanish Point, kindly took Josef and Piotr in over Christmas for 12 days and both got on great while they were there.
“I’m so glad that I did take them in now. Clare FM ran an ad and I heard it as I was driving home before Christmas; it said these two men had nowhere to stay. I happened to have a house in Spanish Point that was vacant during that period so I contacted the Irish Red Cross. I really didn’t know what to expect or what I was getting myself in for but Josef and Piotr stayed there for nearly two weeks. I brought them their meals and they didn’t touch a drop of alcohol. It just broke my heart that they were out there over Christmas and I hate to see it now.
“They were no trouble and are two of the nicest guys you could meet. They were no problem and the house was spotless afterwards. It is purely misfortunate and it’s just so sad to think that they’re out there living in a tent. It’s just crazy and it’s upsetting that there’s nowhere to look after them,” Ms Burke said.
Shirley Benson of the Irish Red Cross in Clare told The Clare Champion, they had tried to help Josef and Piotr.
“We gave the two of them a tent and duvets which we lined with foil hypothermia blankets. People think they’re alcoholics, that they’re a nuisance, that they’re dangerous and there’s a not-in-my-back-yard attitude out there. They’re petty criminals but people must realise that this is thieving out of necessity.
“They have no money, they have no food and unfortunately, they have issues with alcohol. Now that Piotr has a place, he has been off the drink and is doing very well, but Josef is in need of long-term residential care and that costs. It would cost €3,000 to get on a programme in Ennis at Bushy Park.
“The fact that they are foreign nationals has not helped their situation and there is only so many entitlements that they could get because of that. The issue is that there is no emergency fund for the homeless, nothing available for people like Josef and Piotr who have fallen through the cracks. If you can’t get the dole and you have no relatives no money, no friends to help you, how do you get out of that situation? You don’t, you die,” Shirley said.
She explained that in order to get social welfare entitlements, Piotr and Josef need to have spent 36 weeks in continuous employment within a 52-week period and they also need to have a fixed abode.
“Piotr is a qualified printer and he came here legitimately to work, as did Josef. Our main problem with trying to help Josef is the language barrier. He has very little English so it is extremely difficult to find out information about where he worked and about his situation,” she said.
Shirley also advises those who see someone who’s homeless and would like to help, not to give them alcohol.
“People are under the misapprehension that alcohol will actually help warm someone who’s homeless but in fact, it just dehydrates a person and if people want to help do not give them alcohol or money, food or a hot drink is what they need,” she said.
The Red Cross and HELP are anxious to speak with anyone who would be able to help as a translator, which would aid in gathering information that might lead to some little bit of assistance for Josef. They would also like to hear from anyone who would be willing to help put a roof over Josef’s head.

2010 in Ireland.
This is inhumane treatment .

dh0661

These two guys would be much better off / happier in their home land.

Clareman

Not at all dh0661, he is a printer who has poor English, I wouldn't imagine there'd ever be much work here for him

firesidechat

Because they have alcohol problems, if they are sent home the polish government policy is to meet them at the airport and bring them straight to an insane asylum. They cannot claim benefits here because when they were working their boss did not pay any stamp for them.
Catch 22 situation.
Either way. It is inconceivable that we as a modern society , continue to let them sleep outdoors during this severe weather.
The homeless shelter cannot accept them because they are not on benefits.

Teadrinker

Josephine was on the Gerry Ryan Show earlier this week and outlined this sad tale in detail. She knows that if the two men want to be repatriated they can ask the HSE to set it in motion and that they will be helped to contact a central office in Dublin which will give funding for their repatriation.

It is mentioned in the story that they need help from a Polish translator to help these two men. There are thousands of Poles in the Mid-West. As recently as this November, less than two months ago, the Polish Community held a Polish festival at the Georgian House & Garden, No 2 Pery Square, Limerick. The Irish Polish Cultural and Business Association in Limerick organised it and in news stories at the time, the Limerick Leader mentioned a Ms. Justyna Cwojdzinska as being a member of the Association in Limerick. The Leader journalists would possibly have contact details for her and would be happy to let her know of the dire need of two of her countrymen for help through translation. The Association has a website www.irelandpoland.com

If they can't be contacted then surely

The Embassy of the Republic of Poland
5 Ailesbury Road
Ballsbridge
Dublin 4
Tel:01 283 0855
Fax:01 269 8309

• E.Mail:info@dublin.polemb.net

would be able to put HELP and The Red Cross in touch with some of the very many Polish people who live in this area and who would be able to help with translation for these two men.

If clear communication can be established for them, it might be a first step. Of course, it may come too late.

The awfully sad fact is that for people on the margins who find themselves in the River Fergus, there will be a helicopter, numerous fire engines and Garda cars and dingys and cranes deployed to rescue them within a few minutes and I don't imagine they ask the person if they fulfill the habitual residency requirement or have enough credits before they are rescued. What makes this situation any different?

drunken_munky52

dh0661 wrote: »

These two guys would be much better off / happier in their home land.

Just think of the millions of Irish that ended up homeless in other countries after they left Ireland with the best of intentions AND all alcoholics by culture.

I hope this statement and the thanks you got from the other two isn't a hint of redneck snobbery, is it?

Rujib1

Any offers of accomodation and help coming in from the Polish community in Ennis?

drunken_munky52

And it is terrible to think that human beings spent their christmas without a roof over the heads. It is shocking that this has been allowed to take place, because most of us are too self obsessed and moaning about the weather and economy to give a sh!t. In the old days if this happened the community would rally together to help these poor unfortunates. That spirit in gradually disappearing in Ireland as the elders continue to die off, taking with them their morals and humanity.

firesidechat

One of them has found housing as of this evening, The other lad will not be sleeping outdoors either ,people have offered him shelter on a day by day basis.
An interpretator was also found for them this evening.
All these arrangements are temporary and at some stage in the future a solution has to be found to help these men.

Clareman

drunken_munky52 wrote: »

Just think of the millions of Irish that ended up homeless in other countries after they left Ireland with the best of intentions AND all alcoholics by culture.

I hope this statement and the thanks you got from the other two isn't a hint of redneck snobbery, is it?

When Irish people went abroad they mainly went to countries where they spoke the language (Britain, America or Australia) or at least went in enough numbers that they setup their own communities (Argentina), they also found work wherever possible building a lot of infrastructure that is still in place today. I'm sure you could go to most countries around the world and you would find a large number of down and out Irish people living on the street

Melion

Came to Ireland "a number of years ago" and still cant speak English? Who gives a fúck if he is sleeping in a tent? Plenty of irish people in Limerick sleeping rough in this weather, nobody is offering them houses etc to stay in. If its such an issue, why doesnt he go back home where he, no doubt, has family and friends who would look after him.

Melion

firesidechat wrote: »

All these arrangements are temporary and at some stage in the future a solution has to be found to help these men.

There are still flights from Shannon to get them home.

firesidechat

Melion.
I hope the day never comes for you where you may be in need of
a handout, You will find it very hard to swallow those words.
And never say it won't happen to you , No one know what fate
lies waiting for us.
I'm sure this is all a pose and deep down you actually do have compassion
for your fellow man.

Clareman

firesidechat wrote: »

Melion.
I hope the day never comes for you where you may be in need of
a handout, You will find it very hard to swallow those words.
And never say it won't happen to you , No one know what fate
lies waiting for us.
I'm sure this is all a pose and deep down you actually do have compassion
for your fellow man.

I think there's a difference between having compassion and having unconditional compassion, there are 2 people who haven't worked for 70% of their time here, haven't learnt the language and don't have any ties here, they have an option to go home, where at least they know the language which will be an improvement immediately, whereas I do feel sorry for the people affected, there are people from Ireland having difficulties all over the world and at home, I would prefer to have these people looked after first, then we can turn to fixing the worlds problems

firesidechat

CLAREMAN

I do hope the homeless advocates in the UK do not share your views.
If so, hundreds of irish citizens will be sleeping outdoors tonight on the streets of london and many other cities.

the bolt

firesidechat wrote: »

CLAREMAN

I do hope the homeless advocates in the UK do not share your views.
If so, hundreds of irish citizens will be sleeping outdoors tonight on the streets of london and many other cities.

the proofs down the west end in the nobody zone as a well known paddy used to say:rolleyes:

drunken_munky52

Melion wrote: »

Came to Ireland "a number of years ago" and still cant speak English? Who gives a fúck if he is sleeping in a tent? Plenty of irish people in Limerick sleeping rough in this weather, nobody is offering them houses etc to stay in. If its such an issue, why doesnt he go back home where he, no doubt, has family and friends who would look after him.

It doesn't matter, just becuase you find Irish homeless also in Limerick, its easy for you turn turn around and say "fcuk these homeless guys, they aint irish", so what are you going to do for the irish homeless? > Nothing, becuase youve clearly shown you dont care about a person's welfare at first sight, so why should you care about anything? And just becuase they dont speak English does not mean they are more deservant of living in conditions not fit for an animal.

Dr Kamikazi

Lovely attitude from some people here.
If someone sleeps rough do we let them die because some people deem them unworthy?
If so, why not go a step further and also weed out people who may not sleep rough, but maybe are a burden to society because they can't look after themselves because of mental/physical handicaps?
Start with foreigners of course, then the homeless, the handicapped and finally, because we want to get the race as pure as possible, anyone who doesn't fit the criteria for perfection.
We tried it once in Germany, it was not a total success and be careful not even to start thinking that sh1t, because it's a slippery slope from there and very thin ice.
So the next time you see someone sleeping rough and think "why doesn't he just f*ck off and die" or "wouldn't he be better off somewhere else", just imagine in your mind the gas hissing out from the showerheads and the roar of the crematorium.
You're already halfway there...

Joey the lips

As a direct worker with the SVP if the accomadation will not take the vouchers then the svp in the area should be told. The SVP should and i imagine would refuse to buy the vouchers anymore.

palaver

I just read that in Germany already ten homeless people died because of the freezing cold, and I mean really freezing, up to -20 C. I don't know any numbers from other countries, but in very cold winters there are always people dying of the cold, the homeless first, the poor, the old, the sick next. It's not only an Irish problem.

But imagine to be in a foreign country without speaking the language or having any social network, no money, no home, no nowt. I don't even dare to imagine it, might fall into a deep depression. I think in such cases help is probably more urgent than for those who know the system, who know how to get help - perhaps/hopefully.

And you, who wonder why he doesn't speak the language, should remember that not only the literate and educated come to Ireland to try to make a living. Those usually know how to look after themselves, methinks. Someone who never had the chance of an education, just works as a labourer, probably exploited, without any social security, might never had the chance to learn English by speaking, that is socialising - either because he couldn't afford socialising or because the locals couldn't be bothered to try to talk to someone who doesn't speak the language. And such people are usually the first who lose their jobs. Everywhere in the world. And the first to die - lonley.

mikemac

firesidechat wrote: »

They’re petty criminals but people must realise that this is thieving out of necessity.

firesidechat wrote: »

there’s a not-in-my-back-yard attitude out there.

Hmmm.
And then they wonder people are nervous about them hanging around their area?

I wouldn't wish anyone to be outside in this cold. But maybe the best option is give a small sum of money and free flight home.
The interpreter and their embassy can maybe sort out benefits for them when then return.
Until surely there is emergency accommodation somewhere in Clare. Or maybe not, the interpreter can find this out

firesidechat

There lies the problem.
No emergency shelter is available whatsover for these two lads.

Teadrinker

From BBC news website, Tuesday, 22 Dec 09

"...At least 42 people have frozen to death in Poland over the last three days and another 27 in Ukraine... In Poland, police appealed for people to help if they came across homeless or drunk people lying outside, as temperatures dropped towards -20C in some areas.
Most of the 42 people who froze to death in the country over the weekend were homeless, police said.
Meanwhile, one restaurant owner offered tens of thousands of homeless people a hot meal in Krakow's main square.
"The food is not the only important thing," restaurateur Janusz Kosciuszko was quoted as telling Euronews.
"What is also important is that these people know that someone is thinking about them."

Frightening reading. Tens of thousands of homeless in one city. No wonder they left. Fair dues to those helping them.

firesidechat

Piotr has been placed in the SVP shelter in ennis earlier this evening.
Josef, who was staying with me tonight has just been offered shelter in
the SVP accomadation. He is been picked up shortly.

Let's hope this is not temporary and they get the help that they need.
They are two charming charactors and let's hope this experience scared the bejasus out of them and that they not take any of this for granted.
They also have some life changing decisions to make.

Sundew

firesidechat wrote: »

CLAREMAN

I do hope the homeless advocates in the UK do not share your views.
If so, hundreds of irish citizens will be sleeping outdoors tonight on the streets of london and many other cities.

From somebody who regularly visits the U.K. I was born there and my parents lived and worked there for years, I can vouch there are many Irish still living there who would be happier in Ireland . For various reasons they choose to live there. Some have drank for years, have been abused by their "Irish bosses" and are living in squalor. I see them down my Dad's old Irish club when I pop over! It can happen to anybody and of course drink (which us Irish are famous for) doesn't help.
I hope these men get get the help and support they need ,be it from their own community or Irish community as countless Irish got in the U.K and U.S in years gone by. It's usually folks who havn't lived and worked abroad have these thick gob****e views :mad:

palaver

firesidechat wrote: »

Josef, who was staying with me tonight has just been offered shelter in
the SVP accomadation. He is been picked up shortly.

Fair play to you!
I was going to ask what YOU are going to do about it, since you were so high-horsed about it. I apologise for this assumption.

I once did offer a Polish guy to stay at my place. He came to see friends over here who happened not to be at home. It was winter, though the usual Irish winter, mild but not warm enough to sleep rough. He was very reluctant because he thought I would ask for money for accommodation. Silly him. Once he came into the house he was the perfect gentleman: made coffee and quietly served it in my study, looked after faults and bits in the house and such like. He could teach my bf some things or two..
But then I knew him faintly from before and I knew his friends so I was confident having him in the house.

But as a woman living on my own I would be very careful to invite a man into my house I absolutely don't know.

Sundew wrote: »

It's usually folks who havn't lived and worked abroad have these thick gob****e views :mad:

Agree!
And not only that, but people whose horizon just stops at the garden fence.

eddiehobbs

firesidechat wrote: »

They’re petty criminals but people must realise that this is thieving out of necessity.
“

I have met piotr before and agree that he is harmless but alcohol is not a necessity.

First of all fair play to those that have helped them and the many other homeless on our streets. I agree that it is terrible that they are on the streets and that there should be a place for them to stay but i have to say if i was in the same situation in a foreign country, homeless, unable to speak the language etc i would jump at the chance of a flight home to where i could begin to rebuild my life again.

There is no future for them in ireland and I feel the would have a much better chance back in their home countries.

CptSternn

They could go to their embassy, or ring it even, and get a free flight home.

The fact they want to stay when there is no work, they don't speak the language, and have a drinking problem shouldn't be our problem.

Should Ireland put up all alco's from across the globe who come here and don't speak the language or work because they are drunk all the time?

It would be one thing if they had a family and were just out of work, but they 'were working' and what? Spent all their money on drink and now want everyone else to support them?

I'm all for supporting anyone who needs help, if they are willing to help themselves. Coming to a country where you don't speak the language, not working, getting sloshed and pissing away every opportunity given to you does not entitle you to a free ride.

I moved to Clare six years ago. I busted my arse doing whatever work I could find just to pay for a room in the hostel, for nine months. I lived on about €15 a week and never claimed social welfare even though I could have. Today I work, have a house (I rent) and a family I support. No one gave me anything, and I never asked for it. I also sure as **** did not piss away the small amount of money I did have on drugs and/or alcohol. If I had, then I would have gotten myself back on the plane and fecked off back to where I came from.

firesidechat

CptSternn wrote: »

They could go to their embassy, or ring it even, and get a free flight home.
(If they accept the freee flight home they face been committed to an asylum upon their return. While many eastern european countries are in the process of modernising there infrastructures, I dont think their asylum 's would be anywhere near acceptable standards.Ther is no time limit on the lenght of stay they would have to endure.)

The fact they want to stay when there is no work, they don't speak the language, and have a drinking problem shouldn't be our problem.
Should Ireland put up all alco's from across the globe who come here and don't speak the language or work because they are drunk all the time?

It would be one thing if they had a family and were just out of work, but they 'were working' and what? Spent all their money on drink and now want everyone else to support them?

(All members of european countries are entitled to come here and work .
Members of certain eastern european countries must have at least 38 weeks of stamp paid before they can claim any benefits from the state.
If they work here and become unemployed they are entitled to draw on their stamps, The very same system applies for irish citizens working abroad in any other european country.Both of these men had employement in ireland and were making a life for themselves as do the majority of foreign nationals. Unfortunatly the employees of these two men DID NOT contribute psri monies for them ,As required by law.
It has in fact been proven that these men were working as they had stated. Once they became unemployed there were no benefits available to them .)

I'm all for supporting anyone who needs help, if they are willing to help themselves. Coming to a country where you don't speak the language, not working, getting sloshed and pissing away every opportunity given to you does not entitle you to a free ride.


(As to there drinking problem, Well there is no denial on there part that indeed they do have a problem with alcohol. It is not for us to judge any individual on there illness or on their strenghts and weakenesses.
Ther are thousands of irish people also with addictions who will not accept help for their problems.)

I moved to Clare six years ago. I busted my arse doing whatever work I could find just to pay for a room in the hostel, for nine months. I lived on about €15 a week and never claimed social welfare even though I could have. Today I work, have a house (I rent) and a family I support. No one gave me anything, and I never asked for it. I also sure as **** did not piss away the small amount of money I did have on drugs and/or alcohol. If I had, then I would have gotten myself back on the plane and fecked off back to where I came from.

(good for you. Obviously you have been successful in your quest to make a life in clare and fair play to you, But please dont be so fast to judge those that are not as fortunate as you are.)

palaver

In Poland, nine people died in a 48-hour period, bringing the total weather-related deaths to 139 since the start of November, a police spokesman said. Most of the victims were homeless people.

Maybe they are better off over here ...

Teadrinker

CptSternn

The immediate issue of these two lads, their alcohol problem notwithstanding etc., was that they were, or one of them anyway, without a roof over the heads and sleeping out in subzero temperatures and unable, because of language difficulties, to communicate properly. You have survived a difficult situation yourself, and good for you, but you may not have survived it as intact as you think if a human being at risk of freezing to death does not concern you. You may live an upstanding life yourself, working hard etc., but horrors can come to your door in a second, not that I wish them on anyone. You can find yourself out of work. Kids, despite parents' best efforts, can go astray into drink or drugs. Illness happens, including mental illness. These things are beyond people's control and sometimes, like these lads, we can find ourselves at the mercy of others. Noone is talking about offering a haven to the alcoholics of other countries. Just a lad in a tent over in Lifford in the freezing cold.