Why do you believe in God and in Islam?

philologos

I'm genuinely curious about two things. These two questions are the questions that I get asked the most by skeptics in the Christianity forum and other fora where I discuss God on boards.ie.

These are big questions, and I am not going to goad anyone for answers. I am genuinely curious.

1) Why do you believe that God exists?
2) Why do you believe Islam is the truth?

I ask this in respect, and I thank you for the privilege of being able to find out more.

Zaynzma

Jakkass wrote: »

I'm genuinely curious about two things. These two questions are the questions that I get asked the most by skeptics in the Christianity forum and other fora where I discuss God on boards.ie.

These are big questions, and I am not going to goad anyone for answers. I am genuinely curious.

1) Why do you believe that God exists?
2) Why do you believe Islam is the truth?

I ask this in respect, and I thank you for the privilege of being able to find out more.

It wasn't intellectual arguments that persuaded me that God exists, and no intellectual arguments have ever come close to persuading me that God doesn't exist.

I have believed in God, believed that I had a Creator who is accessible to me in a spiritual dimension, for as long as I can remember. It wasn't a case of anyone telling me there is this being who is God, and it was new information to me. If anyone had told me there wasn't a God, now THAT would have seemed bizarre.

My mother didn't go to mass every Sunday, hardly at all as I remember, but she did believe in God though not in any devoted way as far as I know. My grandmother was very religious and prayed a lot (not only to God but to various saints and the virgin Mary). She tried to get us to go to mass every week (she couldn't leave the house herself) but mass didn't interest me, I never felt God's presence there, no matter how much I implored "Lord graciously hear us". I went to a convent school and had all the usual indoctrination without any attempt at explanation ("it's a Mystery") and a brick wall if you tried to ask a question. I made my communion (no idea what that was about, can't even remember them telling us we would be eating God's flesh and drinking His blood, I'm sure I would have remembered that). I made my confirmation at 11 because that was expected of me, everybody did - it hardly seemed even a religious thing to me, there was little or no connection for me with the God I prayed to. It seems odd looking back, why wouldn't I make a stand and say "this isn't God as I know Him" but it was a question of feeling entirely alone in my beliefs. There was some conflict of ideas at home as my older sister was studying the bible and was able to show how it was at odds with catholic doctrines (she believed passionately in the bible but not catholicism). My older brother meanwhile was a militant athiest. I argued with my sister not from a point of view of defending catholicism but questioning the stuff in the bible like the misogyny and the slaughter. It was interesting, all that discussion and I enjoyed it. I was completely ignorant of other non-bible religions at that stage. I believe that kids study other religions in secondary school now, but we certainly didn't then (early 80s).

I studied the bible myself, in my teens and twenties and rejected it due to the mistakes, contradictions, insertions, and also the descriptions of God (ordering the slaughter of children for example). I read a lot, from different points of view - Christian, Muslim, Athiest, Jewish, Messianic Jewish.

It took quite a while from my first encounter with Islam to actually make the decision to take the shahada. I went to London when I was 18 and came into contact with people of non-christian faiths for the first time. I bought my first quran when I was 20 and didn't convert till I was nearly 30. Gradually I realised that all the questions I had previously had about christianity were fully answered by Islam. A couple of examples:

Q. How could sin be inherited? A. it isn't
Q. Why is it necessary for an innocent man to die a horribly painful death in order for God to forgive our sins? (terribly unjust)
A. It isn't, God forgives sins without the need of blood sacrifice.

If you ask me how I became a Muslim, the simple answer is that God guided me - after I had prayed fervently for guidance and for a way to Him.

I am a Muslim because I believe in monotheism, and the Islamic concept of God is the only one that makes total sense to me and also which concurs with what I have always believed about God ever since I can remember. It has the ring of absolute truth.

God has no partners, no son, no mother, He alone is our creator and when I stand before Him in worship there is nothing between me and Him, no priest or saint or angel. I worship only Him and pray only to Him, no saint or angel has any authority or power to answer my prayers. And nobody's blood can wash away my sins, God freely forgives sin according to His knowledge of our hearts.

philologos

Zaynzma - I'm not looking to get into an argument about why Christianity is false. I highly disagree with much of what you have said naturally.

I want to know why people believe in God, and why people end up believing in Islam rather than not believing at all.

If you want some answers that I have for some of the points you have made that I find disagreeable. I can, but that isn't why I posted this.

Just because one thinks they have discredited Christianity does not make Islam more likely or more reasonable.

The Recliner

Ok I have deleted some posts that were off topic

The OP didn't come here to attack Islam so there is no need to discuss the merits or otherwise of his choice of faith

Please stick to the topic, there are other threads and forums for discussing the various religions

antiskeptic

Zaynzma wrote: »

It wasn't intellectual arguments that persuaded me that God exists, and no intellectual arguments have ever come close to persuading me that God doesn't exist.

I have believed in God, believed that I had a Creator who is accessible to me in a spiritual dimension, for as long as I can remember. It wasn't a case of anyone telling me there is this being who is God, and it was new information to me. If anyone had told me there wasn't a God, now THAT would have seemed bizarre.

My mother didn't go to mass every Sunday, hardly at all as I remember, but she did believe in God though not in any devoted way as far as I know. My grandmother was very religious and prayed a lot (not only to God but to various saints and the virgin Mary). She tried to get us to go to mass every week (she couldn't leave the house herself) but mass didn't interest me, I never felt God's presence there, no matter how much I implored "Lord graciously hear us". I went to a convent school and had all the usual indoctrination without any attempt at explanation ("it's a Mystery") and a brick wall if you tried to ask a question. I made my communion (no idea what that was about, can't even remember them telling us we would be eating God's flesh and drinking His blood, I'm sure I would have remembered that). I made my confirmation at 11 because that was expected of me, everybody did - it hardly seemed even a religious thing to me, there was little or no connection for me with the God I prayed to. It seems odd looking back, why wouldn't I make a stand and say "this isn't God as I know Him" but it was a question of feeling entirely alone in my beliefs. There was some conflict of ideas at home as my older sister was studying the bible and was able to show how it was at odds with catholic doctrines (she believed passionately in the bible but not catholicism). My older brother meanwhile was a militant athiest. I argued with my sister not from a point of view of defending catholicism but questioning the stuff in the bible like the misogyny and the slaughter. It was interesting, all that discussion and I enjoyed it. I was completely ignorant of other non-bible religions at that stage. I believe that kids study other religions in secondary school now, but we certainly didn't then (early 80s).

I studied the bible myself, in my teens and twenties and rejected it due to the mistakes, contradictions, insertions, and also the descriptions of God (ordering the slaughter of children for example). I read a lot, from different points of view - Christian, Muslim, Athiest, Jewish, Messianic Jewish.

It took quite a while from my first encounter with Islam to actually make the decision to take the shahada. I went to London when I was 18 and came into contact with people of non-christian faiths for the first time. I bought my first quran when I was 20 and didn't convert till I was nearly 30. Gradually I realised that all the questions I had previously had about christianity were fully answered by Islam. A couple of examples:

Q. How could sin be inherited? A. it isn't
Q. Why is it necessary for an innocent man to die a horribly painful death in order for God to forgive our sins? (terribly unjust)
A. It isn't, God forgives sins without the need of blood sacrifice.

If you ask me how I became a Muslim, the simple answer is that God guided me - after I had prayed fervently for guidance and for a way to Him.

I am a Muslim because I believe in monotheism, and the Islamic concept of God is the only one that makes total sense to me and also which concurs with what I have always believed about God ever since I can remember. It has the ring of absolute truth.

God has no partners, no son, no mother, He alone is our creator and when I stand before Him in worship there is nothing between me and Him, no priest or saint or angel. I worship only Him and pray only to Him, no saint or angel has any authority or power to answer my prayers. And nobody's blood can wash away my sins, God freely forgives sin according to His knowledge of our hearts.

An interesting post for someone whose never considered how a muslim becomes a muslim! Three things spring to mind:

1) Fleeing from Roman Catholicism might be expected to result in the person arriving at non-Roman Catholic Christianity more than it should cause someone to arrive at Islam. I say this because..

2) Whilst contrasts have been drawn between Islam and Roman Catholicism the complimentaries or common ground between them is ignored. It is true that Roman Catholicism has mediators between God and man (priest, Mary) and I take it that the poster represents Islam accurately when he/she says there are no mediators between God and man. However, Roman Catholicism says that a man gains God's favour and ultimately, salvation, via his good works - via "what he does" in other words. Which, if I am not mistaken, is something that Islam teaches too.

This is a pretty major point of harmony between those two systems ... surely? The very relationship between God and man is one which is heavily dependent on a man doing what it takes to please God - and both Islam and Roman Catholicism (along with other works-based religions) share common ground.

3) You object to forgiveness through Christ's blood shed. However, the concept of forgiveness always involves the person offended against paying the price of the offence themselves. You cannot say to your friend who acts the goat and breaks your laptop: "I forgive you - now pay for my laptop" No, no .. if you forgive your friend fully then you must pay for the laptop. (You can of course partially forgive: your friend pays for a new laptop but you forgive the hassle of doing without for a week and having to spend time loading up all your software onto the new unit)

Christianities Christ is God. And Christianities Christ on a cross is God paying the price of the offence against God. Paying the price so that forgiveness can take place. For without paying for the offence yourself, you are not in a postion to be issuing forgiveness.

So, how does Islam provide for forgiveness. How does Allah pay for the offence committed against him, himself?

irishconvert

antiskeptic wrote: »

An interesting post for someone whose never considered how a muslim becomes a muslim! Three things spring to mind:

1) Fleeing from Roman Catholicism might be expected to result in the person arriving at non-Roman Catholic Christianity more than it should cause someone to arrive at Islam. I say this because..

2) Whilst contrasts have been drawn between Islam and Roman Catholicism the complimentaries or common ground between them is ignored. It is true that Roman Catholicism has mediators between God and man (priest, Mary) and I take it that the poster represents Islam accurately when he/she says there are no mediators between God and man. However, Roman Catholicism says that a man gains God's favour and ultimately, salvation, via his good works - via "what he does" in other words. Which, if I am not mistaken, is something that Islam teaches too.

This is a pretty major point of harmony between those two systems ... surely? The very relationship between God and man is one which is heavily dependent on a man doing what it takes to please God - and both Islam and Roman Catholicism (along with other works-based religions) share common ground.

3) You object to forgiveness through Christ's blood shed. However, the concept of forgiveness always involves the person offended against paying the price of the offence themselves. You cannot say to your friend who acts the goat and breaks your laptop: "I forgive you - now pay for my laptop" No, no .. if you forgive your friend fully then you must pay for the laptop. (You can of course partially forgive: your friend pays for a new laptop but you forgive the hassle of doing without for a week and having to spend time loading up all your software onto the new unit)

Christianities Christ is God. And Christianities Christ on a cross is God paying the price of the offence against God. Paying the price so that forgiveness can take place. For without paying for the offence yourself, you are not in a postion to be issuing forgiveness.

So, how does Islam provide for forgiveness. How does Allah pay for the offence committed against him, himself?

Where are you getting this concept about having to pay a price for sinning? Is this something in the bible? That concept doesn't exist in Islam. Allah refers to himself as the most forgiving so many times in the Qur'an. If one commits a sin and repents sincerely and doesn't commit the sin again, it is very possible that Allah wil forgive the sin. The Qur'an states the only sin Allah will not forgive is worshiping others apart from him.

I agree with you that people ignore the similarities between Islam and Christianity. As a born Catholic and convert to Islam, I can see so many similarities. In saying that it is the differences which are very important and what let me to choose Islam over Christianity.

ChocolateSauce

I would say that in the vast majority of cases, a person believes in their faith because it is the faith their parents believed in; in otherwords, a geographical fluke.

People like Irishconvert who have made a decision to reject their parent's faith and take up another are in a blisteringly small minority (switching between factions within a faith notwithstanding).

antiskeptic

irishconvert wrote: »

Where are you getting this concept about having to pay a price for sinning? Is this something in the bible?

I'm getting this concept from the meaning of the word "forgiveness" as understood by the dog in the street (as it were). If I'm to forgive someone an offence against me then I don't simply cause the offence to vanish into thin air, I have pay an associated price. The example given was:

offence: my friends carelessness breaking my laptop.

price: my paying my money for a new laptop. Alternatively, I can live without my laptop and pay for the offence in that fashion.

forgiveness: I'm able to ensure that my friendship remains unaffected/uninterrupted. My friend suffers nothing at all for his offence: not money, not my ire, not my making him know I had to fork out.

Without my paying a price there can be no forgiveness in this case. And so, I was asking about the mechanism Allah utilises to pay for the offence against him. He's entitled to extract and eye for an eye for the offence (just as I'm entitled to demand my friend pay for a new laptop). If he choses not to demand payment then the offence doesn't just vanish into thin air. Not with man, not with God.

That concept doesn't exist in Islam. Allah refers to himself as the most forgiving so many times in the Qur'an. If one commits a sin and repents sincerely and doesn't commit the sin again, it is very possible that Allah wil forgive the sin.

Isn't this conditional forgiveness? I'll forgive you if ...

The Qur'an states the only sin Allah will not forgive is worshiping others apart from him.

The Bible states God forgiving even this...

The only sin God can't forgive is the sin of refusing to be forgiven. God can't because if overrulling a God-given will then he'd be destroying that God-given will. Which would be to somehow say he'd made a mistake.

Which God can't of course do.

I agree with you that people ignore the similarities between Islam and Christianity. As a born Catholic and convert to Islam, I can see so many similarities. In saying that it is the differences which are very important and what let me to choose Islam over Christianity.

Is there a difference that could be more essential that the very means whereby a person gains rightstanding before God/Allah? In this, Roman Catholicism and Islam are identical - you achieve it by what you do/how you behave.

Conditional forgiveness in other words.

antiskeptic

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

I would say that in the vast majority of cases, a person believes in their faith because it is the faith their parents believed in; in otherwords, a geographical fluke.

People like Irishconvert who have made a decision to reject their parent's faith and take up another are in a blisteringly small minority (switching between factions within a faith notwithstanding).

I'd see the differences between Roman Catholicism and Islam as minor-detail-only (given the means whereby man achieves rightstanding with God/Allah - a most central and vital issue - is in identical in both systems, in essence)

Whereas the difference between Roman Catholicisms salvation-by-work is about as chalky as one can get in comparison to t'other factions salvation-by-faith-alone's cheese