water problem HELP PLEASE

poindexter

hi there. the hot water was working fine then it just stopped, would'nt come through any of the taps in the house. i checked the toilets and they wouldn't flush. then only the water in kitchen was coming on. checked up in attic and water in the tank was frozen, so i burst through it and now there are only small bits of water left. the area in the tank which leads to pipes was frozen thick with ice so i boiled the kettle and melted that away. the sink is now blocked in an upstairs toilet.

hot water boiler is on continuously, a moment ago i had a spurt of hot water from one of the upstairs sinks.

what can i do to make this better????? how do i get the water back into the tank in the attic?????


thank you

truthisfree

Turn your immersion off immediately. Your pipes are frozen. Try a hair dryer to defrost them but they may be frozen outside, very likely. If the water does come back on and your immersion is still on it will implode. once it is turned off and cooled down it should be all right.

poindexter

truthisfree wrote: »

Turn your immersion off immediately. Your pipes are frozen. Try a hair dryer to defrost them but they may be frozen outside, very likely. If the water does come back on and your immersion is still on it will implode. once it is turned off and cooled down it should be all right.

i've never moved so quick as i did there when you said turn immersion off immedately

if frozen outside then i really just have to wait til they defrost then or is there anything else i can do???

jimzy

i think so, im not sure you can do anything about pipes that are frozen underground.
Unfortunately its a matter of waiting this one out.

My water went a week ago, I never realised how much we rely on water, and how much we take it for granted!
also, you must have a nice esb bill with the immersion on 24/7!?

poindexter

jimzy wrote: »

i think so, im not sure you can do anything about pipes that are frozen underground.
Unfortunately its a matter of waiting this one out.

My water went a week ago, I never realised how much we rely on water, and how much we take it for granted!
also, you must have a nice esb bill with the immersion on 24/7!?

cheers man
the esb bill is ok, saves me i think doing it this way as am no turning immersion on and off all the time which am sure costs more. it's always on, and if i need hot water it's always there.

Lex Luthor

Have you still got cold water in your kitchen sink tap? If so, read here

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=63871499&postcount=7

poindexter

Lex Luthor wrote: »

Have you still got cold water in your kitchen sink tap? If so, read here

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=63871499&postcount=7

cheers for that post. i'm out tonight and possibly for the weekend, so won't get that done til sunday or monday :mad:

what one piece of advice would be best suited for me just now???

i've turned off immersion
i've put insulation all round the tank


should i turn off water at stop cock/coming into the house???

patrickthomas

poindexter wrote: »

cheers for that post. i'm out tonight and possibly for the weekend, so won't get that done til sunday or monday :mad:

what one piece of advice would be best suited for me just now???

i've turned off immersion
i've put insulation all round the tank


should i turn off water at stop cock/coming into the house???

Better off to leave it alone, probably frozen and metal fragile in this cold. Sorry for giving you a fright but if the water had come in again it would have damaged your immersion irreparably.

Keeping your immersion on 24 hrs is wise as it costs less to run, the jacket will help with economy but unfortunately not the frozen pipes. Just got to join the rest of us that are relying on buckets and bottles for water.

Pete67

I'm not sure I agree with the 'urgent' requirement to turn off the immersion. What is the logic here? If the mains supply freezes then the tank in the attic cannot fill and will get used up, but the hot water cyclinder will not be emptied. As long as the the immersion thermostat is working the the cylinder to continue to maintain it's temperature which might help prevent further pipes from freezing. Of course, you will not be able to use any of the hot water, as it it needs the presssure of cold water from the roof tank to push it out and into the hot water distribution pipes to the sinks and bath etc.

truthisfree

Pete67 wrote: »

I'm not sure I agree with the 'urgent' requirement to turn off the immersion. What is the logic here? If the mains supply freezes then the tank in the attic cannot fill and will get used up, but the hot water cyclinder will not be emptied. As long as the the immersion thermostat is working the the cylinder to continue to maintain it's temperature which might help prevent further pipes from freezing. Of course, you will not be able to use any of the hot water, as it it needs the presssure of cold water from the roof tank to push it out and into the hot water distribution pipes to the sinks and bath etc.

The immersion can drain empty even with the upstairs tank empty, depends on a lot of factors, but I have seen it happen, which side would you err on?

The Guy has frozen pipes, why take the risk of having an immersion implode?

Pete67

The immersion can drain empty even with the upstairs tank empty, depends on a lot of factors, but I have seen it happen, which side would you err on?

The Guy has frozen pipes, why take the risk of having an immersion implode?

Just trying to understand the logic. What is the mechanism for the implosion? Implosion implies the generation of a vacuum inside the hot water cylinder. How would this be formed? I can think of only one mechanism - the cylinder boils, the cold water supply and vent are somehow blocked, maybe frozen, and then the cylinder cools and the steam collapses and creates a vacuum leading to collapse of the cylinder. This scenario would require failure of multiple safety devices, and also bad installation. The chances are slim to zero.

Unless the cylinder is installed incorrectly it cannot be emptied without deliberately opening a drain valve. Even if it did empty (extremely unlikely) the worst that could happen is that the heating element may burn out through overtemperature. However it is protected by a thermostat.

What will happen if the immersion is left on is that the thermostat in the immersion element will sense the water temperature as it always does, and switch the immersion heater on and off to maintain setpoint. It's no different to leaving it on and using no hot water for a few days. The heat from the hot cylinder will also help to prevent further frost damage.

truthisfree

Pete67 wrote: »

Just trying to understand the logic. What is the mechanism for the implosion? Implosion implies the generation of a vacuum inside the hot water cylinder. How would this be formed? I can think of only one mechanism - the cylinder boils, the cold water supply and vent are somehow blocked, maybe frozen, and then the cylinder cools and the steam collapses and creates a vacuum leading to collapse of the cylinder. This scenario would require failure of multiple safety devices, and also bad installation. The chances are slim to zero.

Unless the cylinder is installed incorrectly it cannot be emptied without deliberately opening a drain valve. Even if it did empty (extremely unlikely) the worst that could happen is that the heating element may burn out through overtemperature. However it is protected by a thermostat.

What will happen if the immersion is left on is that the thermostat in the immersion element will sense the water temperature as it always does, and switch the immersion heater on and off to maintain setpoint. It's no different to leaving it on and using no hot water for a few days. The heat from the hot cylinder will also help to prevent further frost damage.

Multiple safety devices, not really, domestic plumbing is fairly simple.
OK, Immersion left on, Tank frozen, possibly expansion pipe frozen (not necessary, gravity will do this too) water expands, tap opened, water comes out and stops. Immersion continues to heat water, creates steam = pressure this can push rest of water in immersion out of tap that is usually left on when a person discovers no water or when someone else turns it on. Tank empty or partially empty, when the cold water comes in the reduction in pressure is faster than the incoming water.

I am working from the practice to the theory here, I have a feeling you are working from the theory to the practice, we will meet in the middle and agree.:)

There is an emergency thermostat built into the element that heats, pretty crap one at that, usually clicks on and off a few times and fails at off, as it should. The main thermostat should keep working properly (in theory) but are notoriously sensitive to this happening and do not always fail on the low temperature side as they should. (I know!)

The reality is that most domestic plumbing is a far cry from the plumbing in your car, if your car runs out of water it will damage the engine if you continue to power it.

There are very advanced plumbing systems similar in many ways to a cars plumbing with an expansion bottle and many built in safety valves but I was not going to get into 50 questions and answers with the guy as I did not have time.

Damm, I should have told him to check his header tank for his heating system, no major problem, will just end up with rads being cold on the top as water runs low.

poindexter

truthisfree wrote: »

Multiple safety devices, not really, domestic plumbing is fairly simple.
OK, Immersion left on, Tank frozen, possibly expansion pipe frozen (not necessary, gravity will do this too) water expands, tap opened, water comes out and stops. Immersion continues to heat water, creates steam = pressure this can push rest of water in immersion out of tap that is usually left on when a person discovers no water or when someone else turns it on. Tank empty or partially empty, when the cold water comes in the reduction in pressure is faster than the incoming water.

I am working from the practice to the theory here, I have a feeling you are working from the theory to the practice, we will meet in the middle and agree.:)

There is an emergency thermostat built into the element that heats, pretty crap one at that, usually clicks on and off a few times and fails at off, as it should. The main thermostat should keep working properly (in theory) but are notoriously sensitive to this happening and do not always fail on the low temperature side as they should. (I know!)

The reality is that most domestic plumbing is a far cry from the plumbing in your car, if your car runs out of water it will damage the engine if you continue to power it.

There are very advanced plumbing systems similar in many ways to a cars plumbing with an expansion bottle and many built in safety valves but I was not going to get into 50 questions and answers with the guy as I did not have time.

Damm, I should have told him to check his header tank for his heating system, no major problem, will just end up with rads being cold on the top as water runs low.

check my what???? Jesus the two of you have me pulling my hair out here
am not back home for a couple of days, please God the house is still standing

truthisfree

poindexter wrote: »

check my what???? Jesus the two of you have me pulling my hair out here
am not back home for a couple of days, please God the house is still standing

Leave your hair in, you will need it in the cold! Because you have no water your central heating uses water from another small header tank in the attic, this can run low and it will not harm your heating system, the first sign of this will be the rads being cool at the top and hot at the bottom, you can top up this header tank by hand, it's not big. A gallon of water at most is all you need to top it up.

Any idea what type of heating system you have?

poindexter

truthisfree wrote: »

Leave your hair in, you will need it in the cold! Because you have no water your central heating uses water from another small header tank in the attic, this can run low and it will not harm your heating system, the first sign of this will be the rads being cool at the top and hot at the bottom, you can top up this header tank by hand, it's not big. A gallon of water at most is all you need to top it up.

Any idea what type of heating system you have?

don't have a clue mate, and wouldn't know where to begin looking. was hoping for a bit of a that, but more snow coming down now has put paid to that.

poindexter

have left a tap dripping all evening, now turned it off and after a few minutes water starts filling the cistern in the toilet, popped my head into the attic and can hear it filling the tank which am guessing is a good thing.

what should i do now??? turn the tap back on and keep it dripping during the night??

the sink in the bathroom, it still not draining water though, whats going on there??

10-10-20

You'll be fine from here on in. It seems there is a thaw on, so the pipes can only improve.
You may have an air lock or two, so it may require that you give it time, or post another thread up later today if it remains.
Consider checking the insulation in the arctic (attic ) when you can and insulate the pipework with foam. Ensure there is no insulation under the main water tanks and insulate around them.