The message and the messenger.

studiorat

With all the talk of criticizing the post not the poster lately. Something has occured to me...

The conspiracy theorist mindset. It's a classic case of ignoring the message because of the messanger. It is my view that the conspiracy theorist in fact feels disenfranchised from the society as a whole. Hence they will have issue with all the facts presented by members of that society.

The "government" tells us something, and because the person disagrees with that "government" as a system or it's members, they automatically try to disprove any facts presented by that government. Despite the evidence being there, they will create arguments simply for the sake of disagreeing with that pov. To the extent that they will make the most irrational claims simply to oppose the "mans" point of view.

digme

That tends to happen when your talking with non conformists.It's not their fault they have no exposure to such daily goings on,most people don't,but you have to understand the cs mindset are a lot more curious than your average joe soap,which in turn makes them stand out like a nail,which a lot of people feel needs to be hammered down and put back into it's place.
No better person to do that then the highly conformist type mindset,you know the type,good at maths in school,always at the top of the class telling the teacher who did what,delighted when in the classroom amongst their peers,not so delighted when out in social gatherings.

So when cs mindset hears something from rigidly conformist person,he pays no attention,and why should he?After all they were the ones who were the tell tale tacklers teachers pets in school.

studiorat

digme wrote: »

So when cs mindset hears something from rigidly conformist person,he pays no attention,and why should he?After all they were the ones who were the tell tale tacklers teachers pets in school.

Why should he? For the very reason I posted the op. To examine the facts not the deliverer. For the most these facts do not come from the "conformist" only through them.

Also in my experience as both student and teacher the "non-conformist" is as likely to be the one who is a good student and pays attention. Surely the CT'er is "telling as many tales" btw.



Something else has also struck me. I wonder just how many of these CT'ers have ever been out on a march or have any input into the community at all? It would seem to me that the CT merchant is as likely to be happy trawling the net for fantastic stories, and be uncomfortable in groups.

I love a good conspiracy theory, but SELDOM do I believe the actual stories, it's a fantasy game plain and simple. The object of the game being to prove or disprove the CT.

Either some people are either very good at playing the game or else they actually think it's true.

Slugs

Something else has also struck me. I wonder just how many of these CT'ers have ever been out on a march or have any input into the community at all?

How many "normal" people do you know that have ever been out on a march and have any input into the community?

digme

The cs crowd don't really care about facts,just look at the person delivering them.You articulated it yourself quite well actually and I thought I elaborated on it a bit.

In my own experience as a child in school,where as adults tend to cop on as they age,the class goody two shoes and teachers pets are highly conformist from the word go.

Most of this comes from your school days, not your college days, where people are not babysat and are left to their own initiative to learn and pass their tests, as opposed to your mammy, and daddy, and your teacher climbing down your throat.You won't get a report card from college so it is up to you and you alone to use your time wisely while your there.
So then comes adult life and talking about cs theories,it's nice to be able to talk about things without having facts which you always hated in school anyway.But the hightly rigid conformist always like facts and these ae the ones who will GIVE them to you for consumption.

ps stop editing your posts as your making me type more than one post also.

studiorat

Slugs wrote: »

How many "normal" people do you know that have ever been out on a march and have any input into the community?

Hmmm! That's a good question.

I couldn't begin to guess about activism, but quite a few? I think if people get a hold of something they actually do care about most people will act.

As for input into the community, well that's what most people do in some form or other. That is the norm.

It would seem to me that the CT'er distances themselves. Perhaps I mean the cronic CT'er. "Why should I help the Lizzards" so to speak.

digme

studiorat wrote: »

Something else has also struck me. I wonder just how many of these CT'ers have ever been out on a march or have any input into the community at all? It would seem to me that the CT merchant is as likely to be happy trawling the net for fantastic stories, and be uncomfortable in groups.

I love a good conspiracy theory, but SELDOM do I believe the actual stories, it's a fantasy game plain and simple. The object of the game being to prove or disprove the CT.

Either some people are either very good at playing the game or else they actually think it's true.

They don't actually need to feel the urge to prove it untrue or not, that's the difference,unless it's from the highly conformist.See where i'm going with this?You could say that the majority of the news is a fantasy game,after all it is highly twisted and turned to suit a certain agenda is it not?
If the news media wanted the masses to believe in ufo's they could do so quite easily,they've don't it with worse.

Slugs

I understand where you're coming from but in today's society, as it has been in the past, non conforming has always been met with ridicule, or if you want to go further back into the past, death.

There're are numerous reason's and arguments I can think of but I'll just highlight one. Let's take a very basic conspiracy. Global warming. Now as we can see with copenhagen and the current Cold snap, this is a huge topic in the media and government. And the general consensus is that this is something that needs to be dealt with. Media is behind it, government's are behind it, education systems are showing that it's a new threat. Now look at the people who've criticised the global warming belief, they're being called deniers. They're being put in the same boat as people who dispute statements of the Holocaust. People who're very rational thinking, open-minded people are being called "deniers". Now you explain to me how a CTer is meant to react to that? By being involved in a community that really isn't there thing? By trying to help a system that's broken? By taking action against a government that would swat them away like flies?

Torakx

its quite interesting to see a second post from the same person in a week about how "CT'ers" are.
do we need to put everyone in a box? are all "CT'ers" the same?

i agree there is a trend with every stereo type.but not all people fit into each box you try to create for them.i did not post i think in the other thread because it was not of any interest.but since you persist in slating a stereo type i may aswell waffle a bit

yes people can be extremely closed minded when you try to explain to them what is obvious.......but i dont hold it against the skeptics hehe.(joke!)
it may have seemed i was talking about the CT "side" and rightly so if you feel you are on the opposite.
i dont see myself on a side unless i am pushed by someone i then sometimes give in to immaturity and respond as if have a strong conviction about a theory.
alot of people do this.
mostly i am a fence sitter and will probably stay like that until god or aliens appear before me and prove me right.

there is some very good reasons why alot of people do not trust a single word coming out of the mouth of a government official.
you know the story about the boy who cried wolf im sure.
if someone needs me to show/prove to them why they should be extremely wary of a politicians motives i would like to remind you that the political system that the majority of people bend knee to,is the same one that caused most of the suffering on this planet.

Please explain to me why anyone should have faith in a person working for that systems continuity?

i have indeed lost my faith in this system that rules us.i think that is a very reasonable response considering the time they have had to prevent war,famine,terrorism etc


It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives. It is the one that is the most adaptable to change.
Charles Darwin

just thought that quote was fitting if looked at alongside mans social evolution.

mysterious

studiorat wrote: »

With all the talk of criticizing the post not the poster lately. Something has occured to me...

The conspiracy theorist mindset. It's a classic case of ignoring the message because of the messanger. It is my view that the conspiracy theorist in fact feels disenfranchised from the society as a whole. Hence they will have issue with all the facts presented by members of that society.

The "government" tells us something, and because the person disagrees with that "government" as a system or it's members, they automatically try to disprove any facts presented by that government. Despite the evidence being there, they will create arguments simply for the sake of disagreeing with that pov. To the extent that they will make the most irrational claims simply to oppose the "mans" point of view.

No, The mainstream and public accept everything first hand and official, like your told to believe everything you hear and learn in school and society. But awareness, hindsight and basic cop on will tell you there is a lot of cracks, lies, deception and holes in the power system. This is the point you need to understand and accept. Conspiracy theorists are not delusioned to be against the government in any irrational way. They are questioning the information brought forward by leadership they dont feel they trust given the presentations most of our leaders and democracy present today. Complete hypocrisy, opposite of fair leadership and flawed democracy. People have a right to question things. The odd thing is anyone who question authority is someone who is then labelled a crack pot, Conspriacy theorist. I find this is so is because the powers of be are more threatened by these people than anyone else.

When you starting taking charge of your own mind and using it as a way of learning to figure things out yourself, this then shows your incharge and on the ball.


You come up against people who are not aware and completley brainwashed by the power of be, because they dont own their minds, and in this reason they will attack you without realising it, because you own your own mind and they dont because they believe everything they were thought growing up.


It's like a friend told me once.

"There are two things that never existed in Ireland and that is the Celts and tigers".

But we tend to believe everything that is written is true regardless of how much truth and lies there is to it. The power system does not want anyone to own their own minds.


BTW you can't label people into one group and thats a very irrational thing to do and it makes your post completely hypocrtical. You drill these threads, on relgious forums, open minded forums, paranormal forums. You say anyone that doesnt follow the mainstream is a crackhead or pothead. What I'd like to know why do you bother and worry so much what other's beleive?

RoboClam

studiorat wrote: »

With all the talk of criticizing the post not the poster lately. Something has occured to me...

The conspiracy theorist mindset. It's a classic case of ignoring the message because of the messanger. It is my view that the conspiracy theorist in fact feels disenfranchised from the society as a whole. Hence they will have issue with all the facts presented by members of that society.

If I'm honest, I think most skeptics are guilty of this too. If I see any CT, I instantly don't believe it and set out to disprove it. However if a skeptic on this forum made a post, I'd more readily accept it (I'd still look into it of course).

So, I guess in my own mind I am approaching every CT post with a dash of "ad hominem". I tend to ignore (or at least disregard) the message because of the messenger.

I'm betting many skeptics are the same.

IrelandSpirit

There's much double-speak here from self-professed sceptics, me thinks. I mean spouting on about how scientific they are, how they have this supposed superior objective view of reality, but scepticism is not the same as repeating official or mainstream views. In essence, a conspiracy theorist offers an alternative to the official view, an alternative narrative. So in trying to ridicule people by using the official narrative as a way of 'proving' theories wrong, you're only upholding the old mainstream view and are not being a sceptic.

The very definition of a truth seeker is a sceptic. We try not fall into the trap of just swallowing everything the government says, and then regurgitating it wholesale. That's the job of their propagandists.

Considering this is a CT forum, there's a noticeable lack of alternative views to the mainstream coming from so-called sceptics.

Edit: This is not directed at any particular forum members, just general observation.

digme

IrelandSpirit wrote: »

There's much double-speak here form self-professed skeptics, me thinks. I mean spouting on about how scientific they are, how they have this supposed superior objective view of reality, but skepticism is not the same as repeating official or mainstream views. In essence, a conspiracy theorist offers an alternative to the official view, an alternative narrative. So in trying to ridicule people by using the official narrative as a way of 'proving' theories wrong, you're only upholding the old mainstream view and are not being a skeptic.

The very definition of a truth seeker is a skeptic. We try not fall into the trap of just swallowing everything the government says, and then regurgitating it wholesale. That's the job of their propagandists.

Considering this is a CT forum, there's a noticeable lack of alternative views to the mainstream coming from so-called skeptics.

What he said.

mcmoustache

Like roboclam said above, i also look at the messenger before the message. I do this because there are some posts that I have to dismiss out of hand and some posters make only post like that.

For example, if the post is telling other posters that they are brainwashed and have their head in the sand, I ignore it. If it ignores logic, science and common sense, I ignore it. If it mentions or sounds like or links to David Icke or Alex Jones, I ignore it. If the tone is alarmist, I'm not going to waste my time. That might sound like narrow-mindedness but it's not. There are proper conspiracies out there that need to be investigated but it needs to be done soberly, rationally and logically. There is no point discussing a conspiracy with someone if they can't do that. It just ends up with one person asking fair questions and another telling him it's not his job to give that information and that's just a waste of time.

Don't get me wrong, I love conspiracies and I understand what this forum is for. But some of the stuff posted here is absolute rubbish posted by people who don't respond to simple questions and accuse those who disagree with them of being brainwashed or ignorant. In any other forum that would be trolling.

uprising

I'm a sceptic, I'm sceptical of a system that cares more for money than life, a system that destroy's the planet we live on instead of caring for it.
I'm sceptical of a media that refuses to tell the truth, a media which brainwashes the viewer/listener with falseness and fabrications. I don't blindly refute something because of the source, I look and look again, I search things out, I find the truth when I can, I find lies when I can, I know when to tell the difference, no source is 100% true nor false all the time, truth is mixed with lies then mixed with truth. The mason's two headed pheonix is an example, one only tells the truth, the other only tells lies, thats how the system works, it's designed to confuse.
So I'm very much a sceptic.

Black Uhlan

studiorat wrote: »

blah

With all this talk of criticising the poster lately, mostly by you it seems you would like to eliminate dissident thinking. Ha! Good luck man! While I don't appreciate your stereotyping nonsense I thought I would reply. While maybe for you, some, most, scientific materialism is superior to all other forms of thinking, despite the fact the these theories are constantly changing. If you think you have no self, no soul, no creator and life as we live it is courtesy of random events in DNA and our planet thats fine but you cannot expect everyone to feel the same way. You cannot apply science to all forms of history, society and spititual issues and if someone disagrees with you you shouldn't stereotype and insult them, even if it somehow makes you feel more superior/less insecure. In short, people question the messenger because of tits poor track record.

bikeblues

Most people disagree with 'the government ' because 99 out of 100 times
'the government ' is lying to you , and this is proven over and over again .
this country is as bad as any of them

so who could honestly put their hand up here and SERIOUSLY say they believe the government has their best interests at heart ?

and SERIOUSLY say they believe the government tells the truth ?

not believing the government is not being a CT person, its being an intelligent person .

my own opinion is that most CTpeople are only looking for truth, because the mainstream ideas to date have paper fronts that are fast falling away to reveal obvious constructs , lies , and controls ,

why ?
because the web is allowing people who cannot accept the obvious constructs , of 'truth' to talk to each other and try to make sense as to what the real truth is -

the fact of the matter is -
what you see in the news, the government , education systems , religion
is so far from the real truth - that when the 'truth' does prevail- alot of people are going to be seriously disturbed by what they hear.

CT people at least have an open mind that can question who exactly is holding the spoon that feeds them
yes , alot of CT is bull****

but alot of it is Scarily NOT bull**** , and some of the most far out ones are included in this group.

blatent dismissal of all CT ideas , backed up by some dated scientific paradigm , and assuming the government is good for you - is the path of doom / slavery / control in my opinion.

Black Uhlan

Yeah I agree you get propoganda from the governments and from their sidekicks the media. Propoganda that is used to give bogus reasons to justify barbaric acts and insatiable greed.

Nick_oliveri

studiorat wrote: »

The conspiracy theorist mindset. It's a classic case of ignoring the message because of the messanger. It is my view that the conspiracy theorist in fact feels disenfranchised from the society as a whole. Hence they will have issue with all the facts presented by members of that society.

Yes, much in line with all skeptics refusing to listen to any theory because of the messenger. And why not, the skeptics root out the misleading facts in a theory, and the once labeled CT'er will (sometimes) root out the misleading facts from members of the society, especially authorities. Its healthy - to a certain point. Its an engine that even keeps this forum chugging.

The "government" tells us something, and because the person disagrees with that "government" as a system or it's members, they automatically try to disprove any facts presented by that government. Despite the evidence being there, they will create arguments simply for the sake of disagreeing with that pov. To the extent that they will make the most irrational claims simply to oppose the "mans" point of view.

When the evidence comes from that very institution its hard to take it as fact for some people. A case in point, the Iraqi girl from the first Iraq war. Theres the evidence for war. WMD's and Al Queda in the second. How the **** are you supposed to believe anything that comes after that? I'm sure if I sauntered in here and gave out misleading information you would stop reading my posts, wouldn't you not? Except my misleading information didn't lead to the slaughter of 1million+ Iraqi civilians did it? Did it start or contribute to a civil war between sunni and shiites?

Did it take responsibilty for the Nigerian bomber and then continue on its path to bring in more "security"? Did it spend trillions of dollars on benign statistics and social scapegoats and threats while millions of our brothers and sisters starve to death every day? Theres your freedom and democracy, hypocrisy. I could go about the Irish government and all but you know....

No wonder the paranoia about such institutions rises, and yes it does get out of hand. Now tell me why does it matter so much to you when you are guilty of the same thing to an extent?