Its all the Government's fault! huh?

wicklowmale

Ok i am fed up with hearing ppl say that this is all the governments fault, Just how the hell is it?

We have had the worst climatic conditions in nearly half a century (Climatic!, this is beyond the control of any government!

The state of the country's roads? See previous statement regarding climatic conditions, also to point out that there is a shortage of grit (England in the same boat too, running out of the stuff).
My understanding is if grit is spread on the roads and it snows on top of that, then freezes, may as well be no grit on the road.
The roads are the sole responsibility of the councils, they then report back to government. If the councils are doing all they can, considering the conditions, then there nothing more they can do.

Anyone who drives in these conditions and crashes ( considering all the warnings that have been given by the AA and the Gardai) have no one to blame but themselves.

Anyone who slips on the paths needs to be extra careful, if the fall, It no ones fault. Wear appropriate footwear and take it easy. (Walk on the grass if available, hold onto something)

I am fed up with listening to ppl blaming the government (clearly when there nothing they could have done). I am fully convinced that the irish ppl are nothing but a bunch of moaners, no suggestions.

You change your driving habits to suit the condition of the roads etc, Don't try and drive up a hill when it clearly dangerous and for gods sake don't go out unless it is 100% necessary.

Also ppl in their SUV's! learn how to use them. They are full of technology to help u cope with these icey roads.

Germany -30 last night, england -22.9 etc....

India and China are suffering too from v heavy snow fall too

There not much more to say here but, it is not the goverment's fault
(grow some balls ppl and be responsible)

cinnamon

First of all agree with what you're saying. We have been suckled too long at the government's teet. I am sick of people demanding everything. What did we do before? We helped ourselves, we helped each other. God help if these people were really stranded on some mountain somewhere, with no car, house, shelter.

The only people I have any sympathy for are older people who are isolated in rural communities. They are the vulnerable ones.

wicklowmale wrote: »

Anyone who drives in these conditions and crashes ( considering all the warnings that have been given by the AA and the Gardai) have no one to blame but themselves.

I disagree with this though. My brother works nights, delivering newspapers. He HAS to work. If he refuses to go to work, then he's out of a job. Simple as. He has dealt with similar conditions almost every winter.

He is actually out BEFORE the gritters. He has worked on these icy treacherous conditions all over Christmas, his heavy van has slided all over the roads, nearly lost his life twice this Christmas.
And HE HASNT COMPLAINED ONCE. He is actually risking his life every night. All the moaners on the radio are doing my head in. They should get some perspective, :mad:

seamus

cinnamon wrote: »

And HE HASNT COMPLAINED ONCE.

He probably should. His employer has a duty to provide him with a vehicle that's up to the job - that includes fitting appropriate tyres to the vehicle. He can't be fired for pointing this out and he cannot be fired for refusing to work in conditions that present a danger to him.

ardmacha

I am fed up with listening to ppl blaming the government (clearly when there nothing they could have done)

The government is not responsible for the snow. We can expect them to be responsible for clearing it away. While it is a colder winter than those for a few years it is entirely reasonable to suppose that such a winter would come along at some stage and there should have been a plan for this event, there is little evidence of detailed planning. Other countries do not come to halt because of frozen water, why should we?

bobzee

Other countries are coming to a halt too. This is weather way beyond the norm. The UK is coming to a halt...other countries that normally have freezing winters can cope with them because they build up experience and equipment and stores over years to cope with it....you cannot compare how Ireland copes with this weather with how the US, Scandinavia etc would cope with it.

Was talking to a friend in Holland earlier today they are also in chaos..they have pretty much run out of grit and there is delay importing it as the grit lorries are stuck in Germany having trouble getting out because of the bad weather.

Neamhshuntasach

While this sort of cold spell isn't a normal feature within our climate we are vunerable to such conditions on occasion. And because of that vunerability there should be procedures set in place to handle both traffic and pedestrian management and safety. Not only in the capital. But around the country which has been affected longer and had to put up with much harsher situations. No it's not the Governments fault for the weather we are experiencing. But it is their duty to at least have something in place to deal with it. Whether it be through councils or whoever else they are funding.

wicklowmale

Cinamon i completely understand. He has to go out!

In relation to the cold snap we are experiencing, it not the norm so expecting the council's to have the same equipment as those countries who are use to dealing with these conditions is not realistic, I pretty sure if we have a mild winter next yr, ppl would be comlaining about all the snow moving equipement sitting in a yard doing nothing. They complain if precautions are made and if they not. Which further strengthens my point that the Irish are nothing but moaners.

The conditions are so bad that our neighbour came to pull our 4x4 out of a ditch and his tractor wasn't able to deal with the icey road.

I glad to see there are ppl out there with a realistic outlook.

bobzee

Councils do have procedures for dealing with ice and snow..they can't however cope when the situation is this severe, and I wouldn't expect them do either. I am not saying the response from the authorities has been brilliant, it hasn't but I don't think they could have been prepared for this.

As an aside Dublin has been experiencing snow and ice for longer than a couple of days now...there were plenty of icy dangerous roads and footpaths over the Christmas break around parts of Dublin..I know several people who couldn't get out of their estates over the break. Dublin is only in the news now because everybody is trying to get to work..granted most people in Dublin are close to shops etc...and so the situation for most people is not as bad as in other places.

I am not saying Dublin has been worst hit..I know there are many more places that have been in difficulty for a much longer time..and I know several people that have been barely able to leave their houses for 3 weeks in various parts of the country..but Dublin is in the news now because its has the biggest concentration of people going to/from work

wicklowmale

bobzee wrote: »

Was talking to a friend in Holland earlier today they are also in chaos..they have pretty much run out of grit and there is delay importing it as the grit lorries are stuck in Germany having trouble getting out because of the bad weather.

Amazing! this is happening all over Europe. WOW

Even countries who are use to this weather are having trouble coping

Lack of grit in holland too.

ardmacha

I don't expect Ireland to have equipment found in Canada or whatever. After 1982 the US sent us snow blowers which lay in yard and were scrapped after 20 years without ever being used. I do expect a plan to make full use of the equipment that does exist, e.g. to have blades for council trucks, and to have a plan to deploy all available staff e.g. gardeners for clearing footpaths etc. And if a lot of salt is used in December I expect them to order more immediately so that there is enough for January.

There is a big difference between being able to fully cope with something and not having planned for it.

wicklowmale

seamus wrote: »

He probably should. His employer has a duty to provide him with a vehicle that's up to the job - that includes fitting appropriate tyres to the vehicle. He can't be fired for pointing this out and he cannot be fired for refusing to work in conditions that present a danger to him.

How often do we get weather this extreme? Not very often so to expect an employer to provide vehicles for conditions we rarely experience is not realistic.

wicklowmale

ardmacha wrote: »

And if a lot of salt is used in December I expect them to order more immediately so that there is enough for January.

The salt they use is not standard sea salt, it is rock salt. As we can see over in england they are running short on grit etc. Some areas of england have used a whole yrs supply in less than a week.

This should give ppl an idea of how extreme this cold weather we are experiencing is!

seamus

wicklowmale wrote: »

How often do we get weather this extreme? Not very often so to expect an employer to provide vehicles for conditions we rarely experience is not realistic.

You don't have to change the vehicle, just the tyres. Freezing conditions are a yearly occurence and will alway affect people who are on the roads overnight such as this man.

DDigital

I think we need some perspective here. The conditions in Ireland are not comparable to the UK or mainland Europe. Neither is anyone expecting every little boreen to be cleared of snow and ice. However, when a few cms of snow can bring a city like Dublin to a standstill like it did on Wednesday then questions have to be asked of the authorities ability to deal with it. In Feb 09 a more temporary but similar fall of snow brought chaos to the main roads in the Dublin area.

In fact as far back as I can remember even in less perlonged wintry conditions we have failed to adequately manage the situation. We get heavy frost every winter in some part of the country and we consistantly fail to grit/treat main roads. This is a fact. There is no plan whatsoever in place to deal with this. It is naieve to accept that both local and central Government are "doing all they can". They are making a mess of it. Criticising members of the public for complaining seems to be a new development, but its a poor one.

metrovelvet

Im in the west. The ice rink on ghe estate has been there for two weeks. Ambulences werent running. If there were a fire ir medical emergency the services couldn't get to people. The council has done nothing. The army should have been deployed two weeks ago to use sand from the beaches to grit the roads. This is what the govt get paid to do. Id hate to see this country in a real emergency. Two inches of snow and its chaos. Ridiculous.

wicklowmale

First of all, using sand from beaches would be a great idea, only thing is, when the snow thaws it goes into.... drains. Sand collecting in drains would cause major problems this would then be...... The governments fault.

I just noticed you said in the estate, an estate is not a priority area. If they were we definately would have no grit.

This is what i am talking about. No matter what is done or happened its always the governments fault.

I understand conditions are crazy all over the country, but going back to the reason for this is, it always the governments fault.

I 100% certain that when the thaw comes and there is localised flooding, it will also be the Government's fault.

I just hope the Irish people stop been a country of moaners and grow up.

milosh

All schools to close until next thursday according to www.rte.ie

This after the Department Of Education has said consistently for the last week that it is up to each school's board of management to decide whether to open or not.

DDigital

wicklowmale wrote: »

First of all, using sand from beaches would be a great idea, only thing is, when the snow thaws it goes into.... drains. Sand collecting in drains would cause major problems this would then be...... The governments fault.

I just noticed you said in the estate, an estate is not a priority area. If they were we definately would have no grit.

This is what i am talking about. No matter what is done or happened its always the governments fault.

I understand conditions are crazy all over the country, but going back to the reason for this is, it always the governments fault.

I 100% certain that when the thaw comes and there is localised flooding, it will also be the Government's fault.

I just hope the Irish people stop been a country of moaners and grow up.

To be honest wicklowmale you are moaning about people moaning about it being the Governments fault. Do you accept that the Government is culpable for the obvious poor response to the problems caused by the weather?

snow ghost

wicklowmale wrote: »

First of all, using sand from beaches would be a great idea, only thing is, when the snow thaws it goes into.... drains. Sand collecting in drains would cause major problems this would then be...... The governments fault.

I just noticed you said in the estate, an estate is not a priority area. If they were we definately would have no grit.

This is what i am talking about. No matter what is done or happened its always the governments fault.

I understand conditions are crazy all over the country, but going back to the reason for this is, it always the governments fault.

I 100% certain that when the thaw comes and there is localised flooding, it will also be the Government's fault.

I just hope the Irish people stop been a country of moaners and grow up.

Wicklow male, I agree that this Big Freeze constitues exceptional circumstances... and councils don't have finite resources to stockpile grit incase something like this happens... they have to buy grit based on the avaerage winters.

That said, when I saw on Christmas morning Westport Council employees emptying litter bins and not a gritter in sight - and the roads treacherous -I am critical of government on a local level - as they knew it was coming - as is my democratic right to be.

It is quite clear that the councils were too busy having their public funded Christams hols and not worrying about the situation that was unfolding. I had to abandon my car on Christmas Day because they hadn't gritted the roads... my real concern was for elderly people who may have needed an ambulance that wouldn't have been able to reach them... but it was all good because they were emptying litter bins.

So I am critical of local and to an extent national government... it's healthy to be critical of them... we are the shareholders and they are our appointed board of directors that we elect and pay for.

wicklowmale

The decision was taken following a review of the weekend weather forecast at a meeting of the Government's Emergency Response Committee

Yes the article says it all........

It was a review!

It was each schools decision prior to this review.

wicklowmale

snow ghost wrote: »

That said, when I saw on Christmas morning Westport Council employees emptying litter bins and not a gritter in sight - and the roads treacherous -I am critical of government on a local level - as they knew it was coming - as is my democratic right to be.

It is quite clear that the councils were too busy having their public funded Christams hols and not worrying about the situation that was unfolding. I had to abandon my car on Christmas Day because they hadn't gritted the roads... my real concern was for elderly people who may have needed an ambulance that wouldn't have been able to reach them... but it was all good because they were emptying litter bins.

So I am critical of local and to an extent national government... it's healthy to do so.

Local Government = Council

public funded Christams hols = is everyone not off for christmas, should they not be entitled to hols?

ppl requiring emergency care = if the normal emergency services are unable to get to ppl by road they usually call in the air rescue or army (reason why army is on standby)

I have no problem been critical of local/national government once its realistic.

Its everyone's democratic right, thats why we have elections. My point is that so many irish ppl just sit around moaning and moaning.

We do we as a nation have to moan so much? Is life so boring?

wicklowmale

DDigital wrote: »

Do you accept that the Government is culpable for the obvious poor response to the problems caused by the weather?

What about all the other countries it has caused problems in?

Meditaranian had 12 inches of snow

Barcelona = schools all closed due to the snow

-34 in sweden

-30 in Germany

Seemly we not the only country affected!

It puts it all into perspective and yes i am moaning about ppl moaning all the time, i am not a moany person and i am sick and tired listening to ppl moan all the time but they don't have any realistic suggestions.

So here i rest my case

CombatCow

I agree with what your saying wicklowmale, some people will use any excuse to give out about the government.

If we were stocked up with tonnes and tonnes of salt/grit and we didnt have this unprecedented weather and wasent used, people would be giving out about having it stockpiled and not needed. you just cant win.


CC

greysides

Government/Local Authorities/County Councils should do all they can (and I've no doubt they are doing so) but it behoves citizens to do all they can for themselves too!

This is common sense but there's a lack of it going round.

I'm fed up of hearing people complaining about the authorities. Weather is outside anybodies control.

How many of the complainers have winter tyres, snow chains and have taken skid lessons. If not, why?
If it's not sensible for them to have tyres/wheels and chains on standby then how can they complain about the lack of gritters?

In by-gone days when we didn't have FWD cars, 4x4's and heavy moving machinery how did our ancestors survive?

They got on with it and bl**dy well did something for themselves and others without expecting someone else to do it for them.
We are now of the mindset that it's somebodies else's job to look out for us and we take no responsibility for ourselves. This leds to the ridiculous situation where there are solutions available to problems but fear of being sued means they can't be implemented. Farmers who are willing and able to grit secondary roads aren't able to do so for fear of legal action. Yet, here is an auxillary force that could be called upon on the rare occassions they would be needed. In the past they would have just got on with it. There is more to be addressed than just the scarcity of grit. The scarcity of gumption is much more telling!

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There, I feel better now!:D

DDigital

greysides wrote: »

Government/Local Authorities/County Councils should do all they can (and I've no doubt they are doing so) but it behoves citizens to do all they can for themselves too!

This is common sense but there's a lack of it going round.

I'm fed up of hearing people complaining about the authorities. Weather is outside anybodies control.

How many of the complainers have winter tyres, snow chains and have taken skid lessons. If not, why?
If it's not sensible for them to have tyres/wheels and chains on standby then how can they complain about the lack of gritters?

In by-gone days when we didn't have FWD cars, 4x4's and heavy moving machinery how did our ancestors survive?

They got on with it and bl**dy well did something for themselves and others without expecting someone else to do it for them.
We are now of the mindset that it's somebodies else's job to look out for us and we take no responsibility for ourselves. This leds to the ridiculous situation where there are solutions available to problems but fear of being sued means they can't be implemented. Farmers who are willing and able to grit secondary roads aren't able to do so for fear of legal action. Yet, here is an auxillary force that could be called upon on the rare occassions they would be needed. In the past they would have just got on with it. There is more to be addressed than just the scarcity of grit. The scarcity of gumption is much more telling!

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There, I feel better now!:D

Hang on a minute. You state that it behoves citizens to do all they can and then follow it with a statement of how farmers and citizens can be sued for doing something about conditions. Therefore the problem yet again lies with central Government - The law makers.

Furthermore you are saying that if a complainer doesn't have winter tyres, snow chains etc. what right have they got to complain about the lack of gritters. Please excuse me but have you been out in the cold too long?

And by the way it is not the mindset of people that has lead to a situation where you can be sued if an accident occurs on a footpath your cleared outside your house. Its the law and central Government make the law.

greysides

DDigital wrote: »

Hang on a minute. You state that it behoves citizens to do all they can and then follow it with a statement of how farmers and citizens can be sued for doing something about conditions. Therefore the problem yet again lies with central Government - The law makers.

The courts and precedents rather than central government I think but it would need to be sorted out by government law makers.

Furthermore you are saying that if a complainer doesn't have winter tyres, snow chains etc. what right have they got to complain about the lack of gritters.

Point being made is that if we can't justify the expense of those things we can't blame authorities for similar decision making.

And by the way it is not the mindset of people that has lead to a situation where you can be sued if an accident occurs on a footpath your cleared outside your house. Its the law and central Government make the law.

I would think that legal precedents set in cases taken by litigants is to blame. Somehow the scales of justice have been tilted too much in one direction.......heard the one about the American ladder.....it has a sticker on its top rung, it reads 'STOP'.

wicklowmale

DDigital wrote: »

Hang on a minute. You state that it behoves citizens to do all they can and then follow it with a statement of how farmers and citizens can be sued for doing something about conditions. Therefore the problem yet again lies with central Government - The law makers.

Furthermore you are saying that if a complainer doesn't have winter tyres, snow chains etc. what right have they got to complain about the lack of gritters. Please excuse me but have you been out in the cold too long?

And by the way it is not the mindset of people that has lead to a situation where you can be sued if an accident occurs on a footpath your cleared outside your house. Its the law and central Government make the law.

Greyside i completly understand what you are saying

And as always it the governments fault.

The reason the farmers etc could be sued it because we as a nation are becoming a nation of moaners and 'maybe i can sue for this' attitude

I heard on the news that they expect personal claims to increase due to falling on ice. Sorry but this sounds rediculous, unless someone has clearly done something to cause injury they should be laughed at and charged with wasting judical time. Ice is a natural effect of water freezing, when there is ice around you walk with care etc, use ur head ppl.

When snow has fallen on the roads etc and it gets cold, expect ice and drive with care, it common sense. I read on another thread in the motor section a guy's wife lost control on the ice, mounted the path, hit two tree and wrote off the car and he had the nerve to ask was there any way he could blame the council, lol. This is a perfect example of people's lack of responsibility and 'i'll try and blame someone else' attitude

DD it is due to the mindset of the people that you can be sued. The people kept trying to sue the council's etc, so the government pushed the responsility back onto the people.

DDigital

greysides wrote: »

I would think that legal precedents set in cases taken by litigants is to blame. Somehow the scales of justice have been tilted too much in one direction.......heard the one about the American ladder.....it has a sticker on its top rung, it reads 'STOP'.

I agree and that has become the case over the years. But I draw your attention to a Government decision a number of years ago to establish the PIAB due to the rediculous amount of personal injury claims. Precedents can be stopped in their tracks by good Governance. That was one rare example.

wicklowmale

greysides wrote: »

heard the one about the American ladder.....it has a sticker on its top rung, it reads 'STOP'.

I think this sums it all.

Use your head, think and react appropriately.

Ice on path = walk on grass or hold onto something or tread slowly

Ice on road = drive with extreme caution

You don't need a Phd in science to figure all this out

Get to top of ladder = stop



Alas we moving away from the point of this thread.

But maybe it still the governments fault.............

metrovelvet

wicklowmale wrote: »

First of all, using sand from beaches would be a great idea, only thing is, when the snow thaws it goes into.... drains. Sand collecting in drains would cause major problems this would then be...... The governments fault.

I just noticed you said in the estate, an estate is not a priority area. If they were we definately would have no grit.

This is what i am talking about. No matter what is done or happened its always the governments fault.

I understand conditions are crazy all over the country, but going back to the reason for this is, it always the governments fault.

I 100% certain that when the thaw comes and there is localised flooding, it will also be the Government's fault.

I just hope the Irish people stop been a country of moaners and grow up.

Oh I do agree with you partially. I and the other foreign women salted and gritted the road ourselves. What is infuriating is that stores arent doing anything about their fronts or parking lots and neither are schools. I stocked up on salt and used ash from the fireplace. If me and the other foreign women didnt take the initiative we would still be stuck. Not one Irish person was out their with a shovel. But that is what the council gets paid for. It shouldnt take two weeks. They have the equipment for it.

wicklowmale

DDigital wrote: »

I agree and that has become the case over the years. But I draw your attention to a Government decision a number of years ago to establish the PIAB due to the rediculous amount of personal injury claims. Precedents can be stopped in their tracks by good Governance. That was one rare example.

I agree too a degree.

Why do you think so many solicitors have ads on TV relating to personal injuries, there is huge money to be made.

It also a social issue.

Solicitors wouldn't be spending so much on TV commercials if they weren't sure of making a lot of money. People just want to sue for the slightest thing and it really sad.

I worked with a French guy a few yrs back, he was cycling to work and as he went around a roundabout a car tapped him and he fell. He stood up, he could move his leg, nothing broken, got on his bike and continued on his way.
If this was an irish guy, he be on the ground, wait for ambulance, sue the driver and walk away with a few thousand Euro.