SF lose another councillor

Voipjunkie

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0109/sinnfein.html

Seen this on Politics.ie last night confirmed today, that is 3 in 6 months are we witnessing the beginning of the end of SF in the 26 counties.

Killian Forde was one of their bright hopes and would have probably expected to be the Dail candidate next time out instead of Larry O'Toole. Rumours he is going to join Labour maybe for a run at Mcdowellls old seat as Tommy Broughan is in his constituency.

lugha

Voipjunkie wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0109/sinnfein.html

Seen this on Politics.ie last night confirmed today, that is 3 in 6 months are we witnessing the beginning of the end of SF in the 26 counties.

Killian Forde was one of their bright hopes and would have probably expected to be the Dail candidate next time out instead of Larry O'Toole. Rumours he is going to join Labour maybe for a run at Mcdowellls old seat as Tommy Broughan is in his constituency.

What's going on here? Is there some coherent explanation for all of these departures?

thebman

lugha wrote: »

What's going on here? Is there some coherent explanation for all of these departures?

Well its likely that Labour and FG will be in power after next election so I think they want to be in those parties in the hope to get them selves elected.

See a whiff of power and do what you have to do to get it attitude same as most politicians.

Since no party will go in with Sinn Fein anyway then even if they are popular they still won't get into power.

Het-Field

The difficulty is that SF stand to gain in certain areas, and lose in others. Plus, it is possible that Pierce Doherty may enter the Dail should the Dongeal Bye-Election be held. Of course it is unlikey seeing as BIFFO has already told the public "its not in FF's interests".

They are likely to lose the Dublin South Central seat to Eric Byrne, or Joan Collins of the People Before Profit Alliance. However, that will be mitigated as Sean Crowe is likely to take back his seat in Dublin South West.

nesf

lugha wrote: »

What's going on here? Is there some coherent explanation for all of these departures?

Party infighting most likely. As to what exactly, so long as there are no public statements made about it it'll just be rumour really. Unhappiness about the direction the party is taking in the city perhaps? Unhappiness about Mary Lou being selected for MEP or TD runs? Or something more prosaic about money for election campaigns or something? Etc.

Joey the lips

Killian is a great man. In fact I loved to hear him speak but anyone that follows politics and in particular sinn fein will refere to him as the "New shinners" you know the type that joined after the peace process.

He likes the socialism but has prob realised that his only line at promotion is through the labour party route.

The real test will be his ability to generate votes on election day.

Like Christy Burke we shall see. As i said both very nice people but socialism and money dont really mix.

imme

ok, Forde isn't a Shinner any more but you know what I mean by my title. When Christy Burke quit the part just after the Local elections in 2009. You could have knocked me down with the proverbial feather. Why? Well, because Burke was SF. When I thought of SF in Dublin I thought of Burke, not Adams.

In a similar way Forde was seen by me as the new SF, the post-peace process SF, as another poster has said. He was from the south, articulate, no baggage.

To paraphrase those immortal lines: To lose one SF councillor looks like misfortune.......;)

As for Forde, I don't know what kind of political fututre awaits him. I'm sure he'd be relelected as an Ind councillor in Donaghmede ward. Don't see him standing much of a chance trying to win the seat once held by Derek McDowell in Dublin N Central, it's down to a 3-seater now, and I don't know how the Labour folk would respond to him.

The question must also arise what now for SF south of the border. There's enough for a whole other thread, whatever happens.

Voipjunkie

imme wrote: »

ok, Forde isn't a Shinner any more but you know what I mean by my title. When Christy Burke quit the part just after the Local elections in 2009. You could have knocked me down with the proverbial feather. Why? Well, because Burke was SF. When I thought of SF in Dublin I thought of Burke, not Adams.

In a similar way Forde was seen by me as the new SF, the post-peace process SF, as another poster has said. He was from the south, articulate, no baggage.

To paraphrase those immortal lines: To lose one SF councillor looks like misfortune.......;)

As for Forde, I don't know what kind of political fututre awaits him. I'm sure he'd be relelected as an Ind councillor in Donaghmede ward. Don't see him standing much of a chance trying to win the seat once held by Derek McDowell in Dublin N Central, it's down to a 3-seater now, and I don't know how the Labour folk would respond to him.

The question must also arise what now for SF south of the border. There's enough for a whole other thread, whatever happens.

I was just guessing about the North Central seat as Tommy Broughan is in his constituency but of course Tommy is 62 now if Dail runs its course he will be close to retirement age next election.

I was thinking North Central because Labour don't have anyone there and McGraths seat may be under threat next time given his support for the government and then withdrawal of support and his Pro lisbon anti lisbon movements.

imme

Voipjunkie wrote: »

I was just guessing about the North Central seat as Tommy Broughan is in his constituency but of course Tommy is 62 now if Dail runs its course he will be close to retirement age next election.

I was thinking North Central because Labour don't have anyone there and McGraths seat may be under threat next time given his support for the government and then withdrawal of support and his Pro lisbon anti lisbon movements.

Maybe so VJ, maybe so. McDowell ran himself there in 2007 after being voted out in 2002. His 7 odd per cent 1st pref was nearly 3 per cent down on the 2002 showing. Maybe Forde will oust McGrath in 2010/2011/2012.
Maybe Forde will remain as an Ind councillor until the next locals and leave politics.

nesf

imme wrote: »

Maybe so VJ, maybe so. McDowell ran himself there in 2007 after being voted out in 2002. His 7 odd per cent 1st pref was nearly 3 per cent down on the 2002 showing. Maybe Forde will oust McGrath in 2010/2011/2012.
Maybe Forde will remain as an Ind councillor until the next locals and leave politics.

If he was going to leave politics he'd resign his seat as well, by holding onto it he's burning his bridges with SF pretty much permanently. This really looks more like a mass revolt at local level than an isolated case of someone wanting to step down from politics though.

imme

nesf wrote: »

If he was going to leave politics he'd resign his seat as well, by holding onto it he's burning his bridges with SF pretty much permanently. This really looks more like a mass revolt at local level than an isolated case of someone wanting to step down from politics though.

maybe so Nesf, maybe so;)

What do you see for SF in Dublin for the future or nationwide, you sound like you want to start a thread on it.:D

Mr. Incognito

Maybe he just grew up a little- there's a reason why Sinn Fein are popular in college campuses and then people grow out of them when they actually have a look at their bigotry, anti- EU stance and crazy economic suicide policies like hyper corporation tax and rent controls.

They have a dangerous ideology that people grow out of when they learn that the world is better with compromise and mutual respect.

Annasopra

Voipjunkie wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0109/sinnfein.html

Seen this on Politics.ie last night confirmed today, that is 3 in 6 months are we witnessing the beginning of the end of SF in the 26 counties.

Killian Forde was one of their bright hopes and would have probably expected to be the Dail candidate next time out instead of Larry O'Toole. Rumours he is going to join Labour maybe for a run at Mcdowellls old seat as Tommy Broughan is in his constituency.

He won't be running as a Labour Candidate in Dublin North Central for Derek McDowells old seat - Cllr Aodhain O Riordain has already been selected

nesf

imme wrote: »

What do you see for SF in Dublin for the future or nationwide, you sound like you want to start a thread on it.:D

I don't have a clue. I know little about SF politics in Dublin and nationwide and generally just ignore their presence.

Voipjunkie

Johnnymcg wrote: »

He won't be running as a Labour Candidate in Dublin North Central for Derek McDowells old seat - Cllr Aodhain O Riordain has already been selected

Perhaps a long term successor to Broughan then I think the Labour councillor in Donaghmede would be even older than Broughan, Although with a spring tide type vote perhaps they could both get elected for Labour in Dublin north east. Forde has a healthy base to start from and O'Toole may be out of the running next time out.

fuelinjection

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Maybe he just grew up a little- bigotry, anti- EU stance and crazy economic suicide policies like hyper corporation tax and rent controls.

eeerr you know about the same about Sinn Fein as a BNP member.
They are pro-EU in all their media soundbites and website essays www.sinnfein.ie .

Bigotry ? No answer here to a badly thought out point but when you see them march against Islam in Dublin let me know. And before you say anti-Protestant they have an elected Protestant in Derry and if you read they are very pro-tricolour in their writings. Green, White and Orange.

The worst thing that people were scared of back in the good money days was Nationalisation of the Banks under a Sinn Fein Government and guess what ..
we have Nationalisation of the Banks.

jimmycrackcorm

fuelinjection wrote: »

The worst thing that people were scared off back in the good money days was Nationalisation of the Banks under a Sinn Fein Government and guess what ..
we have Nationalisation of the Banks.

There's an atlantic ocean between the present handling of the banks and the near-communist idealism of those Sinn Fein old style Nationalisation policies.

I've seen the drivel they put out in election material and they just appela to peoplse base anger and assume that the electorate is pretty stupid.

fuelinjection

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

There's an atlantic ocean between the present handling of the banks and the near-communist idealism of those Sinn Fein old style Nationalisation policies.
.

Nationalisation is nationalisation however you want to present it. The Government has majority shares in the banks. As a "communist" I have to say it's close to my idealist heaven.

Ask Obama the same thing is happening in America, althought his Abortionist support makes me wary of him, but thats another debate.

nesf

fuelinjection wrote: »

Nationalisation is nationalisation however you want to present it.

It's not.

Lockstep

Seems to be a new schism in SF at the moment.

SOmething between the old school, working class community activists (Christy) and the new wave of educated middle classers (Mary Lou)

fuelinjection

kickoutthejams wrote: »

Seems to be a new schism in SF at the moment.

SOmething between the old school, working class community activists (Christy) and the new wave of educated middle classers (Mary Lou)

Not defending the Shinners, well ok I am, but that is quite true.

Joey the lips

kickoutthejams wrote: »

Seems to be a new schism in SF at the moment.

SOmething between the old school, working class community activists (Christy) and the new wave of educated middle classers (Mary Lou)

I spent many years working in the youth service. I was very vocal on local politics as a result. Trying to fundraise etc. I worked very close to a lot of sinn fein reps, Inc Mary Lou on occassions. Mary was very involved in the youth service as well.

Since the peace process there has been a lot of new support for sinn fein. However a lot of the old school support that did not agree with the direction has dropped off as well. This is why you have strong support for RSF and Eirigi growing.

Killian Forde has been a great asset to sinn fein but in my opinion he is learning that true socialism is not about profit it is about the good you do in the community. He is realising that there is not a lot of reward for this good. Poorer members of the community do not vote. This is not a rant this is statasical fact. I honestly believe that killian will now join labout becauase he figures he deserves to get paid for his good work and why not. But this is an erosion in my opinion of his initial beliefs.

Christy Burke left sinn fein because he did not get support on the ground. He says! Rubbish! He was subject to the same socialist attitude I discuss with Killian.

Sinn fein believe that these 2 councillors should both give back there seats. After all the seats were won on there mandate. Are sinn fein wrong.... No.

The real true test to all this is the votor. Will Killian win the rebal vote that traditionally would have never voted him because of the sinn fein link. Will christy Burke. More importantly how will these 2 manage to get through veto's in local govt without lineing themselves with someone. Will they aline themselves with sinn fein.

The election will be the true test to all our questions. The spead of votes will be interesiting.

I firmly believe that Killian Forde will have not trouble getting votes in his area and actually believe he will lose some but gain the core that vote. I also believe the same of christy.

However To both there supporters I believe that you are mis informed if you believe that they both left sinn fein because they did not agree with there direction. They both left because they no longer could stomach working for nothing. The socialist agenda that sinn fein work under.

fuelinjection

nesf wrote: »

It's not.

You are a mod so I chose my words and that.
Theres lots of ways to calls what NAMA is but most of Europe will accept that the Irish Government has backed our banks with our National Pensions and Bonds. having said that, I accept that we are in a different place now and its not Socialism.

Joey the lips

Just for the curiosity and having read the hole thread there is an underlying belief that those that left sinn fein left it because they dont support or believe in there nationalist beliefs.

Where does this belief come from. Those that left were councillors. They delt with micro politics not macro. They prob dont know what the national debt is never mind how to deal with it.

As i said previously I believe they left because they felt they were un rewarded for there work. This is not a socialist so really I see it as there loss not sinn feins.

fuelinjection

Joey the lips wrote: »

Just for the curiosity and having read the hole thread there is an underlying belief that those that left sinn fein left it because they dont support or believe in there nationalist beliefs.

Where does this belief come from. Those that left were councillors. They delt with micro politics not macro. They prob dont know what the national debt is never mind how to deal with it.

As i said previously I believe they left because they felt they were un rewarded for there work. This is not a socialist so really I see it as there loss not sinn feins.

Two problems in Dublin for SF.

1./ Having people that went to the same area/school as you and went thought the same good or bad times.

2./ The whole celeb thing with Gerry and Mairtin. much as I love them, there is no comparison in Dublin.

By the way Fianna Gael (Blueshirts) have the same problems now with George Lee as they have their own people in place already. I suspect he will change parties out of boredom this year. Maybe Labour ?

Joey the lips

fuelinjection wrote: »

Two problems in Dublin for SF.

1./ Having people that went to the same area/school as you and went thought the same good or bad times.

2./ The whole celeb thing with Gerry and Mairtin. much as I love them, there is no comparison in Dublin.

By the way Fianna Gael (Blueshirts) have the same problems now with George Lee as they have their own people in place already. I suspect he will change parties out of boredom this year. Maybe Labour ?

Rubbish..... Most sinn fein recruits are from the youth service or community workers. I worked with about 5 people and we were not even in the same school.

There is no celeb thing.

Are you guessing this or have you anything other than a whim to back it up?

fuelinjection

Joey the lips wrote: »

Rubbish..... Most sinn fein recruits are from the youth service or community workers. I worked with about 5 people and we were not even in the same school.
There is no celeb thing.

I was 34 when I joined Sinn Fein, but don't let that spoil your facts.
True that the college students are the most active. But the celeb problem is between Belfast and Derry and Dublin. There is no comparison.

Joey the lips

fuelinjection wrote: »

I was 34 when I joined Sinn Fein, but don't let that spoil your facts.
True that the college students are the most active. But the celeb problem is between Belfast and Derry and Dublin. There is no comparison.

again your missing the point of what i said. Most councillors come from the community. Most recruits come from the celeb aspect that you discuss. That is the same of any party. You think fine gael is going to recruit billy no mates in the delapadated house to run for election. No. But they will allow billy no mates join and prove himself.

No fine gael will try a coup like george lee. The difference between fine gael and sinn fein is that most people in sinn fein will be delighted at such a coup. Where as you can bet there was and is a lot of disgruntaleced people in fine gael over george lee now getting the light.

The type of celeb problem you discuss dies very very quickly because unless they prove themselves for any party they are useless.

btw it begs the question can you not see this pattern or have you left the party because you never got to meet the celeb.

fuelinjection

Joey I am not arguing your point, believe it or not I agree.

I am saying that the "celeb" culture is bad in my party as well as the rest... hence Killian Forde leaving. In an ideal world and all that, but we don't live in an ideal world and celebs and popular/media culture exists.

From a selfish point of view Killian is a loss and I wonder if he had a blank sheet, history wise, would he still be there ?

Joey the lips

fuelinjection wrote: »

Joey I am not arguing your point, believe it or not I agree.

I am saying that the "celeb" culture is bad in my party as well as the rest... hence Killian Forde leaving. In an ideal world and all that, but we don't live in an ideal world and celebs and popular/media culture exists.

From a selfish point of view Killian is a loss and I wonder if he had a blank sheet, history wise, would he still be there ?

My apologies. I was not takeing it as an arguement but more a discussion. The celeb culture is present in every party. Its more evident in sf because people were believed to be taking a stepping stone on the road to joining the IRA. Which of course is now not a problem.

Killian is a loss. The sad thing about politics for all party's is that although local councillors are poorly paid and on a macro level powerless. On a local level a TD will get nothing done without there support.IMO a concillor should be paid more than a TD.

A councillor whilest not achieving much themselves can be vert powerful as part of a lobby group or party.

Killian Forde like Christy Burke will not give up his seat because they now want more than socialism. It will be a matter if the new votes they gain will drive them forward or will they loose so much of there core they will be driven back.

The sad thing in all this is that the work done on the ground is usually done by the local cumman from what i see and whilst they might support killian if they think there work was hard before wait until they see the future.

Either they will be swollowed up and become part of a labour collective for which they will be new and starting out and judged with an air of suspecian

or

They will be forced to travel the lonely road that Joe Higgins has traveled for years and due to funding constraints will be producing the poor wuality black and white leaflets we see that accompanies the underfunded aims of an independent socialist.

imme

Forde was on the Wide Angle radio programme earlier on Newstalk. He's been a frequent guest over the past number of years on the show. He refused to answer whether he was ready to join Labour. He said a statement will issue tomorrow.