Irish speakers a new elite

dlofnep · 10-01-2010 11:09pm

The language is not dead. I use it every day. There is a solid strategic plan to re-introduce it into Irish society over the next 20 years. We get it, you don't like the language - but many of us do, and many of us support it.

sceptre · 11-01-2010 12:03am

Does this plan exist in linkable form?

Permabear · 11-01-2010 12:17am

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imme · 11-01-2010 12:24am

I understand from a previous thread that you're against public healthcare, that's what I was referring to. I don't understand what you mean when you say you want the Teachers' Unions out of education. Are they responsible for the curriculum? Are you pushing private education over public education?

dlofnep · 11-01-2010 12:32am

Indeed: http://www.eamonocuiv.ie/images/docs/draft_20_year_strategy.doc

In summary, it intends to place more focus on conversational aspects of the language. It's a good read and looks promising.

dlofnep · 11-01-2010 12:36am

No, I don't. You made the statement that the language was dead. I provided you evidence that it was not. I'm not sure how I get an F for logic.

Now if you had of said that the language was not widespread as it should be, - I would have agreed with you. But when you use terms like "dead" with intent to get a emotive response, you're not doing the discussion any good.

Bottle_of_Smoke · 11-01-2010 12:44am

I think Irish is a pretty hard one to get a high grade in. I think more often than not people do ordinary Irish(which could be passed by many kids in english speaking primary schools) and do another subject at higher level for points. I did that myself actually

nesf · 11-01-2010 12:45am

I think that's the first time I've ever seen you say something positive about something that has a FF hand in it...

sceptre · 11-01-2010 12:57am

Cheers - may be a few days before I get to look at it properly but I'm definitely interested in it.

Permabear · 11-01-2010 1:06am

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dlofnep · 11-01-2010 1:07am

Ah now! I don't completely hate everyone in Fianna Fáil. I think the proposals are pretty good in comparison to what was there before.

nesf · 11-01-2010 1:08am

Nah it's a Dublin thing. In Dublin Gaelscoilenna similar to Rugby tend to be things attended by the middle class. Outside Dublin both Gaelscoileanne and Rugby are enjoyed by all sorts of people from all sorts of backgrounds.

nesf · 11-01-2010 1:12am

Almost no one raised their kids through Latin though, while quite a few people in this country raise their kids through Irish. Irish isn't a dead language, there are still native speakers around who speak it primarily in the home and retain full fluency in the language. If we reach a stage where this is no longer the case then yes Irish will be dead but as of yet it isn't the case.

Language death is a valid term but it refers to a very specific linguistic concept which does not apply to Irish at this time.

dlofnep · 11-01-2010 1:19am

Look - your understanding of a dead language, and my understanding are obviously different. We have various communities which use the Irish language, and then many groups and social gatherings outside of these areas who use it. It's weak right now, but dead isn't an adjective that I would use.

I believe, and I'm up for correction that you throw around words like "dead" just to incite an emotive response. I've read your posts on the Irish language, and you're obviously not a fan of it's support. But the Irish public does support the language on a number of levels.

I'm not interesting it wasting all night on here debating the semantics of the word dead with you.

dlofnep · 11-01-2010 1:20am

I'm sure it is. I'm not from Dublin, so I'm not entirely sure how the demographics work there. But here in Waterford, it's most certainly the opposite for sure.

dlofnep · 11-01-2010 1:22am

No probs! It's a pretty good read, and it's certainly a positive move in terms of reviving and creating interest in the language.

anonymous_joe · 11-01-2010 1:32am

Bingo.

When you look at any of the various league tables relating to academic performance, the best achieving schools tend to be private schools or gaelscoileanna.

In fairness, I went to a fairly posh school, and there were a good few lads in my year who'd gone to an Irish speaking national school. Mostly ones with relatively intellectual Gaeilgeoir types. Architects kids kind of thing.

A lot of posh kids go to gaeilscoilleanna. Hence them doing better than average.

Permabear · 11-01-2010 1:42am

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nesf · 11-01-2010 1:49am

Strictly speaking you didn't! Language death is about native speakers of the language and their existence. Non-native speakers don't count, that's why Latin is a dead language despite there being a large enough population of people who can read and/or speak it. Only examples of Irish being used as a primary language in the home and children being raised through it count as evidence against language death!

An extinct language is what I think you're thinking about which is a language for which there are no speakers left, native or otherwise.

nesf · 11-01-2010 1:54am

Yeah but you called it an "insular dead language" when quite obviously it isn't one. You're the one who brought up linguistic concepts incorrectly here not anyone else. Definitely endangered isn't dead etc.

dlofnep · 11-01-2010 1:54am

Fair enough.

Rebelheart · 11-01-2010 2:18am

As for logic, it only takes one person to speak it to disprove your quite silly argument.

As for detailed studies on the life or death of the Irish from qualified people, I'd rather read James McCloskey for some informed research on Irish and its future than take your word for it:

http://coislife.ie/books/academic/guthanna.htm

nesf · 11-01-2010 2:24am

No! Again, language death is about a dearth of native speakers not speakers of the language in general! Latin is dead yet there are plenty of latin speakers around the place etc.

Permabear · 11-01-2010 2:36am

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nesf · 11-01-2010 2:39am

Sure but referring to an "endangered language" as a dead language is emotive and there's no way around that. You have used the term incorrectly since it is incorrect to refer to anything as being X if it is not yet X. It's like referring to someone in a critical condition in intensive care as being dead, it's incorrect.

And seriously, I've yet to meet a native Irish speaker who thinks that there's a thriving language revival going on. Some noises might be made about how TnaG or RnaG are good but there's no illusions of the average person being able to converse in the language or even being interested in the area. You're arguing against a straw man here not a real argument.

Permabear · 11-01-2010 2:41am

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Permabear · 11-01-2010 2:57am

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nesf · 11-01-2010 3:01am

Yup, far better.

T runner is representative of Irish speakers in general? Oh dear..

I've never seen it argued as widespread, only that it someone should be able to, for instance, argue their case in Irish in court for instance. You're preaching to the converted though, I think translating all official documents into Irish is a horrible waste of money.

Lockstep · 11-01-2010 8:01am

I live in the Gael THact (at least when in Ireland) and there's a fair few neighbours who don't speak a word of Irish beyond the cúpla focail.

Many would consider themselves Irish speakers. WOnder what criteria were used for determining Irish speakers.

Permabear · 11-01-2010 11:19am

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Irish speakers a new elite

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