WPP1 / WPP2

BostonB

So obviously the company doesn't need them. However people need experience, and something is better than nothing on a CV.

BostonB

BostonB wrote: »

something is better than nothing on a CV.

Is it though? I don't know why, but my first impression is that the employee doesn't seem to value his time/experience as much as the next person if he's willing to work for free.

If I were an employer and was making an offer to someone to come work for me, my initial thought would be to offer the WPP person less than the person who didn't participate in the WPP scheme.

BostonB

So you'd choose no experience and no work history over someone with both...

ROTTING CHRIST

BostonB wrote: »

They can't they'd lose their dole. Your paying the dole not the cost training (assuming there is any). I assume the hope, is that with benefit of experience, on their CV, the person will get a job. Thus taking them off the dole. Saving you money. But you'd prefer to have them on the dole.

That said I don't think its a well thought out scheme. But the negativity on this thread is incredible.

Firstly as I've said, this scheme isn't taking people off the dole at all. There are plenty of skilled and experienced people already on the dole who would jump through hoops to gain paid employment. Your argument seems to suggest this scheme will create loads of experienced graduates in order to fill those 1000's of job vacancies :rolleyes: currently available. As another poster said, you can have 400k people with experience, but it won't create 400k jobs.

The negativity exists because like everything this government do, it wasn't very well thought out and is costing an already hugely in-debt country even more money.

Employers are abusing the hell out of this scheme, and choosing to try get someone in for free on the wpp rather than pay someone. THIS PREVENTS REAL JOB CREATION. Just browse through some of the 1000 wpp vacancies on fas website and you'll see what I mean.

miec wrote:

If the WPP scheme was scrapped, then those companies would have to pay someone, and that person would be paying tax and prsi, I cannot understand why those in favour of the scheme dismiss this very vital point.

This ^

BostonB

Its not a jobs creation scheme and it's not aimed at people with experience. Which is why Jobs asking for experience shouldn't be listed. It's meant to be aimed at people with no experience only.

You should be looking at other quangos for job creation.

28064212

miec wrote: »

If the WPP scheme was scrapped, then those companies would have to pay someone, and that person would be paying tax and prsi, I cannot understand why those in favour of the scheme dismiss this very vital point.

Because it's not true. If the WPP didn't exist, the majority of those companies wouldn't be hiring anyone. Companies and departments have a budget. If they don't have a spare €20,000 in that budget, they won't hire anyone. Even if they do, they'll likely have a hundred other things that also need money thrown at it.

miec wrote: »

Considering so many WPP jobs advertised seek graduates with experience (and I have posted up a few examples) most graduates still don't have a viable chance of getting in as a lot of people are taking the WPP scheme out of desperation because they hate being unemployed.

That's a huge assumption that you seem to taking as fact. I sure as hell wouldn't be on the WPP if I had a couple of years experience. There is no advantage to a person with 3 years experience going on the WPP, and there's plenty of other things they can do that would have a much bigger impact on their career prospects.

Deleted User wrote: »

Is it though? I don't know why, but my first impression is that the employee doesn't seem to value his time/experience as much as the next person if he's willing to work for free.

If I were an employer and was making an offer to someone to come work for me, my initial thought would be to offer the WPP person less than the person who didn't participate in the WPP scheme.

Fairly bizarre viewpoint, and not one that would be shared by anyone in a HR department. One candidate - spent 9 months on the dole. Other candidate - spent those 9 months getting experience. Fairly obvious who's going to get the position.

ROTTING CHRIST wrote: »

Firstly as I've said, this scheme isn't taking people off the dole at all. There are plenty of skilled and experienced people already on the dole who would jump through hoops to gain paid employment. Your argument seems to suggest this scheme will create loads of experienced graduates in order to fill those 1000's of job vacancies :rolleyes: currently available. As another poster said, you can have 400k people with experience, but it won't create 400k jobs.

But that's not the argument at all. The point of the scheme is to give an individual experience, so they will be better positioned to compete with the experienced people, and that when we do come out of the recession and new jobs are created, we don't have 4 years worth of graduates who have either emigrated or languished on the dole the entire time.

Another point the nay-sayers seem to be ignoring - a participant on the WPP is free to apply for 'proper' jobs at any time, and have to be given time off to attend interviews etc. They can drop their WPP employer at any time if they're successful in landing a position elsewhere.

clarelad

28064212 wrote: »

Because it's not true. If the WPP didn't exist, the majority of those companies wouldn't be hiring anyone. Companies and departments have a budget. If they don't have a spare €20,000 in that budget, they won't hire anyone. Even if they do, they'll likely have a hundred other things that also need money thrown at it.
That's a huge assumption that you seem to taking as fact. I sure as hell wouldn't be on the WPP if I had a couple of years experience. There is no advantage to a person with 3 years experience going on the WPP, and there's plenty of other things they can do that would have a much bigger impact on their career prospects.
Fairly bizarre viewpoint, and not one that would be shared by anyone in a HR department. One candidate - spent 9 months on the dole. Other candidate - spent those 9 months getting experience. Fairly obvious who's going to get the position.
But that's not the argument at all. The point of the scheme is to give an individual experience, so they will be better positioned to compete with the experienced people, and that when we do come out of the recession and new jobs are created, we don't have 4 years worth of graduates who have either emigrated or languished on the dole the entire time.

Another point the nay-sayers seem to be ignoring - a participant on the WPP is free to apply for 'proper' jobs at any time, and have to be given time off to attend interviews etc. They can drop their WPP employer at any time if they're successful in landing a position elsewhere.

Thats good to know that the employee is entitled to time off to attend interviews if need be,is this a definite? Its amazes me that this post gives so much more info than FAS could ever provide...

28064212

clarelad wrote: »

Thats good to know that the employee is entitled to time off to attend interviews if need be,is this a definite? Its amazes me that this post gives so much more info than FAS could ever provide...

According to the Fás person I spoke to when I registered for it. Besides, what's the company going to do, fire an unpaid worker?

clarelad

ok,starting my placement monday should be interesting:)

clarelad

Weepsie wrote: »

been doing one for 4 months and finishing up in june. It's made my cv look healthier as i had not much work experience outside of the one job i had for 4 years through college. I'm getting a new, good reference out of it as last employer has a policy of not giving references this is really appreciated. Transport costs take 20 quid a week (5day bus ticket, saves a fortune), easy to get over, i either get free lunch or bring in my own so thats not all that expensive.

plus it beats sitting around doing nothing, I have somewhat improved my prospects of getting one of the jobs ive applied for in recent weeks.

Hi weepsie,are you geting your dole posted out or do you still have to collect it?

donkey balls

Weepsie wrote: »

been doing one for 4 months and finishing up in june. It's made my cv look healthier as i had not much work experience outside of the one job i had for 4 years through college. I'm getting a new, good reference out of it as last employer has a policy of not giving references this is really appreciated. Transport costs take 20 quid a week (5day bus ticket, saves a fortune), easy to get over, i either get free lunch or bring in my own so thats not all that expensive.

plus it beats sitting around doing nothing, I have somewhat improved my prospects of getting one of the jobs ive applied for in recent weeks.

the reference an employer gives can only state the date you started/finished and what your duties were,they cannot say the person was good/crap at there job as this could lead them open to legal action.

stupidusername

BostonB wrote: »

Its not a jobs creation scheme and it's not aimed at people with experience. Which is why Jobs asking for experience shouldn't be listed. It's meant to be aimed at people with no experience only.

You should be looking at other quangos for job creation.

But there are lots of these positions that are advertised looking for people with experience. And to get these positions advertised they have to be approved by the FAS people, so obviously they don't care that its being abused.

clarelad wrote: »

Thats good to know that the employee is entitled to time off to attend interviews if need be,is this a definite? Its amazes me that this post gives so much more info than FAS could ever provide...

All of this information is up on the FAS website, if you want to check it out.

clarelad wrote: »

Hi weepsie,are you geting your dole posted out or do you still have to collect it?

If you are starting a placement on Monday, shouldn't you have asked this? As far as I know (as many people here have said it) you get your dole through your bank account.

28064212 wrote: »

According to the Fás person I spoke to when I registered for it. Besides, what's the company going to do, fire an unpaid worker?

A friend of mine at an interview for a position like this was told that starting off he'd be on a trial period, and that basically if he didn't know enough they'd let him go. So ya they could fire you.

And as well as this he was told that the company had had a guy working for them on WPP previously that was working from another county, so this clearly wasn't a company offering experience.

clarelad

Are employees supposed to be trained up when they start?

BostonB

stupidusername wrote: »

But there are lots of these positions that are advertised looking for people with experience. And to get these positions advertised they have to be approved by the FAS people, so obviously they don't care that its being abused.....

Well it depends on the job, some jobs you can't be a complete greenhorn. But I'd agree that some of the jobs listed appear to be inappropriate.

28064212

donkey balls wrote: »

the reference an employer gives can only state the date you started/finished and what your duties were,they cannot say the person was good/crap at there job as this could lead them open to legal action.

Not true at all. They can give you an excellent reference. AFAIK, they can't give a bad reference though. A lot of companies do only give start/end dates, in case legal action is ever taken against them based on it (although I've never heard of such a case)

stupidusername wrote: »

A friend of mine at an interview for a position like this was told that starting off he'd be on a trial period, and that basically if he didn't know enough they'd let him go. So ya they could fire you.

Oh yeah, they can fire you, I'm just saying it's not very likely

stupidusername wrote: »

And as well as this he was told that the company had had a guy working for them on WPP previously that was working from another county, so this clearly wasn't a company offering experience.

Why? It is possible to provide training and experience remotely. Also, you have to be on Jobseeker's Allowance in Ireland to qualify for the WPP, so what was the guy doing living in another country?

clarelad wrote: »

Are employees supposed to be trained up when they start?

They should be. How 'formal' that training is varies from company to company. Mine consisted of a basic introduction to it, then "try this, call us when you get stuck", with a solid support structure. Other companies may give you a month-long settling-in period. Others may just throw you in at the deep-end. If the last happens, don't be afraid to point out that you're not experienced, and you're working for free. If you're not getting good experience, don't be afraid to walk away.

clarelad

Did you get a placement in I.T?

28064212

clarelad wrote: »

Did you get a placement in I.T?

Yep

miec

Its not a jobs creation scheme and it's not aimed at people with experience. Which is why Jobs asking for experience shouldn't be listed. It's meant to be aimed at people with no experience only.

I thought it was a jobs creation scheme, considering people are supposed to be offered a position after the nine months and the reason I am so negative about it is because a large proportion of jobs advertised require experience.

I have attached a word document

that lists 16 WPP1 jobs asking for experience. I chose to attach it because it would take up too much room here. All of these positions will exclude those graduates who have no work experience and furthermore, a few of the jobs are managerial.

I did the search out of 100 jobs today just in the Dublin area.

Here is an example of one WPP2 job I came across today that seeks experience

Project Co-Ordinator (WPP2)
Description:
Area of Activity: Maintenance Department. Elements of Experience offered: Job scheduling, complication of reports, site access submissions, equipment inventory, customer interaction. Person Specification: computer literate, good interpersonal skills, experience in similar environment preferable.

I may be a naysayer, but I feel in this instance that my negativity in this is wholly justified.

BostonB

Well if it was a chance for someone unemployed, with no managerial experience to get some managerial experience, I would say thats useful. Since it can be hard to get that first leg on that ladder.

But if you aren't getting any experience over what you have, but need your existing experience to get the placement, thats abuse of the system. In my view anyway.

I didn't think there was any expectation that a job will be offered after 9 months. Maybe I'm mistaken.

miec

Yes, it was set up to help companies during difficult times and work experience for the employee with the view to offering them a job at the end of the placement. When I initially heard about the scheme I was extremely excited and hopeful of participating in it. I thought on paper it was a fantastic idea, but it has since morphed into the system it is now. Additionally I cannot afford to take a placement, there have been a number of opportunities that I could have applied for but couldn't as I only get a part payment (I live with someone) and also would need money for childcare fees and travel in and out of Dublin. In essence this scheme is only viable for people who have no children and live locally. I appreciate that the employee and employer have the opportunity to terminate the contract at any point and that the scheme helps out some organisations but sadly it is being widely abused, it has caused nervousness amongst paid employees (see some of the earlier postings in this thread) and there is a serious lack of paid jobs on the fas.ie website.

The irony is that anyone who is long term unemployed can go on a CE scheme and you get a second payment plus the dole / lone parent, only work 19.5 hours a week plus get a €500 training allowance for every year you are on the scheme, and you can be on a scheme from 2 to 3 years) and half of the CE jobs advertised do not have the level of responsibility that I have seen for the graduate WPP posts. None of it makes sense to me.

Weepsie

Weepsie wrote: »

collected the first 2 weeks, but since then it's been posted to me as a cheque. you can also get it put into your account directly i do believe

great so just before people head off to Australia or NZ they could apply for this, work 2 weeks, fly off and for a while have dole money straight into the account....

other scenario .....get a friends/relative/whoever to take you on under WPP1/2 and get a full 9 months dole while you travel Australia & try get permanent residency there


wide open to abuse

BostonB

You think a company might notice you weren't there, no?

BostonB

BostonB wrote: »

You think a company might notice you weren't there, no?

oh i think so probably could tell them i need so many weeks holidays before hand what would they care? they arent paying who gives a damn?

If you started a WPP1 or 2 in the morning and decided you were only gonna come in mon & tuesdays and work a half day what would they do? nothing they arent paying ya

The state will end up paying for someones flight to Australia at the very least I guarantee you that

stupidusername

28064212 wrote: »

Why? It is possible to provide training and experience remotely. Also, you have to be on Jobseeker's Allowance in Ireland to qualify for the WPP, so what was the guy doing living in another country?

First you don't have to be on Jobseekers Allowance to qualify for WPP, you just have to be unemployed. Secondly I said 'county' not country. And I definitely wouldn't like to be trained into a job from a remote location, such as a different county or country. The company I was referring to wasn't even offering training, they said they expected my friend to join the company as an SEO expert.

miec wrote: »

The irony is that anyone who is long term unemployed can go on a CE scheme and you get a second payment plus the dole / lone parent, only work 19.5 hours a week plus get a €500 training allowance for every year you are on the scheme, and you can be on a scheme from 2 to 3 years) and half of the CE jobs advertised do not have the level of responsibility that I have seen for the graduate WPP posts. None of it makes sense to me.

To clarify this, you can get paid for the job you're doing on the scheme, which will depend on your dependents, for 19.5 hours, and YOU MAY be able to keep some of your benefits such as one parent family allowance or widows pension, but not your dole money. For instance I would get €216 per week, and nothing else. You don't get to keep your dole as well as the €216. But in fairness this is targeting the long term unemployed, which is at least something decent the government is doing.

Also can you give me a link to where you found the reference to the €500 training allowance, because I couldn't find that anywhere.

28064212

Deleted User wrote: »

oh i think so probably could tell them i need so many weeks holidays before hand what would they care? they arent paying who gives a damn?

If you started a WPP1 or 2 in the morning and decided you were only gonna come in mon & tuesdays and work a half day what would they do? nothing they arent paying ya

The state will end up paying for someones flight to Australia at the very least I guarantee you that

So you have no idea how the WPP actually works then? Why would a company let you work that, when all they have to do is go back to Fás and get someone who actually wants the position? They want someone who will actually work, they're not going to facilitate someone going on holiday. And you do realise that people on social welfare are entitled to holidays, so they're free to head off for Australia for a few weeks if they want?

28064212

stupidusername wrote: »

First you don't have to be on Jobseekers Allowance to qualify for WPP, you just have to be unemployed. Secondly I said 'county' not country. And I definitely wouldn't like to be trained into a job from a remote location, such as a different county or country. The company I was referring to wasn't even offering training, they said they expected my friend to join the company as an SEO expert.

Ah, my bad, misread 'county', and forgot they changed the rules to allow all unemployed people apply after I started mine.

I wouldn't have any objection to being trained remotely, provided there was a suitable support structure in place. The fact that they weren't offering any form of training is poor, but all your friend has to do is point out that he joined on the WPP, and it's ridiculous to expect him to be an expert. If that's what they're looking for, they're going to be disappointed, no expert in any field is going to apply for a WPP position. If they still don't provide training, he should leave them

BostonB

Deleted User wrote: »

oh i think so probably could tell them i need so many weeks holidays before hand what would they care? they arent paying who gives a damn?

If you started a WPP1 or 2 in the morning and decided you were only gonna come in mon & tuesdays and work a half day what would they do? nothing they arent paying ya

The state will end up paying for someones flight to Australia at the very least I guarantee you that

That just bizarre.

I assume, they'd let you go report you to FAS/SW and get someone who's worth their time, who will do some work for them.

Tiddlers

BostonB wrote: »

That said I don't think its a well thought out scheme. But the negativity on this thread is incredible.

You're absolutely right.I'm glad to see a couple of more people with a positive attitude speaking about the WPP scheme. There appears to be a lot of people out there who have no idea what it feels like to have had little or no work experience,to have spent months or years on the dole or the worry about your future & your job prospects,whether you're a college graduate or not,that goes with it. For people like that the WPP is offering some glimmer of hope and encouragement.

stupidusername

Tiddlers wrote: »

You're absolutely right.I'm glad to see a couple of more people with a positive attitude speaking about the WPP scheme. There appears to be a lot of people out there who have no idea what it feels like to have had little or no work experience,to have spent months or years on the dole or the worry about your future & your job prospects,whether you're a college graduate or not,that goes with it. For people like that the WPP is offering some glimmer of hope and encouragement.

I'm a college graduate, graduated last year, have been unemployed for a year, and all that's going in my area is WPPs. There aren't many prospects at the moment, but I refuse to apply for one of these shítty positions in which you are going to be working along side people that are getting paid to do the same work as you, when you get your measly dole payment. That might sound like I consider myself above everyone else, but I don't, I just won't work 39 hours a week (in fairness it would probably be more in IT) for 196 a week. And the job that I'd be doing requires substantial training, as well as considerably tough work.

If some people want to see these positions as glimmers of hope for their own futures then that's fine, but no one should be made feel the have to take on one of these because it's the only thing they can get. Most people that say you should be snapping up the chance to take something like this are people that haven't a clue what it's like to be in this situation.

It's a good enough idea on paper, but it was never going to work with the shíte government run services that we have. If this scheme didn't exist, in place there would be some real jobs, ya maybe much fewer positions than now but at least what would be offered would be quality positions that offer a person a decent useful job, WITH a decent wage, and possibly a more stable future.

AARRRGH

stupidusername wrote: »

I'm a college graduate, graduated last year, have been unemployed for a year, and all that's going in my area is WPPs. There aren't many prospects at the moment, but I refuse to apply for one of these shítty positions in which you are going to be working along side people that are getting paid to do the same work as you, when you get your measly dole payment.

Fair enough, but be aware the people who are willing to work for experience will be in a much stronger position than you in 12 months time.

When I graduated (1999, computer science), a couple of people in my class worked for free for a couple of months to get development experience. They all earn savage money now, and I doubt any of them regret "lowering themselves" for those few months.

Life isn't easy; sometimes you have to take a bit of short term pain for long term gain. You have to remember as well that as a graduate you are near useless to an employer.