ESB - Landlord trying to pull a fast one.

massplanck

Hi Guys

Hairy situation here.

I moved into a house in July and Landlord insisted the ESB stay in his name. Fair enough I said. 8 Weeks ago he rang to ask me to put the rent & the esb money into his account. I asked how much was the ESB? "About 300 euro" was the reply I got. I asked to see the the bill and he was flustering saying some of it was his. Two week later he dropped in the bill... 450 euro arrears on it from before i moved in. I paid off from the meter reading which i took when i moved in to the figure on the bill. 176 euros to be exact. 2 days later the ESB came and tried to cut me off. Luckily the guys from the ESB saw my side of the story and called the landlord to sort it out. I explained to the landlord the rest of the bill was his and this wasnt on.

On January 6th the landlord called to the house with a new bill.. the bill was from 17th of december. I looked at it and saw that there was still 200 euros in arrears on it & a new fee of 100 euros for 'visit' by the esb. I said nothing at the time, even though It looked sus to me and he went on his way. Now the bills get dropped to a postbox outside the house (not through by letter box) and I decided to have a look to see if there were anymore from the ESB. There was.. and although it was in his name I opened it.

So basically the situation is this. The landlord dropped me in a bill (3 weeks after it was issued) for 700 euros of which 300 + vat is his. Two days after this I opened his mail to find the ESB saying that the esb would be cut to the house if the full bill was not paid by 9th of January. Mental.

This is a crazy situation. I was warned about him by someone in the locality,
I moved all of my stuff out this weekend. And have not paid the rent for jan as I suspected something fishy was up. I have yet to tell him that I have gone. He has already broken the lease, it took him 5 months to get the heating in which doesnt work. You can imagine what that been like the last few months.

So where do I stand? He has 700 euro of a deposit which is more than enough to cover my esb from July to Dec. I just want shot of the place. I am going to ring him 2m
but I need to know where is stand before I say anything. I can put up with the ESB constantly threatening to cut me off because he didnt clear the bill before i moved in.

Cheers

Victor

Moving out without giving notice puts you in a difficult place with respect to you deposit. However, if there has been no heating (do I have that right?) given the recent weather, you are within you rights to demand he fix it "or else".

Will post more later.

massplanck

Victor wrote: »

Moving out without giving notice puts you in a difficult place with respect to you deposit. However, if there has been no heating (do I have that right?) given the recent weather, you are within you rights to demand he fix it "or else".

Will post more later.

Hi Victor.
I dont mind losing the deposit as I calculated that we would owe approx 700 on esb, if you include the 400 from that bill & the remainder uptill yesterday (took a reading before I left). I am not going to do a runner without paying my bills. But he can use the deposit for that

The fact is that there has been serious arrears on that ESB bill for months before I moved in which I was unaware of. You can bet that the ESB have been hounding him well before I moved in (last tenants left in Jan). They give lots of leeway. He has not been honest with me. He hands me bills three week after they arrive, and two days later I find letters ordering the FULL amount to be paid off within 48 hours or my esb will be cut off. I cant live like this. Been given two days to pay a 700 euro bill which is not all mine.

This is the second time this has happened. I have had heating via stanley fire/range for the last 4 months. But this is stone age stuff, no heating in the morning and take about 2 hours to get the boiler going. But in the lease it states he would have Oil heating installed within three weeks of me moving in. It was finally installed after 5 months. And blew up 3 days after he finished installing it. And when i say it took him 5 months. He tried to do everything himself. We had to help him work a consaw for feck sake. Hes just mean.

Seriously. I just want to walk away from it. In fact I already have. I am just wondering what he can do to me for walking out (without paying the esb). He can keep the deposit.

rcdk1

First thing to do is contact the Private Residential Tenancies Board (www.prtb.ie) for advise. They oversee all matters relating to renting houses etc. Threshold is also a good place to get info.

To do things by the book you should give him written notice that you wish to leave. Again there's a leaflet on this on the PRTB website.

Do you know if the landlord registered you with the PRTB? If he didn't, this puts you in a good position.

Mezcita

rcdk1 wrote: »

Do you know if the landlord registered you with the PRTB? If he didn't, this puts you in a good position.

Seems to me that the only reason the landlord would still have the ESB in his name is because he is not declaring the income on the rent.

Landlord has effectively broken the lease by not sticking to the agreement regarding the oil heating of the house.

OP seems to have walked away from it all. If there was any hassle from the landlord I would offer to pass on his details to the Revenue.

3DataModem

massplanck wrote: »

Seriously. I just want to walk away from it. In fact I already have. I am just wondering what he can do to me for walking out (without paying the esb). He can keep the deposit.

(With respect) I don't think the other posters read this part of the OP correctly. Contacting threshold / PRTB won't answer your question.

You are basically happy to walk away withOUT your deposit as you feel the deposit will cover amounts you owe to the ESB... you are happy to get nothing more, correct?

If this is the case then just walk away. A landlord like the one you have sounds like a guy who will not follow up. He may call a few times and huff and puff but there's very little a landlord can do in this situation. Keep any records you have (copies of bills etc) safe in a drawer in case he decides to "go legal".

I would suspect that a guy who will try and con a tenant out of ESB money is probably not paying all tax / PRTB costs due so is unlikely to want to go to any trouble to chase you down. Even if he does there's little he can realistically do to you.

If you were my tenant (and I'd never treat one like that!) I'd simple let him go, change the locks, and forget about him.

Agent J

Forget the PRTB in this case. Take too long.

You think your deposit covers your bills?

Walk.

You wont get a reference and the landlord cant touch you.
If he does then tell him you'll report him to revenue.

It aint pretty but its probably the quickest way out of it.

massplanck

Thanks guys. I think the word 'revenue' might have done the trick after he was threatening to call to my place of work tomorrow.
The only thing i did wrong was not give him notice. But considering the circumstances (esb about to be cut off & broken heating) i had to get the hell out of there.

Landlord didnt know that I was standing beside the ESB technitian in november when he rang him telling him to clear the remainder of the bill. He only cleared half the arrears after that. The ESB guy did me a big favour by taking my version of events that day (i showed him the lease & reading & receipt for the portion of the bill i had paid (previous one)). He said to me "now next time i see you it had better be in the pub". You can imagine how freaked out i was on friday to find the same situation happening all over again.

Thanks again. This country is full of chancers it seems.

PCPhoto

massplanck wrote: »

Thanks guys. I think the word 'revenue' might have done the trick after he was threatening to call to my place of work tomorrow.
The only thing i did wrong was not give him notice. But considering the circumstances (esb about to be cut off & broken heating) i had to get the hell out of there.

Landlord didnt know that I was standing beside the ESB technitian in november when he rang him telling him to clear the remainder of the bill. He only cleared half the arrears after that. The ESB guy did me a big favour by taking my version of events that day (i showed him the lease & reading & receipt for the portion of the bill i had paid (previous one)). He said to me "now next time i see you it had better be in the pub". You can imagine how freaked out i was on friday to find the same situation happening all over again.

Thanks again. This country is full of chancers it seems.

I wouldnt say this guy is a chancer ...its more than likely .... he's just another person who bought a place and probably needed to rent out a room to make the mortgage repayments, the guy is probably struggling (financially).

BUT

thats not your problem - he didnt treat you like a landlord MUST treat a tennant, my understanding is that you may not hear from this guy as soon as you get out of there, hopefully you wont anyway.

Victor

You could still pursue a complaint with the PRTB to get your deposit if there is no heating - as the property would be uninhabitable.

massplanck

Hes now threatening to call to my place of work tomorrow if i dont pay the esb. And saying he'd spend 10 grand pursuing this.

Here are the facts

Two year lease.
No rent book or receipts.
Rent is payed in via bank account.
Moved in July 09 - 700 Euro deposit
He rang in Novemeber to tell me to pay some off the esb. (i had never recieved a bill).
I requested a bill. I recieved it 2 weeks later.
Bill was for Aug 5th - Oct 7th. Arrears outstanding were 450 euro.
I deduducted what I owed on the bill by subtracting my reading from that on the bill. Added VAT etc. That came to 176.12 cent
I then told him that the rest was his arrears.
1 week later the esb came to cut off my esb.
Although i know the ESB rang the landlord. He didnt know that this situation had occured. The Technitian did not tell him I was present. Just told him to sort it out.
I left it at that.
Jan 6th Landlord arrives to the house with a bill for 702 euro. 100 euro of which was for the visit by the ESB Technitian. He told me he would 'fight it' The bill showed 200 euros still in arrears. The bill stated that 376.12 had been paid since the last bill. He had paid off 200 euro. Despite me giving him 700 euro in rent that month.
Next day a ESB letter came stating that the bill had to be paid in full by 9th or we would be cut off again.

Took 5 months to get heating in (19th of dec was when it was connected, just before i left for christmas holidays). Still not working when i returned. When it broke down over christmas he was out of the country until the 6th. Its a big old house in the middle of no-where. Think father ted. Its was -10 here recently.We he handed me the second bill on the 6th. He said "its terribly cold at the moment isnt it". told him calmly the heating was broken. He said he would get the plumber in again. This plumber was the most in demand plumber in ireland at the moment he was so difficult to get hold of over the last 5 months.Then i saw the arrears on the bill and i just closed the door. I should have gone mad. But im pretty non confrontational. Seeing the ESB letter the next day just made me say "get the hell out of there" he deserves no less. I was too nice to him.

Agent J

massplanck wrote: »

Hes now threatening to call to my place of work tomorrow if i dont pay the esb. And saying he'd spend 10 grand pursuing this.

Tell him to Bring it on.

Its bluster talk. Tell him if attempts to show you at your place of work you'll have him done for harrassment.

Tell him he'll spent 10k on fines as soon as you submit a PRTB complaint costing you 25quid.

Hes just trying to spook you. If he attempts anything walk right into your local gardai station and make an harassment complaint.

The gardai wont do sfa probably but at least its on paper.

If it was me at this point i probably would go through the PRTB process to have the guy fined and hassled himself.

Victor

massplanck wrote: »

Hes now threatening to call to my place of work tomorrow if i dont pay the esb. And saying he'd spend 10 grand pursuing this.

Have a word with your boss. Say you moved out because of no heating and his 5 months of messing about. You had no choice in this weather. Explain he is threatening to call in and would the boss make sure he doesn't distract you from your work. Apologise that things are like this, you don't want to mix work and private.

Not a hope in hell he'll spend €10,000 chasing you because he doesn't have it. If he had it, he would have fixed the heating and paid the ESB.

PCPhoto

massplanck wrote: »

Hes now threatening to call to my place of work tomorrow if i dont pay the esb. And saying he'd spend 10 grand pursuing this.
.

He might call you in work - in the event that he does tell him to contact PRTB or a solicitor (I think I PM'd you earlier)

turbot

Read your lease agreement carefully.

If he's this slack in his obligations as a landlord, chances are he hasn't customised the lease to suit him, and it's just an off the shelf version that includes clauses that protect you. He sounds like a totally unreasonable bully.

I suggest:

Send him a letter stating he only has your permission to communicate with you via telephone, and offer a correspondance address (relative). Explain to him that if he interacts with you via another channel, such as contacting you at work, he will be in breach of data protection laws, and you will report him accordingly, and quote the hefty fines.

http://www.dataprotection.ie/docs/Home/4.htm

When you call him, tell him that you are recording his conversation for quality assurance & training purposes, and then continue. It's not hard to make a recording via skype + software called pamela, or even with an mp3 player next to the phone with a voice recording mode with the conversation on speaker phone.

Ask him (by telephone and in writing) for written receipts for all payments made to date, and a full written calculation of the ESB bill, including all charges, itemised on a per unit basis. Cite in your letter the time you moved in and the meter reading you took, and the amount when you moved out.
Document what happened with the ESB, and ask if he made a mistake in his calculations or if he was purposefully attempting to defraud you by misrepresenting how much you owed in ESB charges.

In your letter, state that his non-performance of the lease as a landlord has led to irrevocable hardship from lack of heating, that has led to diminished life experience, may have affected your health and professional performance, the full consequences of which have yet to be determined.

Enquire if he has professional indemnity insurance (ask him for details of the organisation providing such insurance if he has it) as a landlord and state that you are considering all your legal options given his appauling failure to fulfill his duties as a landlord to provide you with a safe and inhabitable place of dwelling. Put in writing to him that the lack of heating has made the property dangerous to live in, leading to hardship, making it hard to maintain basic hygiene, giving you no other option than to find an alternative safe and inhabitable place to live. Explain that, his inability to fix the heating within a reasonable period of time (cite 48 hours) has led you to question his professional competence as a landlord.

Also, ask him if he has registered you with the PRTB, as you fully intend to claim rent-relief for your time spent there, and will pursue taking this up with revenue.

I'm not sure about the Energy Ratings Cert, but if you moved in in the last six months, I think he is supposed to have obtained one.

Note that - there is a good downloadable guide on the Public Residential Tenancies Board on this website:

http://www.liston.ie/private-residential-tenancies-board.html

Once you have said all this, ask for your deposit and a portion of your rent back, in lieu of his non performance.

3DataModem

Good advice above.

Bottom line; if he gives you grief at work, call the Gardai. Be calm calm calm.

Request him to submit his issue in writing.

Little A

I'd posted a long reply but lost it!!

Basically,

- he is probably not registered with PRTB, but that makes no difference, you can still go to them
- he is probably not registered for tax - not your worry, but a card to play if needed
- no heat is not acceptable, nor is "just about to be cut off ESB"
- no contract/rent book/reciepts is not acceptable
- LL having bills in their name is not always due to tax evasion, we had a couple of "runners" (blame the drop in the economy and cheap Ryanair flight to eastern europe) and now Bord Gais won't let me put gas in a tenant name (meter or I have to collect the bill directly)
- calling you in work is harresment so text and write (register mail) to advise him how he should contact you in future

best of luck, you sound like a good tenant !!

massplanck

I was a great tenant. As was my housemate. He took the micky because we were too nice and didnt give him grief for taking ages with the heating. He did a hodge podge job himself, rather than pay someone professional to put it in one weekend. It was the same with everything else. Cheapskate attitude, when he was onto a potentialy very very good thing for two years with us in that house. Not many people were looking to rent a place like that. We always took his word for it & beleived his excuses. Our patience wore thin. Last night he sent me a text saying he offered us a 'tree in a field' while we were waiting for the plumber (whos father died apparently etc) to come.
A wet soggy tree in a field half a km away that we would have to chop up ourselves is not central heating

I am dreading him coming in here today and causing a scene (i work in a big multi). Hopefully he has more cop on than that.

Regarding the Arrears. He says that the arrears on the ESB were from the last tenants who moved out last Jan. How come he didnt pursue them for the money then i wonder?

rcdk1

So OP, did he show up at your workplace?

Someone mentioned that the PRTB are very sloooowww and this is true. But if you're more worried about him pursuing you (either legally or otherwise) than the money aspect, then lodging a complaint or at least logging a call with them is the way to go.

The PRTB have a strong bias in favour of the tenant. Landlords as "professionals" in the rental market are expected to know and adhere to Residential Tenancies Act etc. Tenants such as yourself are assumed to have no knowledge of the Act etc and are given huge leeway. Apart from not giving written notice, I don't think you've done anything much wrong.

Your own troubles aside, you'd be doing tenants and honest landlords around the country a favour by removing someone like this from the rental market.

Cee-Jay-Cee

massplanck wrote: »

I am dreading him coming in here today and causing a scene (i work in a big multi). Hopefully he has more cop on than that.

He wont come to your work place, he's full of it, and besides what would it achieve. The matter is between him and you and nothing to do with your work...would they even care if they knew???

massplanck

Hi Guys. Quick update. I contacted a solicitor and he has sent him a letter.
But Yesterday I got a text from him, he was name dropping management at my place of work (a multinational) saying that he would get them involved. I dont know where he got the name from but this is starting to piss me off.

Victor

Keep the text and copy it to your solicitor in a letter or e-mail.

D3PO

A few thigns here OP surprised the first one wasnt mentioned

By opening his post you broke the law. I hope he isnt aware of this as that compramises your situaiton some.

You cant break the lease becasue he has outstanding bills form the ESB now clearlly you dont have to pay em and he needs to sort it becsue if you were cutoff then that makes the property uninhabitable and therfore allows you break the lease. If you ahve had no heating for the past 5 months though you also can use this same out. As mentioned you need to rasie a dispute to the PRTB.

As for him contacitng people in your workplace they have nothing to do with it and even if they wanted to they cant get involved. Im no solicitor but I would check if this kind of thing is considered harrasement as it may well be

Rulmeq

massplanck wrote: »

Hi Guys. Quick update. I contacted a solicitor and he has sent him a letter.
But Yesterday I got a text from him, he was name dropping management at my place of work (a multinational) saying that he would get them involved. I dont know where he got the name from but this is starting to piss me off.

Probably up on the company's website. Keep the txt, send it to your solicitor, and the gardaí. This guy needs to get the wake up call he rightly deserves.

Rulmeq

D3PO wrote: »

A few thigns here OP surprised the first one wasnt mentioned

By opening his post you broke the law. I hope he isnt aware of this as that compramises your situaiton some.

You cant break the lease becasue he has outstanding bills form the ESB now clearlly you dont have to pay em and he needs to sort it becsue if you were cutoff then that makes the property uninhabitable and therfore allows you break the lease. If you ahve had no heating for the past 5 months though you also can use this same out. As mentioned you need to rasie a dispute to the PRTB.

As for him contacitng people in your workplace they have nothing to do with it and even if they wanted to they cant get involved. Im no solicitor but I would check if this kind of thing is considered harrasement as it may well be

I'm not sure that opening mail not addressed to you is as serious an offense as it is in the states (where it is a federal crime), I can't find anything about it online, so I'm open to correction here.

daveyboy_1ie

Only read this post today and first thing I noticed, despite the empathy I feel for the OP is that very few people seemed to pick up on the fact that he did indeed break the law by opening post not belonging to him.

Hope things work out for him but I will relay this story about post, a few years back I was not recieving post to my address and after further investigaitng found out the post man presumed I was the same 'John Smith' (not my name but the same principle) with a very similar address in the same estate. When i found this out I was very angry indeed but was called back with huge apology from Post Office and wanting to know if I wanted to pursue the case further. apparantly the post man was about to face discliplinary action. I begged things be left alone as hardly wanted anyones job to go, they agreed but it was against their rules....you deliver to the address first, regardless who's name is on it.

I was then advised after i collected two sackfuls of post (college books etc., about two months worth of post) that I had a case against the other 'John Smith' and even though he did not open my post he was in effect stealing my property. I thought the whole situation funny and glad it was sorted (I actually got two copies of all college books from amazon when changed to my mothers address when I complained) it did drill home to me that if you open other peoples post it is effectively stealing their property.

massplanck

daveyboy_1ie wrote: »

Only read this post today and first thing I noticed, despite the empathy I feel for the OP is that very few people seemed to pick up on the fact that he did indeed break the law by opening post not belonging to him.
.

The landlord had been hiding warning letters from the ESB for months. I was almost cutoff in november because of this carry on. It was another warning letter from the ESB on the house I was renting. If he is not passing on this information to his tenants how would i have ever forced him to? Nobody can live like this. I did not do this out of spite,maliciousness, ill-will etc... I opened it because the information was regarding the property i was renting and had SERIOUS impications for me. It was -10 that weekend. And the heating was broken. I told him 5 days before I left that i was broken. Nothing was done. Thank god I find out I had a day to vacate before ESB was cut off.

I am getting really pissed off with this country. I have just moved into a new place and and although the landlady seems nice. Once again nothing is above board. No lease and more dodgyness. What the hell is it with Irish people. Seriously we need a good hard look at ourselves.I cant wait to emigrate to a civilised country. This place is a shambles. Where else would you be expected to pay for the bad investment mistakes of others with your taxes while getting my rights abused by them at the same time.

edanto

Opening his post is an important thing but let's just leave it to the side for now.

Turgon's post above is your best option. How much of it have you followed? Use it as your plan of action, and get on it. Follow everything precisely, including recording the skype calls.

All you have to do is write one long letter covering all of those points and then make a recorded call going over the same issues a few days later, and hopefully he will be able to give you some replies.

This is not going to be a problem as long as you ignore his attempts to distract you. Good luck!

massplanck

edanto wrote: »

Turgon's post above is your best option. How much of it have you followed? Use it as your plan of action, and get on it. Follow everything precisely, including recording the skype calls.

I initially contacted a solicitor but I think i am going to follow Turgons mail now.

Thanks.

the_syco

massplanck wrote: »

I have just moved into a new place and and although the landlady seems nice. Once again nothing is above board. No lease and more dodgyness.

Meh. Every place I stayed at (bar one, which was a converted shed) had a lease. Ask for one, or leave.

Agent J

Letters from the ESB are easily noticable. It says it on them and it has a recognisable font.

The tennat while they are living there is liable for the electricty. I would argue that he has a right to the information provided by the ESB on the usage while he/she is there.

It might be a techinical point about the letter but on the scale of things compared to the landlords violations of providing an unfit proprerty, no prtb regristation and probably no tax either.
Small potatoes. Very small.