Can anyone give me any advice? Chorus Issue..

NoDice

Hey everyone.

Sorry if this is the wrong place to post this but couldn't find a more relevant forum for this issue. Really at wit's end at what to do so hoping somebody here can help or provide me with some information on what I can do.

Noticed today when I called my bank that a transaction was made that I did not authorise. Checked my online banking and this amount of €35.49 has been coming out of my account every month since April 2008.. I didn't notice at all as I'm always using my laser card and never carry cash etc. Fair enough I'm an idiot for not noticing but have now landed myself in the worst possible situation.

Found out anyway it's going to Chorus. I have never set up a chorus account in my name. I'm thinking a flatmate I used live with changed this bill to my name (pretended to be me and supplied Chorus with my details as she was going through a mid life crisis lost her job etc and was moving back to Limerick) and left the house. When I moved I asked one of the other girls if she had it in her name and she said yes.

Now I'm down €735.39. Bank have told me to call to my own branch to canx the DD and to contact Chorus.

Rang chorus who nearly fobbed me off until I asked for a manager and she said she will pass on my details to finance to see what they say.

What does anyone think on this situation? Do you think it's something I should leave go, it's my own fault?

If someone, even a friend, said the above to me I'd think "how in god's name can you not notice money coming out of your account" so I do accept I'm retarded..

Is there anything you can suggest I do? Really really upset about it.

Silverfish

Moved from PI, hopefully get more advice here.

Cheap Thrills!

Put the fact you didn't notice to one side for a moment.

You have been frauded by your ex-flatmate.

So I would contact your bank and alert them that you have been frauded.

As no Direct Debit mandate was signed by yourself I don't understand hown Chorus was able to draw down the funds in the first place unless your woman the ex flatmate faked your sig on one.

Anyway, I would track her down and legally nail her to the wall. She is a thief plain and simple, mid-life-crisis or not.

NoDice

Thank you silverfish.

And thanks cheapthrills. I know you're right but the likelihood of me being able to track her down at this stage is slim to none.

I was thinking of providing proof of deductions, proof of where I was on the day it was set up (I was in Egypt on a holiday) and proof of where I've lived as I moved out the month after it was set up to chorus to potentially get some sort of reinbursement. Is that completely wrong?

Sorry if I sound really stupid here, I've never came up against something like this. Pretty damb trusting and always have money flying out here and there due to laser card usage so pay no attention to my statements when they come out.

Cheap Thrills!

Yes, definitely provide proof if you have it.

I would think the bank is your first port of call. If a Direct Debit mandate with your forged signature was accepted by them then I would think they are at fault.

There are procedures for fraud and you being able to provide proof you were abroad at the time the Account was created and are not even resident in the house any more are all grist to your mill.

Toots

The bank can do something called a Direct Debit Indemnity, whereby they claim back funds from an originator (in this case Chorus) for certain reasons. One of these reasons is 'charged without authority' which would apply to your situation. However, I'm not entirely sure if there's a timelimit for claiming on these. I've never had to do one for a customer claiming back over 18 month's deductions.

Chorus and the bank should have something with your signature on it authorising the direct debit. You can check with your bank when the DD was originally set up and request a copy of the mandate. You will then be able to see if it is your signature on the mandate.

Now there is another way of setting up direct debits called 'orig plus' whereby some companies are allowed to set up direct debits without getting you to sign anything, an oral contract. I'm not sure how you would proceed if this is the case (the bank will be able to tell you if it was a paper mandate or an orig plus one), however I'd assume Chorus would have to keep some sort of recording of the conversation.

I'd also consider goin to the Gardai about it.

wmpdd3

I think you may need to report it to the police (I know this may seem like a waste of Police time) but atleast then you would have a crime number.

Use this and the otherinfo you have to send a registered letter to Chorus giving them 10 working days to investigate.

NoDice

Thank you so much guys. Honestly your comments have been so helpful because now at least I know where to start and know what to look for. Chorus are meant to be calling me tomorrow regarding the fees. I asked the operator to check when it was set up, but that was before I checked my statements and did a bit of investigating and remembering.

I will contact the bank on my day off regarding the signatures and contracts too.

Thank you so much guys. Will keep this one updated in case I'm doing something wrong.

MunsterCycling

wmpdd3 wrote: »

I think you may need to report it to the police (I know this may seem like a waste of Police time) but atleast then you would have a crime number.

Use this and the otherinfo you have to send a registered letter to Chorus giving them 10 working days to investigate.

Sorry but the Gardai don't use crime numbers. :rolleyes:

jor el

MunsterCycling wrote: »

Sorry but the Gardai don't use crime numbers. :rolleyes:

There will be some sort of number though. Report number, case number, etc. :rolleyes:

NoDice

Thanks a million guys, I feel more comfortable and informed about the situation now.

Still haven't received a response to any of my emails from Chorus, nor have they called me back after my request yesterday.

I've everything saved and printed off regarding where I was when DD was set up and where I have lived. I'm thinking too that since I've been paying someone's bills surely the occupants of that house/landlord should have noticed letters going to the house? I dunno. Disaster.

A good bit more chilled today though.

Thanks again, will try another call to Chorus on my lunch and post an update.

foggy_lad

you should give chorus a day or two to do their own internal investigation of this and gather together their recording of the direct debit call etc

Cheap Thrills!

Yeh, you can bet your bottom dollar that heads are running around Chorus offices at the moment like blue ar$ed flies rummaging through desks/filing cabinets/the broom cupbourd looking for that Direct Debit and someone to hang!

Best of luck with it OP.

And yeh take it to the Guards, why not.

Dont give any original Documents to chorus, only copies btw.

NoDice

Thanks guys again.

Couldn't get through to Chorus on my lunch. First time I got through I said "sorry I'm not a member but.." and was hung up on!

Second and third time I was just on hold for ages so decided to send another email. This time much more professional with all of the details of the issue, stressing how urgently I would like a call back. Got a case number for this one so fingers crossed!

NoDice

Got a call finally from the person I was speaking to on Monday. She said my account details are attached to an account under somebody else's name. A name I've never even heard of. She also said my name is on the account too, very strange.

I asked if she was able to find a copy of the agreement, she said no and that it is an oral contract.

I said that at the start of every call I've made to Chorus, there is an automated message stating "all calls are recorded for training purposes" and asked if they were able to locate that.

She said she would look into the recorded call and speak to finance regarding a refund for me and call me back.

So it's a yay I think but not getting excited just yet!

Jet Black

Not all direct debit mandates are signed for. There is a thing I think its called direct debit plus were the agreement is made without a signature. I used it with irish broadband. Did not sign a mandate.

MunsterCycling

jor el wrote: »

There will be some sort of number though. Report number, case number, etc. :rolleyes:

Nope, try it and see, they'll look at you like a big buffoon.

Nonoperational

What a dose, hope you get some satisfaction there. I'd say see what chorus say but I'd imagine you might have to go to the guards and treat it as fraud if you are to get any money back (which I would do if it was me!).

NoDice

Ok so a bit of bad news, thought I'd post in case anyone was wondering how all went.

Chorus rang eventually and said there wasn't anything they could do as it was an oral agreement over the phone. They said they have obviously cancelled the direct debit and advised me to contact my local garda station asap. The agent also said they would be able to provide the police with any info etc.

I have (please don't slate me for this, I understand we would all do things differently) decided to just leave it go. I'm not chasing up something that happened two years ago which is pretty much my own fault. It would have been a nice and easy money gain if Chorus gave me a refund but they're not a savings scheme at the end of the day. I don't want to bring anyone to court.

So that's that!

Cheers for all your advice everyone.

foggy_lad

NoDice wrote: »

Ok so a bit of bad news, thought I'd post in case anyone was wondering how all went.

Chorus rang eventually and said there wasn't anything they could do as it was an oral agreement over the phone. They said they have obviously cancelled the direct debit and advised me to contact my local garda station asap. The agent also said they would be able to provide the police with any info etc.

I have (please don't slate me for this, I understand we would all do things differently) decided to just leave it go. I'm not chasing up something that happened two years ago which is pretty much my own fault. It would have been a nice and easy money gain if Chorus gave me a refund but they're not a savings scheme at the end of the day. I don't want to bring anyone to court.

So that's that!

Cheers for all your advice everyone.

ask them to prove you had an agreement with them? if they cant provide the recording of the call they must refund you!

amcalester

foggy_lad wrote: »

ask them to prove you had an agreement with them? if they cant provide the recording of the call they must refund you!

I agree with this.

I think (but am open to correction) but under the freedom of information act you can ask for a copy of the call where the oral contract was agreed, it will cost you €6.35 but it may prove that you never agreed to the contract.

MunsterCycling

OP They are not entitled to keep your money, they have allowed your account to be debited fraudulently and so are liable to you for the money they took in error.

MC

slimjimmc

MunsterCycling wrote: »

OP They are not entitled to keep your money, they have allowed your account to be debited fraudulently and so are liable to you for the money they took in error good faith.

MC

Important little edit there. But yeah you are entitled to get your money back and Chorus are entitled to pursue your ex-flatmate.

Sponge Bob

foggy_lad wrote: »

ask them to prove you had an agreement with them? if they cant provide the recording of the call they must refund you!

They must have a recording of the call where you gave them the direct debit details , tell them supply it or else you take them to the small claims court for every penny. They probably won't even show up and you will win as long as you sue UPC not Chorus of course

Not spotting it for two years weakens your case hugely.

NoDice

Sponge Bob wrote: »

They must have a recording of the call where you gave them the direct debit details , tell them supply it or else you take them to the small claims court for every penny. They probably won't even show up and you will win as long as you sue UPC not Chorus of course

Not spotting it for two years weakens your case hugely.

I know, I think I'd pursue it if it wasn't a huge mistake on my part. I'm so silly and use my laser to pay for everything so my bank statements are always about 15 pages long or so, never even noticed that coming out like.

I work in a call centre too you see and we only record roughly 80% of the calls, plus we can only check calls that are at most six months old. So I understand when the customer care agent told me they don't have that.

I don't think the old house mate did this as a malicious act against me or anything either so I don't want to bring up old news or anything.

keithclancy

NoDice wrote: »

I know, I think I'd pursue it if it wasn't a huge mistake on my part. I'm so silly and use my laser to pay for everything so my bank statements are always about 15 pages long or so, never even noticed that coming out like.

I work in a call centre too you see and we only record roughly 80% of the calls, plus we can only check calls that are at most six months old. So I understand when the customer care agent told me they don't have that.

I don't think the old house mate did this as a malicious act against me or anything either so I don't want to bring up old news or anything.

Hi OP,

This happens more often than you'd think

I had a similar situation where i was being billed 5 euros a month for phone insurance for a phone i no longer had and a company i was no longer with for 2 1/2 years. Never noticed it because it was such a small amount every month. Anyway I got it back after ringing the company and explaining the situation.

Anyways OP, I think you should get that money back, think about if you need a loan in the future, should you be taking an extra 700 euros on top of it just because someone else was having a hard time.

If you loaned that person the money would you expect it back ?
Would you take 700 euros off someone and not give it back ?

Regardless the other person is not your problem, Chorus have been taking money from your account without your permission, its only between you, the bank and chorus. If theres a fraud issue then thats chorus's problem.

1. Write a letter to your bank explaining that you never authorised this direct debit and signed a contract to this effect.

2. Call chorus and advise that they have taken money from your account without authorisation, you have never given Oral agreement over the phone or on paper.

3. If this fails make a claim through small claims court, its only a form and 15 euro.

OP, if you let this go its fair enough, but its easy to get lazy and let things go over the years, almost negates the whole being thrifty and saving thing.

Get your money back and stick it in a savings account and stick 10 euros every month in on top of it

Anyways, just to let you know, your not stupid, just this month i only realised i was being billed for 2 parking permits rather than one but never noticed because they billing date was 3 months off each other, so i thought the permit was for 3 months rather than 6, if that makes any sense

**EDIT** Linky for small claims:
http://www.courts.ie/courts.ie/library3.nsf/WebPageCurrentWeb/4F0ACA2C99B3EAC78025715C00517853?OpenDocument&l=en

NoDice

keithclancy wrote: »

Hi OP,

This happens more often than you'd think

I had a similar situation where i was being billed 5 euros a month for phone insurance for a phone i no longer had and a company i was no longer with for 2 1/2 years. Never noticed it because it was such a small amount every month. Anyway I got it back after ringing the company and explaining the situation.

Anyways OP, I think you should get that money back, think about if you need a loan in the future, should you be taking an extra 700 euros on top of it just because someone else was having a hard time.

If you loaned that person the money would you expect it back ?
Would you take 700 euros off someone and not give it back ?

Regardless the other person is not your problem, Chorus have been taking money from your account without your permission, its only between you, the bank and chorus. If theres a fraud issue then thats chorus's problem.

1. Write a letter to your bank explaining that you never authorised this direct debit and signed a contract to this effect.

2. Call chorus and advise that they have taken money from your account without authorisation, you have never given Oral agreement over the phone or on paper.

3. If this fails make a claim through small claims court, its only a form and 15 euro.

OP, if you let this go its fair enough, but its easy to get lazy and let things go over the years, almost negates the whole being thrifty and saving thing.

Get your money back and stick it in a savings account and stick 10 euros every month in on top of it

Anyways, just to let you know, your not stupid, just this month i only realised i was being billed for 2 parking permits rather than one but never noticed because they billing date was 3 months off each other, so i thought the permit was for 3 months rather than 6, if that makes any sense

**EDIT** Linky for small claims:
http://www.courts.ie/courts.ie/library3.nsf/WebPageCurrentWeb/4F0ACA2C99B3EAC78025715C00517853?OpenDocument&l=en

Wow thankyou. That was such a nice post. I understand your points here and I know I'm being a bit of a child about it but now I've left it go a bit too long.

Thank you very much though for thinking about it and responding.

Head The Wall

NoDice wrote: »

Wow thankyou. That was such a nice post. I understand your points here and I know I'm being a bit of a child about it but now I've left it go a bit too long.

Thank you very much though for thinking about it and responding.

I'll second what KeithClancy says. It's not your fault you didn't notice it, It's your flatmate and Chorus' fault this happened.

Go direct to Small claims court with it. Probably the easiest and cheapest option. Chorus will have to prove you received the service. That on top of the fact they have no record of you agreeing to it leaves the case wide open.

An oral contract really should not suffice for direct debits as we can see in relation to this issue. I bet if you wanted to cancel they wouldn't let you do it orally, you would have to write it in and wait a month

whiterebel

Head The Wall wrote: »

I'll second what KeithClancy says. It's not your fault you didn't notice it, It's your flatmate and Chorus' fault this happened.

Go direct to Small claims court with it. Probably the easiest and cheapest option. Chorus will have to prove you received the service. That on top of the fact they have no record of you agreeing to it leaves the case wide open.

An oral contract really should not suffice for direct debits as we can see in relation to this issue. I bet if you wanted to cancel they wouldn't let you do it orally, you would have to write it in and wait a month

Spot on, as is KeithClancy. Don't take this lying down, OP, its not your fault.