The Frontline: Statist Ireland and the Big Chill

Riskymove

lugha wrote: »

Yes, we were short of salt. But if we had bought massive stock piles of the stuff last Summer, you can be sure that the same whinging would be going on then about wasting money.

agreed, if we were stockpiling enough materials to deal with what happened in 63 every year since, people would be going nuts about the expense

its not that we did not have salt, its that we did not have enough salt to deal with the longest cold snap in 40 years

UK had similar issues with salt

I heard someone (can't recall who) saying that what he was offering was not suitable (can't recall why it was not suitable either come to think of it )

it was just the granite bit I think, not salt...there was no shortage of granite or sand

is there some "green hippie" reason as to why sand from beaches cant be used?

1. more like EU laws

2. SALT was the problem!!!! not sand, not granite etc


...there is a pattern here

Sleepy

ei.sdraob wrote: »

is there some "green hippie" reason as to why sand from beaches cant be used?

and anyone else remember the guy on RTE news few days ago, standing in front of a mountain of "certified" grit saying come and get it, and that no one is buying it of him??

AFAIK, you can't use some types of grit because it can clog up the drains when the thaw starts...

ei.sdraob

Sleepy wrote: »

AFAIK, you can't use some types of grit because it can clog up the drains when the thaw starts...

the guy claimed on national tv that his "grit" was certified

anyways the drains around here are all clogged up already

but thats a subject for another thread

Riskymove

ei.sdraob wrote: »

as for salt, we have a relatively warm salty sea water sloshing around our shores, can that not be spread around?

you want to spread water on roads that will then have freezing temperatures?

ei.sdraob

Riskymove wrote: »

you want to spread water on roads that will then have freezing temperatures?

doesnt salt water have a much lower freezing point?

for that matter boil some sea water and your left behind with salt

meh anyways dont mind me im just trying to come up with solutions, thats more than can be said of the state

parasite

ei.sdraob wrote: »

is there some "green hippie" reason as to why sand from beaches cant be used?

the foreshore act, afaik

gnxx

sceptre wrote: »

Backwards is something that is the wrong way around. It's a common word down our way. Or assways as we sometimes say in different variants. Wrong, of course, is incorrect. The two are distinct but not mutually exclusive. And assuming that gnxx remembers Gormley's statement correctly, Gormley's both wrong and has it backwards (ie, you can and a reversal works well). As distinct from backward, which I don't believe him to be but I don't know. I included it as an emphasis redundancy to be honest, I sometimes do that. It's a side-discussion tbh, PM might have worked better.

Just on this point quickly ( it was late when I posted last night ).

A rumour is/was doing the rounds that suggested if you clear snow/ice from in front of your property ( IE public footpath ) and later somebody slipped because you hadn't done the job properly, you were potentially liable. A person could claim that they believed the footpath to be free of ice/snow. If you left the snow, then it was "an act of god".

On Friday, John Gormley said he checked this out and it was complete rubbish.

This raises two points:

a) Would you trust the statement of John Gormley if you found yourself in court as a result of somebody suing you? Do you think that the minister would make a court appearance to reiterate his claim that the householder wasn't liable?

b) Why did it take two weeks before making this statement?

gnxx

ednwireland wrote: »

i've never heard such rubbish either, sorry but how much council tax do you pay ? the only local taxes in this country are motor tax and business rates, do you reallly think councils have the manpower to go round clearing every estate, when i was a kid everyone was out clearing the paths when it snowed.
maybe i'm just odd not expecting the council to do everything (and i'm not irish)

and as far as i can see the show was a winge fest

I'm not suggesting that every estate is cleared, but the main streets in most towns in the country were left in an appalling state for more than two weeks.

Euro_Kraut

donegalfella wrote: »

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Many other European Countries have even greater public welfare provision and yet do not possess the attitude you have identified. (I can speak from personal experience of German and Austria) One of my big gripes with Irish society and political discourse is 'Irish exceptalism' where by we believe that we are the only country to have ever faced our particular set of problems.

To be honest I think the 'moaning' is more from the media than the people. Cold, honest and non-sensational analysis of a situation does not give high ratings or sell newspapers.

InReality

AJ STYLES wrote: »

i agree donegalfella, but sadly this is the dominant mindset in the country which is only further propagated by this leftist media we have.

it will be hard to reverse this sense of entitlement.

Yeah especially the biggest selling sunday papers , sunday indo and sunday world .
left wing rubbish .

And of course the sunday business post .
:rolleyes:

imme

AJ STYLES wrote: »

i agree donegalfella, but sadly this is the dominant mindset in the country which is only further propagated by this leftist media we have.

it will be hard to reverse this sense of entitlement.

yeah because the Independent Group of newspapers, Pat Kenny, Irish Daily Mail, Sky News, Sunday Times, The Sunday Business Post, The Sun, Today FM are all so left wing.
I don't see any conspiracy here. Frontline sets itself up as a hard hitting news/current affairs programme, what attitude would you expect them to take, everything was handled fine? They took a position elucidated on Boards by others that the government (national and local) was found wanting at the beginning of the recent snow.

dvpower

ei.sdraob wrote: »

who elected the government?

It was the Dáil:rolleyes:

Permabear

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imme

donegalfella wrote: »

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I thought you believed we (Irish people or Irish state, not sure) were statist?

Riskymove

gnxx wrote: »

b) Why did it take two weeks before making this statement?

is it John Gormley's job to look into every rumour on the internet and publish legal advice on it?

ei.sdraob

dvpower wrote: »

It was the Dáil:rolleyes:

and the Dáil elected themselves in :rolleyes:

Permabear

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gnxx

Riskymove wrote: »

is it John Gormley's job to look into every rumour on the internet and publish legal advice on it?

I never said Internet. I used the term rumour because I couldn't think of a better way of describing this particular piece of "advice".

It was widely reported in mainstream press. Here is one such link but I'm sure if you are interested you could find hundreds.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0109/breaking27.htm

lugha

Riskymove wrote: »

is it John Gormley's job to look into every rumour on the internet and publish legal advice on it?

It was more than an internet rumour. RTE interviewed a solicitor who more or less said if you clear a path, but don't do it properly (i.e. give to understand that the path is safe to use when it isn't), you can be held liable. And I expect he knows what he is talking about. That doesn't necessarily contradict what Gormley said. Perhaps if you either clear a path properly, or not at all, you're ok.
Is there a lawyer in the house?

imme

donegalfella wrote: »

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I have looked at the Frontline ep of which you speak on the RTE Player (a wonderful resource btw, left-wing dominated RTE to be congratulated:D). The entire audience didn't get to contribute. I don't know the views of the entire audience. I belive those that were televised on frontline didn't universally have the 'government should do everything for me/solve all my problems' attitude. If for example a 5-km road in the countryside is icy and has 6 families that access it/use it. Should it be the job of the state (in whatever guise) to grit it? Should it be the job of the inhabitants who seek to use the road to keep it free from ice. It is a public road after all. I'm not saying that every km of road should be gritted, that would be impractical. I believe the programme raised serious concerns.

Macha

donegalfella wrote: »

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I could use that annoying Putnam phrase "social capital" to describe what we feel is lacking in our society - a sense of community, taking the initiative and doing something without an instant reward (be it monetary or otherwise).

As cliched as it sounds, I personally believe it's the result of increased materialism and advancement of individualism. The other day I was thinking about my new year's resultions and they were all so selfish and introverted (I want to lose weight to make me feel better. I want to learn another language to enhance my CV. I want to travel more so I can have more fun). So I said feck this and registered to volunteer.

I mean what do we spend our spare time doing in this country? Watching TV, commuting and shopping are probably the three main activities. It's all about personal gain.

Riskymove

lugha wrote: »

RTE interviewed a solicitor who more or less said if you clear a path, but don't do it properly (i.e. give to understand that the path is safe to use when it isn't), you can be held liable.

I never said Internet. I used the term rumour because I couldn't think of a better way of describing this particular piece of "advice".

Ok, I'll try again

Is it John Gormley's job to look into and publish guidance on all "legal advice" given on RTE or in the media generally?

southsiderosie

donegalfella wrote: »

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One thing I would say as an outsider to Irish politics is that it is not clear to me what the local councils actually do vs. what the national government does. TDs behave like local councilmen, and I honestly don't know what the actual councilors do at all, except wait for a seat in the Dail to open up (and I'm not being snarky...ok, well, just a little bit). It's unbelievable how personalized Irish politics are; there seems to be an expectation that representatives will handle things personally for constituents, rather than letting the bureaucracy take care of it (like in other countries). So maybe that's why there are high expectations of service in an emergency...even though that's the exact time that you need the wheels of local/national bureaucracies to work well. You can't count on your individual TD or councilor 99% of the time, and then expect the bureaucracy to spring into action the other 1%.

It's also my understanding that local governments don't collect their fees directly from their constituents anymore, so there is less of a sense of direct accountability (please correct me if I'm wrong here). So when there is an emergency, who is actually responsible?

The other thing I would say is that a blizzard, unlike, say an earthquake, is not an unanticipated event. One thing that the city (or whoever is in charge) could have done ahead of the storm was ban parking from main throughfares to make it easier to clear the streets and keep the buses going. They do this in Chicago when there is more than an inch of snow specifically to make it easier to keep the public transportation system running. And I have never heard of not being able to clear the streets during rush hour; if Chicagoans DIDN'T see salt trucks and city workers out during rush hour they would burn down city hall. Chicago mayors may get away with giving jobs to their in-laws and illegally shutting down airports, but they will lose their seat if they can't keep the city running during and after a snowstorm. Is there anything that an Irish politician can do that would make voters kick them out of office? Anything?

lugha

Riskymove wrote: »

Ok, I'll try again

Is it John Gormley's job to look into and publish guidance on all "legal advice" given on RTE or in the media generally?

In short, yes. Perhaps not every one, but if a rumour is widely circulating which is detrimental to the efforts of people to deal with the crisis, and the rumour is false, then of course he should speak out.

Dan_B

lugha wrote: »

In short, yes. Perhaps not every one, but if a rumour is widely circulating which is detrimental to the efforts of people to deal with the crisis, and the rumour is false, then of course he should speak out.

+1.
He was the minister for snow and this rumour related directly to said snow.

Riskymove

lugha wrote: »

In short, yes. Perhaps not every one, but if a rumour is widely circulating which is detrimental to the efforts of people to deal with the crisis, and the rumour is false, then of course he should speak out.

+1.
He was the minister for snow and this rumour related directly to said snow.

ok

Firstly, that solicitor gave his opinion and was probably hoping to drum up business. Gormley then gave his views on this. So whats the problem?

Neither are judges dealing with a case and to my mind there are many shades of grey here (for a start I notice we are now talking about people clearing their paths but "not doing it right" which I think is a different situation). Its not a black and white issue frankly!

Secondly, this "Minister for Snow" business is such a load of nonsense and is a perfect example of the attitudes the OP is on about here. "oh there is snow outside, what do we do? I am so helpless, lets wait to hear from the Minister for Snow...."


"I went out ill prepared with silly footwear and slipped and hurt myself...who do I sue?"

load of nonsense!

Permabear

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lugha

Riskymove wrote: »

Firstly, that solicitor gave his opinion and was probably hoping to drum up business. Gormley then gave his views on this. So whats the problem?

I don't see any problem. I also agree with the OP that there is a reluctance for us to sort out some problems for ourselves, but that doesn't mean the government should do nothing. Any given that we live in a highly litigious country it was perfectly proper and sensible that a government minister would reassure people on this matter. The only issue is whether is advice was wrong.

Riskymove wrote: »

"I went out ill prepared with silly footwear and slipped and hurt myself...who do I sue?"

I think the concern people had with respect to litigation was, who will sue me?

Overheal

ednwireland wrote: »

the only thing that did cross my mind is that the army should be on standby to deliver food and fuel to people in country areas (i'm sure plenty of parts of meath and kildare were hard enough to get to) as they have all terrain vehicles

You must be joking. You actually want to take the Mollycoddling as its called down to the point where the government by extension of the army is actually hand-feeding people?

is there some "green hippie" reason as to why sand from beaches cant be used?

Land erosion. And its not Salt.

The other thing I would say is that a blizzard, unlike, say an earthquake, is not an unanticipated event.

This cold spell was unanticipated though. Its snowed in Tampa Bay, Florida, at least once already. Its ****ing cold.

I think the concern people had with respect to litigation was, who will sue me?

Utter Tripe. you know who's sue happy? America. And we arent huddled by our TV sets waiting for the Marines and the Air Force to helimachopter lift us to work and tankroll the roads clear. Do some googling, look at some reports. Especially in the northern states where theyve seen about 9 feet of snow already (translation: 3 Metres) going out there with their own shovels not getting down on their knees and Praying for Obama to part the fields of Snow and bring them the warmth of his divinity bla bla rabble.

Macha

donegalfella wrote: »

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Well they do have materialism and individualism but also a sense of community in some areas. Nevertheless, I find it interesting that volunteering levels were on the decrease in Ireland but have risen since the financial crisis.

donegalfella wrote: »

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Well it's easy to fend for yourself when you have something. If you are welfare-dependent on the US that means you are very, very poor indeed. And poverty can lead to a breakdown in social fabric (crime, etc). But similarly, it has been shown that social capital, or helping your neighbours etc, is actually strongest in some lower-classes (ie in higher receipt of welfare) and a lot of the middle- and higher-classes tend to isolate themselves from their neighbourhoods.

donegalfella wrote: »

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It's funny because I see the Irish response as the exact manifestation of individualism where a person is not bothered about the community around them as long as they are fine.