UPC Ultra changed to Extreme due to unfair usage

muzzled2b

Hi All,

UPC just changed my internet package from Ultra to Extreme due to over usage.
The price difference is huge

Has anyone had any luck arguing with UPC to reduce the cost?
Ultra was originally advertised as Unlimited, with the usual terms and conditions, fair usuage, blah blah blah

Cheers,

Gdep

Dont think you'll get anywhere with the argument about the fair usage policy. As far as I know they are quite strict on it. Just make sure you dont go over 250gb this month and you can ring in for the downgrade. This happened me before and it was done no bother.

dub45

Did they warn you in advance before changing you?

This is the Comreg view of unlimited packages from the Comreg website:

ComReg would like to advise consumers that any provision of a contract which sets usage thresholds, or describes what constitutes ‘fair’ or ‘acceptable’ use, should be clear and unambiguous, particularly where the service is described as being ‘unlimited’.

Usage thresholds or limits should be clearly set out, as should the manner in which they may be updated or amended.

ComReg expects each service provider to implement a clear, transparent and policy for dealing with customer usage above any set thresholds. The policy should set out the rules for contract termination, including penalties, the charges that shall apply for any use above the threshold/limit, and the policy regarding migration of the customer to other packages, if applicable.

ComReg advises consumers to carefully read the terms and conditions of their contracts and to be aware of the particular limits or thresholds that apply before purchasing.

The bold emphasis is mine by the way.

From what I have read here before in posts I am not convinced that UPC are compliant with these requirements - thats why I ask abovle did they warn you before changing you? For example they dont seem to advertise the Ultra product as being available to all customers. They do not publish the cost of this ultra product anywhere on their website. I would be strongly of the view that these unpublished prices should render the products illegal in the sense that a customer should not be asked in advance to agree to terms and conditoins which involve costs that the customer is not made aware of.

One would expect that a company of integrity would ensure that all potential costs were made known to the customer - there are a number of areas in which UPC notably fail to do this - the present instance being a good example.

Cabaal

The fair usage policy exists because no ISP can offer a Unlimited service...read the FAQ thread for why.

In relation to changing you to another package, unless they did this without your consent I don't see an issue.

When I was with UPC I received warning letters which saiod I should upgrade to the next package if I continue to exceed the FUP or they would terminate my account.

Rulmeq

Someone needs to make an example of these guys with their use of "unlimited" It either is or it isn't it can't be both.

:sigh: Waits for someone else to bell the cat.

Cabaal

Rulmeq wrote: »

Someone needs to make an example of these guys with their use of "unlimited" It either is or it isn't it can't be both.

:sigh: Waits for someone else to bell the cat.

Its not likely to happen, you'll notice ISP's in the UK and other countrys also mentioned "Unlimited" even mobile phone companys often do but they will always reserve the right to impose some sort of restrictions or FUP.

"Unlimited" is perfect for the average joe, but then the average joe doesn't pull down 300GB+ a month in downloads on their ADSL or cable line.

Sadly bandwidth isn't fee
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=58094826&postcount=11

If you think I don't download much and thats why I don't care, you'd be wrong...there's a reason why pay UTV extra for the "Unlimited" option*

* Not actually Unlimited but more then the default 12GB cap.

Rulmeq

Cabaal wrote: »

Its not likely to happen, you'll notice ISP's in the UK and other countrys also mentioned "Unlimited" even mobile phone companys often do but they will always reserve the right to impose some sort of restrictions or FUP.

"Unlimited" is perfect for the average joe, but then the average joe doesn't pull down 300GB+ a month in downloads on their ADSL or cable line.

Sadly bandwidth isn't fee
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=58094826&postcount=11

If you think I don't download much and thats why I don't care, you'd be wrong...there's a reason why pay UTV extra for the "Unlimited" option*

* Not actually Unlimited but more then the default 12GB cap.

My point is that the word unlimited has a very definite and specific meaning, and it shouldn't be used... They should be forced to specify exactly what you are getting.

I'm not allowed to say that I'll give you something for "free" as long as you pay me for it. They shouldn't be allowed to say unlimited so long as you stay with in our limits (which we aren't going to tell you until you go outside them!)

muzzled2b

So i was talking to UPC, and they told me that i had gone over the 250GB acceptable usage policy on my Unlimited subscription, and this was in the terms and conditions, goodluck in finding that on the website, so i think a complaint to comreg maybe in order if they push this
Also they told me that they had warmed me by letter that they would move me to the Extreme subscription back last year, I never did receive a letter of warning

So on that, I am appealing the initial charges and have refused to pay the billl
They are now investigating and will get back to me, knowing UPC that will probably be in 3 months

thanks everyone for the advice, I will reply when or if this get resolved

jor el

How much over the 250GB did you go, and was this a one off or pretty much every month? You don't have to mention specifics, but do you know if it was a lot, or just barely. Did they give you a price for the Extreme package?

I checked my own usage last night and, somewhat surprisingly, I've been quite a bit under 250GB a month since moving to UPC. Guess I'm not the bandwidth hog I thought I was.

Wreck

muzzled2b wrote: »

So i was talking to UPC, and they told me that i had gone over the 250GB acceptable usage policy on my Unlimited subscription, and this was in the terms and conditions, goodluck in finding that on the website, so i think a complaint to comreg maybe in order if they push this

The 250GB acceptable usage limit is definitely in the terms and conditions, I remember reading it when I signed with UPC up in August.

jor el wrote: »

I checked my own usage last night and, somewhat surprisingly, I've been quite a bit under 250GB a month since moving to UPC. Guess I'm not the bandwidth hog I thought I was.

How do you check your usage?

Cabaal

muzzled2b wrote: »

So i was talking to UPC, and they told me that i had gone over the 250GB acceptable usage policy on my Unlimited subscription, and this was in the terms and conditions, goodluck in finding that on the website,

visit www.upc.ie
Bottom of every page as "Small Print" on the left
Which brings you to
http://www.upc.ie/termsandconditions/
You then click on the appropriate T&C's and there you go.

Or just click on http://www.upc.ie/termsandconditions/acceptableusagepolicy/ on the left

Hardly hidden

If you exceed your monthly data transfer allowance as determined by UPC, in our sole judgment, UPC may take any of the following actions, or any combination thereof:

* Impose a charge of 3 cent per megabyte or part thereof for exceeding your data transfer limit; and/or
* Upgrade your package to a package with a higher data transfer limit with the corresponding higher monthly fee; and/or
* Downgrade your upload and download speed for a period of one month to dial-up speed, with your monthly fee remaining the same; and/or
* Suspend your access to the services for one month, with your monthly fee remaining the same; and/or
* Terminate your account as per the terms of the User Policy and UPC Terms and Conditions.

so i think a complaint to comreg maybe in order if they push this

imho comreg won't care

Also they told me that they had warmed me by letter that they would move me to the Extreme subscription back last year, I never did receive a letter of warning

Thing is they don';t have to warn you based on the FUP T&C's,

So on that, I am appealing the initial charges and have refused to pay the billl

Lets hope you don't continue not paying your bills or they may suspend and then eventually terminate your service due to non-payment

Cabaal

Rulmeq wrote: »

My point is that the word unlimited has a very definite and specific meaning, and it shouldn't be used... They should be forced to specify exactly what you are getting.

I'm not allowed to say that I'll give you something for "free" as long as you pay me for it. They shouldn't be allowed to say unlimited so long as you stay with in our limits (which we aren't going to tell you until you go outside them!)

Accordingly to the ASAI what UPC are doing is not illegal or misleading, until this changes they've done nothing wrong.

If you have a problem with how UPC advertise then lodge a complaint with the ASAI.

You know all those mobile phone companys also have FUP when it comes to free texts...they also don't mention what the "limit" is

jor el

Wreck wrote: »

How do you check your usage?

I use DUMeter. I don't think UPC have an online usage checker. I've never seen one anyway.

Bu11et_Proof

When I rang up recently about going to 30mb they said there was 2 packages one for 42 euro and the other was 72 euro. I asked what the difference was as they are both the same speed and I dont want to pay 72 when I can get it for 42. He said one was extreme so from what they say its 72 euro a month for the extreme package.


I wonder if there is any limit on the extreme or does that have a FUP also....

They will be able to check all bandwidth usage from their end but would be nice if the customer also had access to this like Eircom have.

weisses

UPC in Holland are way more laid back with their FUP i know people who are using terabytes monthly with no throttling or threatening letters

Also the term "unlimited" was challenged as being misleading

120down/10mbps up 70 euros in Holland

recycler1

Cabaal wrote: »

Sadly bandwidth isn't fee

The answer is fibre, fibre, fibre.
Then, for all intents and purposes, bandwidth is free.

vibe666

weisses wrote: »

UPC in Holland are way more laid back with their FUP i know people who are using terabytes monthly with no throttling or threatening letters

Also the term "unlimited" was challenged as being misleading

120down/10mbps up 70 euros in Holland

the new packages upc just released are a prelude to the 60 & 120mbps upgrades we'll be getting in august.

devnull

weisses wrote: »

UPC in Holland are way more laid back with their FUP i know people who are using terabytes monthly with no throttling or threatening letters

Maybe so, but then again in these countries UPC didn't have to inherit such a mess that they inherited when they bought out NTL/Chorus

serarra

Bu11et_Proof wrote: »

When I rang up recently about going to 30mb they said there was 2 packages one for 42 euro and the other was 72 euro. I asked what the difference was as they are both the same speed and I dont want to pay 72 when I can get it for 42. He said one was extreme so from what they say its 72 euro a month for the extreme package.


I wonder if there is any limit on the extreme or does that have a FUP also....

They will be able to check all bandwidth usage from their end but would be nice if the customer also had access to this like Eircom have.

I've been having this discussion with them for the last two years. (To try and get them to give me a link to check data use, and if I go over the limit to slow me down, not charge me extra (illegal even if they say so, as I signed for something, and as somebody said, the other packages are not advertised and you don't get the letter until you already signed with them)

Last one, today. (Got charged as well on the "Extreme")

I do use dumeter on one pc, but have three of them, plus the tv, the wii, ps3,mediaplayer and two mobile phones, all of them use internet, so it is impossible to keep track of data transferred (and even with dumeter, it will read all the traffic, including local network)
According to them, it is for business and not advertised to general public.

The package Extreme that you have queried is not available to ressidential customers unless they have excessively high usage. It is our bussiness package.

Still, they did not tell me the limit for this package.

The told me the are working on a web page, but for the time being, to contact them (According to them is on the letter they send you, but I would swear I never saw it in there).

We are currently working on a usage tool to help customers to monitor there usage in these situations but as per our letters we ask you to contact aup@upc.ie if you want to check usage

In cany case, there you have the mail. Send them a mail with your account number and they will let you know the amount of data transferred.

Anti

muzzled2b wrote: »

Hi All,

UPC just changed my internet package from Ultra to Extreme due to over usage.
The price difference is huge

Has anyone had any luck arguing with UPC to reduce the cost?
Ultra was originally advertised as Unlimited, with the usual terms and conditions, fair usuage, blah blah blah

Cheers,

Yup im on their 35meg Extreme package due to constantly raping over 300gigs a month, got 890gigs last month(Line is shared with 3 very heavy users). More then happy to pay it for those speeds with no limits what so ever.

vibe666

for €40 (the price difference between the ultra & extreme packages for just 1 month) you could buy yourself a new router which will measure the bandwidth used by everything on your LAN.

google for wrt54g (a wrt54gl would be your easiest option) and ddwrt or tomato and read up on your options and you'll have everything you need to measure your data usage byte for byte regardless of if it's a pc, wireless laptop, phone or games console (like I do).



it will record your usage daily, weekly and monthly and back it up to a network share so you have all your historical data to refer to if you need to.

YES i totally agree that UPC should provide a usage meter if they are going to penalize you for going over a hidden limit, but spending 40 quid on a decent router to measure your bandwidth yourself would have saved you a lot of grief, time and money.

mehmeh12

vibe666 wrote: »

the new packages upc just released are a prelude to the 60 & 120mbps upgrades we'll be getting in august.

New packages in august-where did you get this information?

Also how exactly can you go over the 250GB limit in a month? I take it people are leaving their pc's on all night 24/7 yes?

hightower1

Seeing as everyone shares the same line I cant see how anyone here agree's let alone supports anyone downloading over 250 gigs a month!

Its not a company their hurting its everyone else on their line, they are all paying for speed but these guys are taking the line speed you all paid for at the same price basically robbing you of available bandwidth.


Fair use policies are there not to limit but protect the average user from the likes of this bandwidth hog.....

Getting slow connection? Need look no further than the person on you line sucking up every bleeding mb of speed. :mad:

serarra

hightower1 wrote: »

Seeing as everyone shares the same line I cant see how anyone here agree's let alone supports anyone downloading over 250 gigs a month!

Its not a company their hurting its everyone else on their line, they are all paying for speed but these guys are taking the line speed you all paid for at the same price basically robbing you of available bandwidth.


Fair use policies are there not to limit but protect the average user from the likes of this bandwidth hog.....

Getting slow connection? Need look no further than the person on you line sucking up every bleeding mb of speed. :mad:

Ejem.
Do you know anything about networking???
The maximum speed available is around 1.5 Mb/s on a 20mb connection.
If you were downloading at max sped, fair enough. But that will mean that you are downloading 3796.875 Gb (1.5Mb * 3600 seconds * 24 hours * 30 days)/ 1024
That is almost 4 Tb. Then you will be downloading at max sped (and so saturating the line.
Even if you download at at 10 % of that (and I will not call that saturating the line, as you are paying for the 100%) it is still 379 Gb.
More than the 250 Gb.
So, even if the limit placed by them is 250Gb, I would not call somebody that downloads around 300Gb a sucker. He is paying for it. If they don't have enough bandwidth, don't sell it then.

If you download 150 kb/s, you will download more that the 250 Gb per month allowed, and again, 150Kb I will not call it a big number.

Worst than speed on the downloads is the number of connections stablished (the servers can only process x amount) If you only download at 10Kb/s but connect to 100 different servers is MUCH worst (server overhead) than somebody that downloads at 500Kb/s from two places. (And it would be the same amount of data transferred at the end of the day)

And, following those numbers, you don't need to leave your pc on 24/7 neither. If you were to download at 1Mb/s (66% of your max speed approx) it will take you under 70 hours (or 3 days) to download all your allowance.

Cabaal

recycler1 wrote: »

The answer is fibre, fibre, fibre.
Then, for all intents and purposes, bandwidth is free.

Not really, who pays for the backhaul?

vibe666

mehmeh12 wrote: »

New packages in august-where did you get this information?

it's been well publicised all over the place, plenty of info on google and several threads in the broadband forum over the last few months on boards.ie

mehmeh12 wrote: »

Also how exactly can you go over the 250GB limit in a month? I take it people are leaving their pc's on all night 24/7 yes?

plenty of people do, it's not hard at all if you use the internet a lot.

also, remember it's down+up= <250gb so if you're torrenting and seeding to a 1:1 ratio thats's only 125gb downloaded per month which is only 4gb per day which isn't a lot at all.

there seems to be a bit of a problem here with people making the assumption that because THEY only use 'x' amount of bandwidth in a month that everyone else should too.

There are only two types of people here on this thread right now who have the 20/30mbps package with UPC. those who monitor their usage closely and keep it within the 250gb per month FUP on the ultra package and those who exceed it and are upgraded by UPC to the extreme package (without the 250gb FUP) at extra cost.

BOTH these types of user are paying for what they are using, so I don't see any legitimacy to any claims of bandwidth hogging here at all.

UPC introduced the 250gb FUP in January of last year. before that, there were several reports of people downloading over 600gb per month on UPC connections without so much as a peep from UPC.

I found out about the FUP in Feb when I got a letter off them asking me to reduce my usage or be moved to the extreme package, which I did. as you can see, since then I've kept within those limits aside from twice when I've gone over by a couple of gb here and there, but overall my average usage is well within the 250gb FUP.

just as an FYI to serarra, i'm not sure if this has occurred to you yet or not, but since you are now on the 'extreme' package, you should make the most of it and upload and download as much as you can since the 250gb FUP no longer applies to you. there's a couple of threads where particularly heavy users are paying the extra cash for the extreme package on an ongoing basis specifically for this perk, so I don't see why you should treat it any differently.

well, unless of course you plan on reducing your usage to within 250gb per month going forward (I'm guessing UPC will charge you the obligatory €10 downgrade charge) in which case you might want to get yourself a decent router (as I mentioned before) and keep an accurate track of your bandwidth.

serarra

vibe666 wrote: »

it's been well publicised all over the place, plenty of info on google and several threads in the broadband forum over the last few months on boards.ie

plenty of people do, it's not hard at all if you use the internet a lot.

also, remember it's down+up= <250gb so if you're torrenting and seeding to a 1:1 ratio thats's only 125gb downloaded per month which is only 4gb per day which isn't a lot at all.

there seems to be a bit of a problem here with people making the assumption that because THEY only use 'x' amount of bandwidth in a month that everyone else should too.

There are only two types of people here on this thread right now who have the 20/30mbps package with UPC. those who monitor their usage closely and keep it within the 250gb per month FUP on the ultra package and those who exceed it and are upgraded by UPC to the extreme package (without the 250gb FUP) at extra cost.

BOTH these types of user are paying for what they are using, so I don't see any legitimacy to any claims of bandwidth hogging here at all.

UPC introduced the 250gb FUP in January of last year. before that, there were several reports of people downloading over 600gb per month on UPC connections without so much as a peep from UPC.

I found out about the FUP in Feb when I got a letter off them asking me to reduce my usage or be moved to the extreme package, which I did. as you can see, since then I've kept within those limits aside from twice when I've gone over by a couple of gb here and there, but overall my average usage is well within the 250gb FUP.

just as an FYI to serarra, i'm not sure if this has occurred to you yet or not, but since you are now on the 'extreme' package, you should make the most of it and upload and download as much as you can since the 250gb FUP no longer applies to you. there's a couple of threads where particularly heavy users are paying the extra cash for the extreme package on an ongoing basis specifically for this perk, so I don't see why you should treat it any differently.

well, unless of course you plan on reducing your usage to within 250gb per month going forward (I'm guessing UPC will charge you the obligatory €10 downgrade charge) in which case you might want to get yourself a decent router (as I mentioned before) and keep an accurate track of your bandwidth.

I do have a decent router, but never bothered to hack it to include bandwidth management. It is up to UPC to provide me with a router that can do it or to give me access to a web page where I can check the data.
This happened to me before (and was moved back to the ultra) as I try to keep under the 250Gb per month.
What they hadn't answer, is showing me the data for January, where they say I went over the limit, when on December and January I was away 15 days each month. Any other month I would have believed it, but not any of those two.
In any case, as last time, if I keep under 250 I would be moved back down at no extra cost.

dub45

Interesting quite from their very confused website:

Why am I being billed in advance?

You are billed in advance as our service is not a metered supply but a continuous service. We charge for the supply of the service not the usage. Similar to utilities such as telephone companies, supply charges are billed in advance.

Even here they seem confused (why am I not surprised) They charge for the supply of the service not the usage - thats a direct contradiction surely?
Also they compare themselves to utilities most of whom after all do meter supply.

No utility as far as I know actually expects you to 'meter' yourself?

vibe666

serarra wrote: »

I do have a decent router, but never bothered to hack it to include bandwidth management. It is up to UPC to provide me with a router that can do it or to give me access to a web page where I can check the data.
This happened to me before (and was moved back to the ultra) as I try to keep under the 250Gb per month.
What they hadn't answer, is showing me the data for January, where they say I went over the limit, when on December and January I was away 15 days each month. Any other month I would have believed it, but not any of those two.
In any case, as last time, if I keep under 250 I would be moved back down at no extra cost.

well, i hate to say it, but i know just as much as you do that they should BUT they don't, and that's not likely to change at this stage in the game.

your occasional going over and then complaining isn't going to change that, all you're doing is costing yourself money and making more revenue for them when you go over.

if you DO already have a decent router (i.e. not any of the ones UPC have ever provided their customers) then check on the ddwrt router database to see if it's compatible with their firmware. the only person losing out by not knowing what you are using every month is you.

serarra

vibe666 wrote: »

well, i hate to say it, but i know just as much as you do that they should BUT they don't, and that's not likely to change at this stage in the game.

your occasional going over and then complaining isn't going to change that, all you're doing is costing yourself money and making more revenue for them when you go over.

if you DO already have a decent router (i.e. not any of the ones UPC have ever provided their customers) then check on the ddwrt router database to see if it's compatible with their firmware. the only person losing out by not knowing what you are using every month is you.

Yes I already gave up.
But the best way is to send them a mail to the address I gave, and if more people start sending the mail, they will have so much work that they will finally release the web page.
In any case, I already downloaded tomato firmware and will install it in my router...

Jumpy

serarra wrote: »

Even if you download at at 10 % of that (and I will not call that saturating the line, as you are paying for the 100%) it is still 379 Gb.
More than the 250 Gb.
So, even if the limit placed by them is 250Gb, I would not call somebody that downloads around 300Gb a sucker.

I am on DSL, so its not the same, but 10% of the line use is assuming only 10 other people are using the same segment. You might find in some areas it is a lot more than that.
My Smart account is apparently uncontended, however assumptions are that it is about 24/1.
Try recalculating at a similar contention. Its a standard a lot of the ISPs use.
I dont think cable contention can be calculated like that though, I assume every segment is different, but there certainly isnt only going to be 10, unless you are lucky.