Has Positive thinking caused the financial crisis?

ladybirdirl

Found a very interesting article in Saturday's Indo

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/blame-power-of-positive-thinking-for-the-global-financial-crisis-says-author-2006378.html

Basic theory is we all got fooled by the positive thinking brigade, bought loads we couldn't afford & hey presto financial crisis.

While perhaps some did go to town on the whole positive thing, I'm not sure us skeptical Irish could ever be accused of being overly positive,might buy the book though;)


Views anyone?

LB

MysticalSoul

The opposite could be said too - the media was so full of so much negativity, that IMHO, it drove the recession further than it needed to do, as it created so much fear in people. Granted, it was going to happen anyway, but the media certainly did not help matters.

bangersandmash

MysticalSoul wrote: »

The opposite could be said too - the media was so full of so much negativity, that IMHO, it drove the recession further than it needed to do, as it created so much fear in people.

What you might call negativity, many of us would see realism after a period of national self-delusion. If anything it took a long time for the media to change their position - they were still cheer-leading the boom into mid-2008. Do you not remember how RTE were slated after they showed the "Future Shock" programme? Or editorials like this one telling us to ignore the gloom? We even had our Taoiseach telling us that negative people should commit suicide. People seem to have very short memories.

Besides the lack of available credit and the collapse of the property and construction industries would have happened regardless of any positive thinking.

I too read that article and thought it was quite interesting. I wonder how many people genuinely made financial decisions based the kind of tripe written in The Secret, based on irrational optimism and the view that a rainy day would never come. And I wonder whether the same people would now agree with the flip-side - that if you find yourself in a bad situation, it's your own fault due to your way of thinking :rolleyes:

Darlughda

ladybirdirl wrote: »

I'm not sure us skeptical Irish could ever be accused of being overly positive LB

I dont see why scepticsm is neccesarily a bad thing as is suggested in your quote above.

Many of us watched during the heady celtic tiger years in disbelief and heard the non stop nonesense mantras and drivel from aspects of the 'positive-thinking' cult like thinking and mind set that has infiltrated defintions of spirituality and complementary medicine.

Certainly foolish optimism and belief in the never-never has payed a huge part in the debt crisis that continues to worsen. No amounts of rainbows and wishful/magical thinking is going to change responsibilities and reality.

Ambersky

I saw a review of Smile or Die: How Positive Thinking Fooled America & The World , by Barbera Ehrenreich in saturdays Irish Times.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2010/0109/1224261948187.html

Reading it I felt relieved to hear there were people out there questioning the well meaning but sometimes downright inappropriate culture of positive thinking. The author wrote the book after a diagnosis of cancer having been met with a barrage of books and articles as well as friends, strangers and health care professionals putting forward the idea of positive thinking as the only way forward -hence the title.

Insistance on always thinking in one way, having the one answer for everything is a fanatical stance. It follows the same pattern of all other fanatacisms, a belief in ones own superiority, a request for total belief, total commitment to the belief, suppression of questioning, repeating a series of set answers to questions critical of the belief, surrounding oneself with others who hold the same belief, reinforcing the belief by reading only books which support the belief.
It reduces the complexity of our feelings and the situations we find ourselves in to one idea.
Posing as a type of spirituality I think Positive Thinking is to buy into a kind of infantile magical thinking that is fine for little children but inadaquate to meet the adult needs of our lives with all its ups and downs.

At its ultimate is the idea that we create our own reality.
In thinking this we subscribe to our own omnipotence. We become God.
That is an awful burden to bear.
In the beginning it can feel empowering. In situations where our circumstances and abilities allow we can achieve much, by having a can do positive attitude. But a positive attitude is different from the idea that we create our own reality.
When we influence our reality we are part of a whole, only a part but an active part. When we influence we are honouring the reality and the possibility of loss, pain and death in our own lives and in the lives of others.
We acknowledge we are part of a very big world, which has its own patterns and which will go on without us.

I do think the culture of Positive Thinking could have contributed to economic crisis. We stopped honouring the shadow side, the cycles of life and death, the rise and fall of things and made Gods of ourselves.
Maybe now we will stop looking out there, put away the expectation that the Universe will deliver to us even more things and begin to look inside to find out who we really are and what are our values.

stevemcf

bangers, there're some good points you raised there. In fairness, you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. I never went for any of the positivity bull that was spun post 1985 - 2000 although its appeal is obvious.

At its basic form I guess the idea is that you can change the course of your life and thats a good start. Trouble is that change is difficult and tiring and hard workl something self help books do seem to gloss over a fair bit. And to be honest every step forward when you are looking for a new direction is met with a few steps back.

Bring back apathy. It's my favourite word. A good health sense of negitivisim can't do us any harm. No where's that Louise L Hay book....

Steve

stevemcf

Ambersky wrote: »

At its ultimate is the idea that we create our own reality.
In thinking this we subscribe to our own omnipotence. We become God.
That is an awful burden to bear..

I think this is a bit harsh We become nothing. We yern yes, but we still are what we are and no ammount of bull is going to change that. If I became God everytime I read a self help book I'd never put them down!!!

Steve

Ambersky

stevemcf I dont think its being harsh.

"I Create my own reality" is a basic tenant of some kinds of Positive Thinking.

The belief is that reality is an illusion and that all that is, is created by The Mind.
Your Mind.
All losses in your life are created by thinking negatively.
All gains in your life are created by thinking positively and drawing good things to you.
Things happen good and bad because you need them to.
It all revolves around You and Your needs.
You chose this lifetime and its good or bad fortune before you were born.
Countries chose their history.
Rich nations have people in them who thought positive and chose this lifestyle.
Poor countries choose to be poor and think negatively. If they chose to think positively they could create bread out of stones. ( I was at a lecture where I heard a spiritual teacher say this)
The people in Haiti created the earthquake that hit them today.

When you create your own reality all that is, is created by your mind.
You, the world, the things in it are all created by your mind.
You are the Creator.
You are God.

Remember I did say there was another way of looking at it and that is to say we influence our own reality.
Saying this we acknowledge our interconnectedness interdependece and we can let go of having to be in control.
Oh and sometims **** happens.

Darlughda

Ambersky wrote: »

stevemcf I dont think its being harsh.

"I Create my own reality" is a basic tenant of some kinds of Positive Thinking.

The belief is that reality is an illusion and that all that is, is created by The Mind.
Your Mind.
All losses in your life are created by thinking negatively.
All gains in your life are created by thinking positively and drawing good things to you.
Things happen good and bad because you need them to.
It all revolves around You and Your needs.
You chose this lifetime and its good or bad fortune before you were born.
Countries chose their history.
Rich nations have people in them who thought positive and chose this lifestyle.
Poor countries choose to be poor and think negatively. If they chose to think positively they could create bread out of stones. ( I was at a lecture where I heard a spiritual teacher say this)
The people in Haiti created the earthquake that hit them today.

When you create your own reality all that is, is created by your mind.
You, the world, the things in it are all created by your mind.
You are the Creator.
You are God.

Remember I did say there was another way of looking at it and that is to say we influence our own reality.
Saying this we acknowledge our interconnectedness interdependece and we can let go of having to be in control.
Oh and sometims **** happens.

:eek::eek::eek:

This is like worshipping your ego!!

Ambersky

Darlughda

This is like worshipping your ego!!

Yes Darlughda exactly.

And that is bad enough but I think the failure of this kind of thinking it is particularly highlighted when applied to people who are facing life threatening illnesses, like the author of the book, Smile or Die.
When faced with such an illness you grasp around looking for answers, a reason, a cure.
Postitive thinking can say well you created this illness now think positively and get rid of it out of your life.
Success would mean you get rid of your illness and the self help industry has many examples of people who have done just this holding out hope to others.
But what of those for whom the illness returns.
Did they fail?
It is not enough that the idea of creating your own reality has made some even many people feel better.
The very least an idea must put forward is to do no harm.
Are things not difficult enough for people who are ill without making them think that their illness as well as everythig else, is now their responsibility?
They can be left with the prospect of death, feeling like they have created this pain and brought it into the lives of those they love, failing themselves and all who believed in them by not thinking positively enough.

newklear

People's egos caused the crisis. Because the cautious minds were correct, this was not compatible with the mindset of the capitalist banker, who shoved aside all voices of reason to protect its own identity.

coolwings

There is another possibility that can be considered:
A boom and bust are flip sides of the same thing, so no boom = no bust, and every boom recorded in history ended with a bust (part B of that boom).

The boom was encouraged to gain votes so the government in power would remain in power, and in this it was successful for those who created and nurtured it.

And every boom (popular mass mania) modifies some peoples' outlook on life, and changes their outlook, retraining as it were, so it "fits" with the ethos of that boom, whatever it is (usually some version of greed/religious/liberalism/patriotism is good).

Every boom recorded in history has the people with vested interests in it saying the mantra "this time it's different".

Our bust is the downside but an integral part of the boom, it is the end of that boom and this bust was inevitable from the day it was started.

ladybirdirl

Darlughda wrote: »

I dont see why scepticsm is neccesarily a bad thing as is suggested in your quote above.

I don't see where I suggested skeptisism was a bad thing, I said I don't think the Irish are normally seen as being overly positive. In fact I think skepticism is a great thing

tkane

Hi all,

I just came across your discussion by chance and found it very interesting. I happened to read the article first mentioned. I suppose we all define positive thinking differently as the article seems to define positive thinking as ignoring reality. For me positive thinking involves taking stock of your situation as it is, accepting it (recession, whatever it may be), not wallowing in negativity or bad feeling about it but looking at it positively with hope, keeping faith in yourself, that you can bring about a positive change and taking action accordingly. That, I think, is a worthwhile thing to do. Having said all that I read the secret too and i thought it stretched reality too much. There were plainly stupid things in the book. One that I can recall was the advice that to get thin people should think thin thoughts!! Nonsense! I think some of the valuable 'positive thinking' or 'self-help' literature is tainted by this type of mumbojumbo.
I was also interested in the views in relation to creating our own reality. One poster mentioned that the responsibility that we create our own reality too much of a burden to bear. But wouldnt it be more scary if we had no say in our reality whatsoever. It seems that for most of us our reality is created by a combination of ourselves and outside influences. But having experienced periods in my life of both negativity and positivity I can most definitely say that whatever you are seeking will be much easier to find when you are relaxed, happy and positive!
Sorry for the long post but you guys really piqued my interest!

stevemcf

tkane, agree with what you are saying. I think any dose of postive thinking needs to be peppered by the realism of common sense and the nature of the human spirit. As life must be the duality between good and bad then so I know what I am. Big fan of Taoism here
Steve

Ambersky

tkane glad you are finding this interesting.
You mentioned someone who said that the responsibility of creating our own reality would be too much of a burden to bear.
I dont think it is an either or situation, as in either you create your own reality or you have no say in it whatsoever.
I went on to explain this after I expressed the opinion that to actually create your own reality would be too much of a burden to bear.

In the beginning it can feel empowering. In situations where our circumstances and abilities allow we can achieve much, by having a can do positive attitude. But a positive attitude is different from the idea that we create our own reality.
When we influence our reality we are part of a whole, only a part but an active part. When we influence we are honouring the reality and the possibility of loss, pain and death in our own lives and in the lives of others.
We acknowledge we are part of a very big world, which has its own patterns and which will go on without us.

I havent read Barbera Ehrenreichs book Smile or Die: How Positive Thinking Fooled America & The World but from the article I gather that she isnt just writing about a number of individuals considering positive thinking as ignoring reality.

She is writing about something more insidious than that

It is one thing for an aspirant entrepreneur to follow instructions for making his or her own “talisman of prosperity” (though it is certainly rather sad) and quite another for whole corporate workforces to be cowed into submission by the demand that they appear upbeat.

Americans, and by extension the rest of us, can now be “fired for anything, such as failing to generate positive vibes”. Ehrenreich argues persuasively that since the “downsizing” craze of the 1980s the ideology of positive thinking has been used to quash workers’ disaffection and rubbish the grievances of ex-workers, who clearly failed to evince the requisite faith in themselves and the market.

Nowhere has this toxic optimism done more obvious damage than in the vanishing Neverland of home-ownership and easy credit. In the US, Ehrenreich tells us, poor black congregations were actively encouraged by positive-thinking preachers to enter into ruinous debt, in the fond belief that their aspirations were not only logical but divinely sanctioned.

I did a Google search just now and came up with this from the Wall Street Journal * DECEMBER 1, 2008

How to Combat a Banking Crisis: First, Round Up the Pessimists
Latvian Agents Detain a Gloomy Economist; 'It Is a Form of Deterrence'

And on our own shores in 2007
"Mr Ahern told delegates that he could not understand why people making gloomy predictions about the economy didn't commit suicide."

New Age thinking tends to focus on mantras designed to act as answers or ways to live focusing on the individual.
Ive been concentrating here on the positive thinking mantra I Create My Own Reality, there are many more.
Within New Age thinking the individual is primary everything is ok if it workes "for me"
Unfortunatley this focus on the individual often lead to a disinterest in the implications of such mantras for wider society.
Im not now a christian but the Jesus I like is the revolutionary Jesus, who stands for the poor and the oppressed.
New Age spirituality to my mind focuses on the individual, the me, and ignores the real workings of social circumstances and economics. Even worse "prosperity thinking" is often taught by middle class people who, ignoring their own class privileges, offer it as an answer to poor desperate people wanting to find a way out of their troubles.
Its like the Lotto, so many poor people will spend from the little they have to buy into the dream that they could win and all their troubles would be over. Its not untrue. Someone does win but it would be unwise to put the Lotto forward as the answer to poverty in Ireland.

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fontanalis

Hopefully 2010 will be the year of reality instead of optimism aka the universe owes me riches beyond my wildest dreams.

dermothickey

It seems like a lot of what is positive thinking is the get rich ideas that people had. This was where some were teaching that positive thinking is going to lead to wealth. This is something that is not in line with genuine positive feeling. There is a difference...thinking positive is what it is it is thinking positive...feeling positive ahhh that is different...no monetary or material wealth can have you feeling positive 24 hours a day. Feeling positive is more in tune with the divine. So the whole notion was just simply taken up wrong. The trust was in your thoughts, not your feeling, Now if we really had a choice to feel positive or think positive which would we choose. Most unfortunately would choose to think positive as it gives them something to do..control over themselves etc... Those that would choose positive feeling simply surrender their wants and just enjoy feeling positive... Like the nice old lady at the bus stop who brightens your day by smiling warmly at you..she just shared a positive feeling..so tomorrow rather than thinking positive, just share the positive feeling within you with others...its definitely worth more to you than money.

Darlughda

I'm not so sure that thinking positive is in tune with the divine.

Certainly there seems to be an element of where hope, faith and prayer can seem to intercede to create a favourable outcome, but I suspect divinity in itself holds all aspects of negativity and positivity.

Now. I consider myself an atheist, yet am a bit of a poor one, because I do think there is some divinity in creation.

Not deities or gods/godesses of any kind or description, but something that resonates with the highest and purest intention of prayer or intent that we may have.

Having said that, after reading Barbara Ehrenreich's book I am convinced there is a cult of 'positive' thinking that deludes people and deliberately stifles others from saying what is real.

dermothickey

As I said "thinking" positive is just what it is it's "thinking" positive...Feeling positive is more in tume with the divine as it is feeling..

So thinking positive stems from the brain, which lets face it has a lot of judgements ideas wants desires etc, which may not always be what's best for us. A baby smiles happily at least 200 times a day even though its brain hasn't yet developed. Though when a baby smiles everyone in the room smiles too simply because they feel the happiness and joy from the baby. This is feeling. As we grow older we use our brain more and more and tend to smile when we get what we want or if we are looking for something off someone, or when we hear a funny joke, but from time to time without any reason we may just have one of those feel good days, it tends to come from within. No thoughts led us to be happy we just are, like when you meet a friend you havent seen in a long while you feel joyful and that warm open feeling in the centre of your chest..thats feeling we are meant to have that all the time