Bertie Ahern-good taoiseach?

trapsagenius

kbannon wrote: »

eh?

He had no mandate for government.Fianna Fail were in with Labour and at the end of 1994 the Labour party left the coalition and hopped into bed with FG.No election-the Dail wasn't dissolved.Only time its happened in the history of the state that a government came to power without being elected.

Riddle101

Something i've noticed is that a lot of people have become softer towards Bertie Ahern ever since Brian Cowen started going downhill. There's actually a page on Facebook saying "BRING BACK BERTIE AHERN" which to me is just sad. I mean are people suddenly getting Amnesia or something, that they can't remember what Bertie was like before Brian Cowen. make no mistake about it, Bertie is just as bad Brian Cowen. The only reason people want him back is because they remember how good life used to be when he was in charge so they think he'll make the country better again. But he won't, Bertie won't be able to fix the country any more then anyone else. Bertie is still a thief and prat and I don't think he was a good Taosiach.

Liam Byrne

trapsagenius wrote: »

God i have to laugh, you've convinced me now.Meet me in Dublin tomorrow and we can march down to Leinster House and do away with this democracy rubbish!:rolleyes:

No - just do away with the ones there who are breaking the law by staying elected while not being tax-compliant.

Actually, you'd probably be going to the wrong place, considering said-same conman dosses off work (while we're still paying him for work) using a car and driver paid for by us to flog his work of fiction.

Seth Brundle

@ trapsagenius - Was he elected to the Dáil?

trapsagenius

Liam Byrne wrote: »

How do you make that out ? For a start, he didn't fool us, so immediately that's not "all".

And considering that FF didn't get an overall majority (for the first time in their history) there were lots of other people that weren't fooled, either.

Did he manage to fool maybe 20% of people, combining that with the 20% hardliners ?

Probably. But that's far from "all".

Haughey was the first FF leader who went into a coalition-this was in 1989 with the PD's.Reynolds was in coalition with Labour.Haughey also never earned an overall majority-he inherited one from Lynch.I also think i'm correct in saying that every FF leader led a minority government(besides possibly Lynch-i'm not sure).So to say that Bertie was the first FF leader who didn't get an overall majority is absolute nonsense.

Arnold Layne

trapsagenius wrote: »

He won THREE elections in a row.Even if in 1997 people didn't know what to expect, in 2002 and 2007, a majority of voting adults approved of Fianna Fails policies.In fact in 2002 Fianna Fail increased their number of seats by 4.

Just because he was good for Fianna Fail and its cronies does not make him a good taoiseach. He was not good for the country, caving into unions by throwing money at them, defending the Paeodophile Residents In Every Small Town and making sure the Church did not have to pay.

Great Taoiseach for FF cronies, noone else

Liam Byrne

trapsagenius wrote: »

Haughey was the first FF leader who went into a coalition-this was in 1989 with the PD's.Reynolds was in coalition with Labour.Haughey also never earned an overall majority-he inherited one from Lynch.I also think i'm correct in saying that every FF leader led a minority government(besides possibly Lynch-i'm not sure).So to say that Bertie was the first FF leader who didn't get an overall majority is absolute nonsense.

I stand corrected.

That doesn't take from the fact that (a) your "majority" statement is incorrect and (b) your "fool all the people" statement is incorrect.

trapsagenius

kbannon wrote: »

@ trapsagenius - Was he elected to the Dáil?

He was elected to the Dail, yes.But after the election in 1992 Labour went into government with FF but subsequently jumped ship in 1994.Maybe i should have said Bruton never won an election to be Taoiseach.

Liam Byrne

trapsagenius wrote: »

He was elected to the Dail, yes.But after the election in 1992 Labour went into government with FF but subsequently jumped ship in 1994.Maybe i should have said Bruton never won an election to be Taoiseach.

Much like Cowen, then ?

Het-Field

trapsagenius wrote: »

Something i've noticed since Bertie Ahern has resigned as Taoiseach is that he is blamed in many quarters for 'wasting' the boom years. So my question here is how many people out there still believe he WAS a good Taoiseach.Personally, i still think he was a good taoiseach.He presided over the biggest economic boom in Irish history and it's only since he left that the Irish economy has gone down the tubes. (I mean,he won 3 elections in a row and was the 2nd longest serving Taoiseach since the foundation of the state so he must have been doing something right).But what does everyone else think-good Taoiseach or not??All comments appreciated.

That quote suggests you know little or nothing about politics. Bertie's departure did coincide with the collapse, but the collapse was in place, and all that was need was the catyalist i.e. the banking collapse.

-Bertie artificially increased wages through the social partnership sham
-Bertie refused to take on the Unions
-Bertie's premiership was predicated on the property boom once he moved Harney, McCreevy and Brennan from the economic and infrastructural portfolios.
-Bertie allowed this boom to be primed by ignoring sham banking practices, and light touch regulation. It wasnt in his interest to do otherwise


Bertie crippled a fine export driven, productive economy in the name of short term populism. He equally had the gall to tell us that the "boom would get boomier".

A shambles of a leader, who masked this by crippling the country financially.

paddyland

He also stands accused of one very specific occasion of outright corruption, the receipt of money for favours relating to a planning development on Dublin's southside. This is not only a sacking offence, but if convicted, conceiveably a jailing offence similar to Ray Burke, Liam Lawlor, et al.

True to form, it appears that some of those who might testify to this effect, seem to find various reasons not to. In this country, a whole book of lies can be written and held up as a whitewash of somebody's life, however incredible. However one word of truth about them cannot be held up in the same way without unequivocal evidence that stands up in a court of law. That evidence is the word of witnesses who have too much to lose.

History WILL deliver the true, full, rotten legacy of Bertie Ahern, in all it's shame. However, we may well have to wait years for that. In the meantime, Bertie can live out his lie.

trapsagenius

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I stand corrected.

That doesn't take from the fact that (a) your "majority" statement is incorrect and (b) your "fool all the people" statement is incorrect.

Ok, i'll put my hands up and say-what i should have said was "in 3 succesive elections more people in Ireland approved of FF than approved of any one other party".

Fighting Irish

Him and his banking buddies made me get a huge mortgage to buy a house and he personally made me buy a brand new car on my credit card!!!!!
And now i lost my job and have trouble paying off my loans, i'm not really sure about who's fault it was i lost my job, but it was defo either Berti or the teachers!!!!!

Seth Brundle

@ Fighting Irish - did you forget the smiley?

trapsagenius

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Much like Cowen, then ?

Exactly like Cowen.And cowen is useless.

Atwork

I think Bertie has joined boards;)

Fighting Irish

Not that Berti is the dogs bollix, but most things he is blamed for are bull****

Fighting Irish

kbannon wrote: »

@ Fighting Irish - did you forget the smiley?

I added !!!!! instead of a smiley

Het-Field

Fighting Irish wrote: »

Not that Berti is the dogs bollix, but most things he is blamed for are bull****

So he didnt sanction 10% increases in public expenditure for each of the past five years ?

So he didnt ignore the slimy banking practices which fly in the face of sensible private business practice ?

So he didnt engage in hubris projects such as the "Bertie Bowl" to endeer himself to the ordinary man ?

So he didnt choose to line the pockets of developers to the detriment of the factors of productivity, and then live off Capital Gains Tax, Stamp Duty, and VAT, to fuel an artificial boom ?

trapsagenius

Atwork wrote: »

I think Bertie has joined boards;)

LOL

Fighting Irish wrote: »

Not that Berti is the dogs bollix, but most things he is blamed for are bull****

Sorry i don't really understand this comment.Please elaborate.(But is someone actually [kind of] agreeing with me?!?)

Rebelheart

Liam Byrne wrote: »

No.

He was the epitome of a pass-the-buck politician, appearing to promise everything to everyone, but delivering nothing of substance (I remember FF promising "zero tolerance" - ironically via John O'Donoghue - under his reign).

He also ignored the warnings about the impending implosion.

He also has unexplained finances.

He also was Minister for Finance and signed blank cheques for Haughey.

He also couldn't give a straight answer to anything (and still can't).

He could talk for hours and you still wouldn't have heard much more than clichés or contradicting statements.

He gave jobs to ill-qualified friends (his own admission, stunningly rarely commented on acted upon as the nepotistic corruption that it is).

He did not "lead"; he followed the money and the votes.

So - to reiterate. Absolutely not.

Liam, you don't like Patrick Bartholomew Ahern? Seriously?

Liam Byrne

Rebelheart wrote: »

Liam, you don't like Patrick Bartholomew Ahern? Seriously?

Listing facts shouldn't give much of an indication of whether I do or not.

Having said that, the fact is that because of all the facts, I'd have to say no, I don't.

uklid

Bertie was a brilliant leader in his first term in office. He secured the peace agreement in the north and he introduced economic policies that "kick started" the economic boom.

The problem for Bertie arose when the foolish citizens started to squander their new found wealth on every manner of trash imagenable and drove prices and the cost of living "through the roof".

(We behaved like small children given access to to much sweets)

You cannot directly blame a Government for the actions (for example) of people who borrowed about two hundred thousand euro on the strength of their high wages and bougth apartments in Bulgaria which are now worth less than thirty thousand euro.

Bertie's mistake was made in his second term when he should have bruoght in heavy (and unpopular) taxes that would have stopped or limited our ability to waste money.
The additional tax revinue could have been used to improve our health. service.
Citizens need to be protected from their own follies.
Of course it is easy to be wise after the event.
Wuold Michael Noone have acted differently? I dont think so.

Het-Field

uklid wrote: »

Bertie was a brilliant leader in his first term in office. He secured the peace agreement in the north and he introduced economic policies that "kick started" the economic boom.

The problem for Bertie arose when the foolish citizens started to squander their new found wealth on every manner of trash imagenable and drove prices and the cost of living "through the roof".

(We behaved like small children given access to to much sweets)

You cannot directly blame a Government for the actions (for example) of people who borrowed about two hundred thousand euro on the strength of their high wages and bougth apartments in Bulgaria which are now worth less than thirty thousand euro.

Bertie's mistake was made in his second term when he should have bruoght in heavy (and unpopular) taxes that would have stopped or limited our ability to waste money.
The additional tax revinue could have been used to improve our health. service.
Citizens need to be protected from their own follies.
Of course it is easy to be wise after the event.
Wuold Michael Noone have acted differently? I dont think so.

The phrase "head up one's arse" comes to mind.

You suggest regulation by those who couldnt regulate the hub of our economic structures. You are a gas man.

Rebelheart

trapsagenius wrote: »

Something i've noticed since Bertie Ahern has resigned as Taoiseach is that he is blamed in many quarters for 'wasting' the boom years. So my question here is how many people out there still believe he WAS a good Taoiseach.Personally, i still think he was a good taoiseach.He presided over the biggest economic boom in Irish history and it's only since he left that the Irish economy has gone down the tubes. (I mean,he won 3 elections in a row and was the 2nd longest serving Taoiseach since the foundation of the state so he must have been doing something right).But what does everyone else think-good Taoiseach or not??All comments appreciated.

At the top of my road is a place known to all and sundry as "the Gallow's Hill", so-called because a slew of lads were taken there following the huge battle in Tara in '98 and quickly departed this world as a result. That is too noble a death for Patrick Bartholomew Ahern, who would have knighted himself, Eoghan Harris and Paddy the Plasterer (among others) had he been able to get away with establishing his "honours" system a few years ago.


I much prefer the sentence given by one Francis Pemberton in 1681 to one Oliver Plunkett as a fitting end to Patrick Bartholomew Ahern:

'And therefore you must go from hence to the place from whence you came, that is to Newgate, and from thence you shall be drawn through the city of London to Tyburn; there you shall be hanged by the neck, but cut down before you are dead, your bowels shall be taken out and burnt before your face, your head shall be cut off, and your body be divided into four quarters…'

That man, "Bertie" as he is affectionately known to benighted souls who still don't comprehend the damage he has done to the economic, social and political fabric of our community, has left an unprecedented mess in his wake. Generations of Irish people will be paying for the consequences of his period in office.

Fighting Irish

Het-Field wrote: »

So he didnt sanction 10% increases in public expenditure for each of the past five years ?

So he didnt ignore the slimy banking practices which fly in the face of sensible private business practice ?

So he didnt engage in hubris projects such as the "Bertie Bowl" to endeer himself to the ordinary man ?

So he didnt choose to line the pockets of developers to the detriment of the factors of productivity, and then live off Capital Gains Tax, Stamp Duty, and VAT, to fuel an artificial boom ?

He made me lose my job
He made me buy my house for €500k
He made me buy a second house in Spain
He made me lose my €36K a year job
He made me max out a few CCs

I know he did all the stuff you say but most people blab on about the stuff i say, like it's anyones fault but their own

hallelujajordan

While it isn't inappropriate to measure Bertie's performance as Taoiseach on the current state of the economy as most on here seem to do I think there are other aspects to the role that need to be considered.

I personally believe his historical legacy will be the Good Friday Agreement and the work, effort and commitment he personally put into securing peace in Northern Ireland. Might not have saved any money for Ireland inc. but almost certainly saved lives.

Seth Brundle

I understand what you are saying but he was in charge of the country and allowed the financial regulator to ignore the excessive lending, etc.
He did encourage hugely unsustainable economics

ascanbe

topper75 wrote: »

You write 'boom' like it was a good thing. Economics 101 class for you, frankly.

Agreed. If they actually teach that in Economics 101 class, though, it's a pity that the majority of economists in this country missed that class...

Liam Byrne

hallelujajordan wrote: »

While it isn't inappropriate to measure Bertie's performance as Taoiseach on the current state of the economy as most on here seem to do I think there are other aspects to the role that need to be considered.

I personally believe his historical legacy will be the Good Friday Agreement and the work, effort and commitment he personally put into securing peace in Northern Ireland. Might not have saved any money for Ireland inc. but almost certainly saved lives.

No argument there. And to be fair the main reason that people highlight all the other issues is that he ignores them / absolves himself from them.

If he said "I brought peace to Northern Ireland AND I screwed up the economy" then you'd accept both and appreciate his honesty.

But since he (and his supporters) only see his single success, it's only natural for everyone else to say "Oi! Hang on a sec!"

And as I said before, one or two small or middleing cock-up might be inevitable (no-one's perfect) but Ahern with his finances and signing blank cheques and telling the economists who warned him to f-off and his ego projects and benchmarking and appointees and the banking/property crash means there's a hell of a lot more negatives than positives.