Costs for planning application

pjordan

I want to apply for planning permission for a rather large but relatively straight forward garage in my back garden. I've asked a friend of mine with RIAI membership for a quote for a planning application and he's quoted me €1,200 plus vat which seems rather steep unless he's made a mistake and added on an extra nought in which case I think it would be very reasonable.

Any idea what would be a reasonable quote for a straight forward planning application for a 4 walled 50m sq concrete block built, plaster rendered, hip slated roof garage with roller shutter door and two windowas and two skylights in a spacious back garden with the nearest neighbour >200m away?

sydthebeat

pjordan wrote: »

I want to apply for planning permission for a rather large but relatively straight forward garage in my back garden. I've asked a friend of mine with RIAI membership for a quote for a planning application and he's quoted me €1,200 plus vat which seems rather steep unless he's made a mistake and added on an extra nought in which case I think it would be very reasonable.

Any idea what would be a reasonable quote for a straight forward planning application for a 4 walled 50m sq concrete block built, plaster rendered, hip slated roof garage with roller shutter door and two windowas and two skylights in a spacious back garden with the nearest neighbour >200m away?

If this is for a domestic garage, the the quote is way off.....

however, if this is for a commercial garage then that changes the situation completely. There will be much more time and effort spent into resolving issues such as drainage, noise, traffic, etc than dealing with the actual building itself. this would be far from a straight forward planning application.

so which is it?

archtech

That fee would be fairly competitive around these parts, where someone with PI, registered for VAT etc is engaged to do a similar type application.

You certainly wouldn't get it done for €120.

No6

I could do a sketch on a scrap piece of paper for 120, but you wouldn't get planning with it!! Its not so much the drawing as everything else that is involved in a planning application.!!! If its a domestic garage make it smaller, 25msq internal floor area and build it exempted. The you can have it for free!!!:D

Poor Uncle Tom

That price isn't far out. I'd be charging about €900 incl vat.

pjordan

sydthebeat wrote: »

If this is for a domestic garage, the the quote is way off.....

however, if this is for a commercial garage then that changes the situation completely. There will be much more time and effort spent into resolving issues such as drainage, noise, traffic, etc than dealing with the actual building itself. this would be far from a straight forward planning application.

so which is it?

Free standing detached domestic garage in back garden on a rural site with no major obvious structural, drainage or planning issues. Goin big on the basis that if I'm going above the exempt size I'm as well to make it a decent size

onq

pjordan wrote: »

I want to apply for planning permission for a rather large but relatively straight forward garage in my back garden. I've asked a friend of mine with RIAI membership for a quote for a planning application and he's quoted me €1,200 plus vat which seems rather steep unless he's made a mistake and added on an extra nought in which case I think it would be very reasonable.

Any idea what would be a reasonable quote for a straight forward planning application for a 4 walled 50m sq concrete block built, plaster rendered, hip slated roof garage with roller shutter door and two windowas and two skylights in a spacious back garden with the nearest neighbour >200m away?

Quotation looks fine to me.

There are too many fools out there who can't even match their plans to their elevations but whose clients think they are getting a sweet deal on fees.

You get what you pay for.

ONQ.

sydthebeat

assuming all expenses are included:

planning fee €34
OS maps €65
newspaper notice €50

expenses = €150 approx

Even if this is taken away from the €1200 to equate to €1050 (by the way, he shouldnt be charging you VAT on his expenses) then, in my opinion, its still high for what is at most a 2 day job. I generally do not like commenting disparagingly on others quotes, but this is high for a small domestic job if it is as has been described.

RKQ

sydthebeat wrote: »

then, in my opinion, its still high for what is at most a 2 day job. I generally do not like commenting disparagingly on others quotes, but this is high for a small domestic job if it is as has been described.

I agree 100% with Syd. (As usual - well written )
Pjordan you should get 3 quotes for local Arch Tech with PI insurance, you'll find things are very competitive, especially for very straight forward domestic work.

As the OP is very clear on what is required, there is unlikely to be any design changes. It sounds like a very straight forward application. IMO €1200 + vat for such simple work is daylight robbery, totally unjustified.

onq

sydthebeat wrote: »

assuming all expenses are included:

planning fee €34
OS maps €65
newspaper notice €50

expenses = €150 approx

Even if this is taken away from the €1200 to equate to €1050 (by the way, he shouldnt be charging you VAT on his expenses) then, in my opinion, its still high for what is at most a 2 day job. I generally do not like commenting disparagingly on others quotes, but this is high for a small domestic job if it is as has been described.

Syd,

Normally we agree on matters but not this time.

I know some people can "exhale" drawings but thats only part if the workload.

Two days is the production run for any small planning, including compiling, printing, drawing, checking, writing the form and area calcs and lodgement.

That takes no account of the time taken to visit the site, discuss the brief with the client, produce and discuss designs, etc, which could easily double that time.

And again, the overheads, tax, rent and investment in education have to be paid for.

If people don't want to pay, seek another quotation - but €1,200 is actually light IMO.

You'd be luck to get a well written letter from a solicitor for that and very lucky to get a legal opinion from a barrister for that price and for good reason.

You get what you pay for.

This discussion is continuing on AAM too by the looks of things.

FWIW

ONQ.

onq

sydthebeat wrote: »

assuming all expenses are included:

planning fee €34
OS maps €65
newspaper notice €50

expenses = €150 approx

Even if this is taken away from the €1200 to equate to €1050 (by the way, he shouldnt be charging you VAT on his expenses) then, in my opinion, its still high for what is at most a 2 day job. I generally do not like commenting disparagingly on others quotes, but this is high for a small domestic job if it is as has been described.

Perhaps €50 is the rural newspaper rate - and I have paid €18 in Donegal - but its certainly much dearer in a National.

But I was excluding expenses.

I'm beginning to see where the queries on architects fees are coming from and why the RIAI have moved forward the Building Control Act 2007...

ONQ.

No6

pjordan wrote: »

Free standing detached domestic garage in back garden on a rural site with no major obvious structural, drainage or planning issues. Goin big on the basis that if I'm going above the exempt size I'm as well to make it a decent size

In which case if its as straight forward as that then the quote is high, although dealing with Mayo's planners on a regular basis as I do they have developed an amazing nack for looking for vast quantities of further information for the simpilist applications at every opportunity.

Just a note on the expenses too lads I am only using the digital OS maps for applications with a one off licence for using the data in my drawings, site plans etc. This costs 112 per map, its that or an annual licence which my current level of work definately dosn't justify!! and the best paper in Mayo for planning adds is the connaught @35 per add!!.

sydthebeat

onq wrote: »

Perhaps €50 is the rural newspaper rate - and I have paid €18 in Donegal - but its certainly much dearer in a National.

But I was excluding expenses.

I'm beginning to see where the queries on architects fees are coming from and why the RIAI have moved forward the Building Control Act 2007...

ONQ.

there should be no necessity to publish in a national newspaper, where the costs can be 5-6 fold.

ONQ, i accept your position, but i was definitely including site visit and initial briefing in that 2 day statement. Actually, come to think of it, i expect thats exactly how the architect has complied his / her quotation.

7.5 hrs x €80 per hour x 2 days = €1,200.

It would be my opinion that, in the current climate, those prices will not "get the job". Fair enough if the practise has an hourly rate, or is busy enough to charge these rates (which i doubt) but inflexibility wont lead to many jobs.

muffler

onq wrote: »

Two days is the production run for any small planning, including compiling, printing, drawing, checking, writing the form and area calcs and lodgement.

2 days is being generous but then I suppose you can afford to take your time when charging that sort of fee.

onq wrote: »

That takes no account of the time taken to visit the site, discuss the brief with the client, produce and discuss designs, etc, which could easily double that time.

onq wrote: »

And again, the overheads, tax, rent and investment in education have to be paid for.

We all have to contend with that.

onq wrote: »

If people don't want to pay, seek another quotation - but €1,200 is actually light IMO.

I cant believe you just said that.....then again Im not surprised.

onq wrote: »

You'd be luck to get a well written letter from a solicitor for that and very lucky to get a legal opinion from a barrister for that price and for good reason.

Never overrate or overestimate your importance or attempt to justify it by charging exorbitant fees.

onq wrote: »

You get what you pay for.

Are you trying to say that unless the job is done by an architect or an architect affiliated to the RIAI that it will be poorly done by someone else? Quite frankly I take that comment as casting a slur on architectural technicians who are more than capable of doing this work as good if not better than any architect.

seclachi

It seems to me that some architects put themselves in the same league as pro footballers wage wise. There is no way a simple garage should cost so much to create a planning application for, I paid a similar price during the boom for outline permission for a site with 2 houses.

Considering planning also doesnt require engineering level drawings I think its a bit of a laugh.1200 euro for a couple of days work is madness, and I think in a couple of years there are going to be a fair few disappointed architects out of business.

sinnerboy

I see a distinct Dublin / Elsewhere divide .

I have lost my shirt on "little simple" jobs over the years . Even when drawings are completed the "clarchitcture" involved is time consuming . Around DLRCC you can expect an RFI if full drainage spec ( 1/20 cross section to mains / outfall ) is not included . Very detailed contiguous elevational info is expected and a fairly high % chance of vexatious objector* ~ leading to ABP process .

* hobby of folks in these parts

muffler

The OP is in Mayo apparently.

sydthebeat

pjordan wrote: »

Free standing detached domestic garage in back garden on a rural site with no major obvious structural, drainage or planning issues.

I am basing all my opinions on this statement.

Rural site usually means soakaway drainage.
Contiguous elevations not required in a back garden.
Domestic use equates to no traffic or environmental issues.

To be honest, like SB i have lost out on some smaller jobs that turned out to be complete nightmares, but so be it, swings and roundabouts. Ive also won on larger jobs that have sailed through planning whilst pricing for every eventually. I dont believe its in either the architect or clients interest to quote initially for what "may" happen. Give a basic quotation for submitting valid planning and answering any reasonable FI if any.

This isnt the Burj Dubai, its a garage...... i could have 6 copies of a 50m2 garage, to the clients spec, off my printer in 10 minutes.

No6

muffler wrote: »

The OP is in Mayo apparently.

I did notice!!!:D And we are not quite as bad a dublin thank god sinnerboy. At least the OP is actually applying for planning, its a slight problem we have sometimes in Mayo, I've got a few garage retentions to do one of these days soon!!!:eek:

onq

Muffler,

There is a certain sense that Architectural Technicians are so fucussed on production deadlines as part of their training, that they don't see the need for discussing a brief with someone or discussing a design, even for a relatively simple thing like a garage.

"There's no money in it."

Some Architectural Technicians - and you can check my posts and see this is a recurring point of view - can produce good design work - perhaps 25% of all those I've met.

Most however, cannot.

They are excellent at producing working drawing packages to tight deadlines, encyclopedic on specification, are competent on contract matters and make the best office managers in the business - easily on a par with most senior archtiects I know.

But design, architectural design or interior design, is simply not their forté.
Those of the Architectural Technician persuasion whose forté it is go on to attend a full time design course and qualify as architects



ONQ.

pjordan

Thanks to all for your informed replies even if some of them possibly from those in the profession, do your profession something of a disservice by attempting to bamboozle a potential client with techno jargon and dazzle them with your projected level of brilliance.

The thing is I'm from a construction background, I worked in construction for 5 years (And not during the boom either!) and have a qualification in it myself so I'd regard myself as not completely a fool in this regard. I also have a fair idea of what I actually want and believe I could go so far as drawing up the sketches myself so it's not like I'm looking for a project originated from a vague concept into working drawings.

As it happens, as the quoter is actually a very good friend of mine, I did go to meet him to discuss the quote in detail and talk through it and to his and his partners credit they did accept that their fee was very high relative to what else was available out there and that that was in part due to the very high indemnity insurance they are bound by but also that the would take a very proactive part in the planning process and any negotiations with the Co Co, in effect much more than merely producing a set of drawings and completing a form. In conclusion they suggested that if I was prepared to undertake much of the dog work myself they themselves would even suggest that I pursue a cheaper option. To that degree I fully respect their professional integrity and honesty and whilst I do intend to shop around I may well get back to them yet. Oh and to those that PM'd me I'll be in touch. Thanx

onq

pjordan,

Since there have been no designs discussed or on offer, threre has been no "brilliance" posted to this thread for you to marvel at.
If you really are experienced in the industry or hold any qualification, then none of the comments here should seemed like "techno-jargon".
Just because we don't agree on price dosn't invalidate our advice, and you should get up to speed on our techno-jargon before you get to site.
BTW, if you've already had the discussion with your friend and his partners - on a garage(!) - then you've already used up a quarter of their proposed fee.

Just remember, apart from those looking for work from you via PMs and racing to the bottom on fees, the rest of us have no agenda EXCEPT upholding professional standards.
For you to suggest that by us doing that we are doing our profession any level of disservice merely because you don't agree with the advice given is a non-sequitur.
You should assess all the advice received in this context - are we people looking for work, or are we offering well-considered professional comment?

I've seen two clients walk away over the course of a 20 year career because I've told them some hard truths when required.
One of them came back to us and we satisfied their requirements - the other admitted they should have listened, having gone ahead and done something they're now regretting.
On these forums, you get good, considered free advice - an utterly priceless commodity, especially in the current economic situation - and you are perfectly free to reject it if you so choose.

As for people PM-ing you, I thought there was an instant ban for persons who use the PM facility to advertise their services - has that rule changed?

FWIW

ONQ.

seclachi

onq wrote: »

Just remember, apart from those looking for work from you via PMs and racing to the bottom on fees, the rest of us have no agenda EXCEPT upholding professional standards.

Everybody has an agenda, I think thats the first lesson in building a house, and I`m guessing thats why any potential advertisements are banned on this forum. I think your agenda is to defend your fee, and similar fees, which is fair enough, but I dont think you can profess to being unbiased . OP, I would never simply go for the lowest or highest cost, you need to see references and previous work done.

onq

seclachi wrote: »

Everybody has an agenda, I think thats the first lesson in building a house, and I`m guessing thats why any potential advertisements are banned on this forum. I think your agenda is to defend your fee, and similar fees, which is fair enough, but I dont think you can profess to being unbiased . OP, I would never simply go for the lowest or highest cost, you need to see references and previous work done.

I thought I was crystal clear about my agenda
I already stated I was "upholding professional standards".
Fees must be maintained at a certain level to ensure funds are available to pay for

• competent staff to carry out the work
• continuous professional development training including research into new products and building technology which will be required for Part L compliance
• Health and Safety compliance
• maintainingP.I. cover, etc.

In summary:

I am biased towards maintaining the standards of my profession and not engaging in a race to the bottom on fees.

Ironically, the complaint the OP has made over on <SNIP> in relation to the quality of design surrounding him in Mayo rests squarely on the shoulders of people who didn't maintain such standards, or were prevented from so doing by policies of the day in the County Manager's Office and Development Plans.

He fails to see that by not supporting good design now, he's storing up problems for the future.
Looking at some of the recent design awards, I thought we were getting past all this.
How sad it is to see we seem to have progressed such a short way.

ONQ.

Poor Uncle Tom

WARNING: Stay on topic and be civil.

sydthebeat

onq wrote: »

He fails to see that by not supporting good design now, he's storing up problems for the future.

again, in all due respect to ONQ and the point he is making... it still is only a rural garage being discussed here..... not a shopping centre... to be debating the price of 'design' merits is a bit disingenuous to the argument.

onq

sydthebeat wrote: »

again, in all due respect to ONQ and the point he is making... it still is only a rural garage being discussed here..... not a shopping centre... to be debating the price of 'design' merits is a bit disingenuous to the argument.

Syd,

I respect your views.
We have some common ground here.

And I agree with you that it is only a garage.
It can be hard to push the limit on garage design.

May I direct you to the below thread over on
<SNIP>

There are comments [posts 11, 13 & 14] re services provided at planning lodgement stage.
There are also some comments by the OP and others which shed some light on this whole episode.

ONQ.

muffler

We have our own discussion forum here and Im not prepared to allow anyone to reference or link to what is being discussed elsewhere. The topic was raised here and can be debated here but there is no valid reason for going off topic or posting links to other discussion forums.

onq banned for 2 weeks.

sinnerboy

pjordan wrote: »

Thanks to all for your informed replies even if some of them possibly from those in the profession, do your profession something of a disservice by attempting to bamboozle a potential client with techno jargon and dazzle them with your projected level of brilliance.

You were given free advice by all where none could seek gain for doing so . Easy to value it accordingly I suppose .

pjordan wrote: »

The thing is I'm from a construction background, I worked in construction for 5 years (And not during the boom either!) and have a qualification in it myself so I'd regard myself as not completely a fool in this regard. I also have a fair idea of what I actually want and believe I could go so far as drawing up the sketches myself so it's not like I'm looking for a project originated from a vague concept into working drawings.

You could do it yourself then ? How would you value your own time ? How much would YOU charge ?

pjordan wrote: »

As it happens, as the quoter is actually a very good friend of mine, I did go to meet him to discuss the quote in detail and talk through it and to his and his partners credit they did accept that their fee was very high relative to what else was available out there and that that was in part due to the very high indemnity insurance they are bound by but also that the would take a very proactive part in the planning process and any negotiations with the Co Co, in effect much more than merely producing a set of drawings and completing a form. In conclusion they suggested that if I was prepared to undertake much of the dog work myself they themselves would even suggest that I pursue a cheaper option. To that degree I fully respect their professional integrity and honesty and whilst I do intend to shop around I may well get back to them yet. Oh and to those that PM'd me I'll be in touch. Thanx

I trust your friendship remains intact . And hope your project proceeds well .

pjordan

Thanks all for your replies and despite what could be regarded by some as ingratitude in the form of perceived criticism, I'd like to say that all the advice is greatly appreciated even if it didn't tally with my initial perspective. It's good that there are a good number of perspectives, especially expert ones available so that one is compelled to think outside the box and possibly look at other considerations. Kudos to those that achieve this in a balanced matter without the need to become personally offensive. And apologies to those that are so irritated by the opinions of others that they overstep the boundaries. I'll say no more since the right of reply is not available to them.

sinnerboy

pjordan wrote: »

I'll say no more

Question well answered now - so thread locked