SINN FEIN Can Have it both ways on Policing.

ardmaj

The idea that if Sinn Fein is more inclined to force an election to put the DUP nose out of joint and make them sweat through an assembly election, or reach a deal with duppers on P&J, is an either or situation can be challenged. If they refuse a deal just to see the DUP squirm and risk the deal in the process, the received wisdom is they must lose that which they've insisted is so important. But they can actually have both ways, since the election is likely to result in the DUP being no longer the main unionist group in the assembly after the election. the question is have SF the nerve to risk the humiliation of having to deal with duppers after the election? it's going to be an interesting time ahead

dlofnep

Well, policing and justice should be already devolved. It was a fundemental part of Sinn Féin signing up to support the PSNI. The only party that's holding back political progress is the DUP.

Signing up to supporting the PSNI was a tough move, and lost SF alot of support. The PSNi continously harass members of the nationalist community, and because of this - many Republicans have now switched to other groups.

Policing & justice should be devolved now - or the whole stormont process is going to come crashing down, and the fault will be entirely in the hands of the DUP.

FlutterinBantam

Is it.

So the cowardly shadowy punters who plant bombs under PSNI cars have nothing to do with it's difficulties??

Do you perhaps support that activity??

FTA69

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Is it.

So the cowardly shadowy punters who plant bombs under PSNI cars have nothing to do with it's difficulties??

No, not really to be honest.

Pyridine

Do you perhaps support that activity??

Do you perhaps support the activity of preventing an agreement politically therefore playing into the hands of those that would prefer no agreement were reachedthus ensuring a return to the normality of bygone times??

Isolation of one side of the community brings popularity to the fringes!

I don't know...you unionists... all pontification and no substance.

Fratton Fred

I know DUP support is waining, but is there not a chance unionists would rally behind them to stop SF becoming top dogs?

FlutterinBantam

FTA69 wrote: »

No, not really to be honest.

heh heh

Well at least you are honest, 'bout all that can be said;)

dlofnep

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Is it.

So the cowardly shadowy punters who plant bombs under PSNI cars have nothing to do with it's difficulties??

Do you perhaps support that activity??

No, it doesn't have one iota to do with it's difficulties. It has to do with the DUP posturing, trying to make it appear as if they are not compromising to Sinn Féin.

There will always be issues with attacks on policing in the north. This is not going to change in the forseeable future. But in the meantime, there needs to be an accountable and devolved police force in the north. That is currently not the case.

dlofnep

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I know DUP support is waining, but is there not a chance unionists would rally behind them to stop SF becoming top dogs?

No, the unionist vote is fragmented in the same way that the nationalist vote is fragmented. Unionists don't think that the DUP is hard-lined enough, and many nationalists feel that SF have compromised too much by supporting a police-force, let alone even before the powers were devolved.

FlutterinBantam

dlofnep wrote: »

No, it doesn't have one iota to do with it's difficulties. It has to do with the DUP posturing, trying to make it appear as if they are not compromising to Sinn Féin.

There will always be issues with attacks on policing in the north. This is not going to change in the forseeable future. But in the meantime, there needs to be an accountable and devolved police force in the north. That is currently not the case.

I agree totally, but to say, as you have, that the DUP are totally responsible for the delay is absurd.

Is it not a nationalist element who are trying to murder policemen?

Surely that has some bearing on the process?

Or maybe you think it's MI5 or something?

dlofnep

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

I agree totally, but to say, as you have, that the DUP are totally responsible for the delay is absurd.

No, it's not absurd because there has always been, and will be for the forseeable future a threat towards the PSNI. This will not change, and delaying devolution only makes things worse - not better.

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Is it not a nationalist element who are trying to murder policemen?

Surely that has some bearing on the process?

It has no bearing on the process. It's the DUP posturing. Devolution of policing and justice would only be a good thing, in terms of bringing nationalists onboard to support a fairer policing service, instead of attacking them. You won't read about it in the media - but nationalists are routinely harassed by the PSNI, without legitimate reason. My friends were attacked by loyalists, which the PSNI witnessed personally, and instead of arresting the loyalists - they cautioned my friends for holding a protest, and the loyalists hoods were seen 10 minutes later chatting and laughing with the very PSNI officers. This is the type of BS that's leaves the PSNI without an iota of credibility in the nationalist areas.

Sinn Féin signed up to support policing on the premise that it would be devolved. This has not happened, and thus - Sinn Féin should immediately remove any support from the PSNI unless a plan is in the very near future. The nationalist community have waited and nothing has been delivered by the DUP as promised.

DUP only cares about votes, and not the actual process of devolution. They know that power-sharing is losing them alot of votes, and they are trying to make a statement by stalling devolution to make it appear as if they aren't willing to negotiate with Sinn Féin. This is the real issue here, and not any of that other bollocks.

FlutterinBantam

dlofnep wrote: »

No, it's not absurd because there has always been, and will be for the forseeable future a threat towards the PSNI. This will not change, and delaying devolution only makes things worse - not better.



Surely that has some bearing on the process?

It has no bearing on the process. It's the DUP posturing. Devolution of policing and justice would only be a good thing, in terms of bringing nationalists onboard to support a fairer policing service, instead of attacking them.

Sinn Féin signed up to support policing on the premise that it would be devolved. This has not happened, and thus - Sinn Féin should immediately remove any support from the PSNI unless a plan is in the very near future. The nationalist community have waited and nothing has been delivered by the DUP as promised.

DUP only cares about votes, and not the actual process of devolution. They know that power-sharing is losing them alot of votes, and they are trying to make a statement by stalling devolution to make it appear as if they aren't willing to negotiate with Sinn Féin. This is the real issue here, and not any of that other bollocks.[/QUOTE]

Do you know something, this has all the hallmarks of several other threads referring to events in the Middle east.

The bones of these are.

Side A is against side B because side B is attacking side A
Side B is against side A because side A is attacking side B

This looks like going that well trodden route.

But as all well informed people know ,it takes effort on both sides to get agreement.

To say that one side only has the wherewithall to reach agreement is the stance of a bigot and airbrushes over all the little trivialities like attempted murder on an organised basis

dlofnep

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

But as all well informed people know ,it takes effort on both sides to get agreement.

What do you mean by "as well informed people know"? I'm about as well informed as it gets when it comes to this process.

Sinn Féin has made the effort. They have signed up to supporting policing, and have done everything asked of them. It is the DUP which has not lived up to their side.

So if you were as informed as you pretended to be, you would understand that it is the DUP who are not living up to their side of the agreement.

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

To say that one side only has the wherewithall to reach agreement is the stance of a bigot and airbrushes over all the little trivialities like attempted murder on an organised basis

Sinn Féin has nothing to do with attempted murder on members of the PSNI. It has absolutely nothing to do with the process of devolution. Attacks will continue - and by your logic, policing would never be devolved - not even within the next 50 years.

So when exactly do they devolve powers? They should have been devolved from day 1.

SF should pull out of policing within 6 months if the powers are not devolved, and it will be the DUP's fault for not moving forward with the process, when SF have done everything required of them - despite it losing them many key supporters.

FTA69

dlofnep wrote: »

Sinn Féin signed up to support policing on the premise that it would be devolved.

On the basis of telling their base that they would be "in control" over policing in the north, a belief which isn't remotely rooted in reality. The fact is that devolution is a red herring because the security agenda of the PSNI will remain under control of MI5 (under St Andrew's) and they aren't accountable to anyone bar the British government. You may well be able to curb the more boorish and sectarian behaviour of the PSNI, but you certainly won't change their raison d'etre one bit, that being the upholding of the British state in Ireland.

This has not happened, and thus - Sinn Féin should immediately remove any support from the PSNI unless a plan is in the very near future.

No chance. They've broken their balls in attempting to sanitise the PSNI, even going so far as to call on Nationalists to tout on Republicans. When a British helicopter crashed in South Armagh a group of youths began to throw stones at the soldiers, Conor Murphy's response was for people to rat on these youths to the PSNI. After such actions it is highly unlikely that Sinn Féin will ever withdraw support for the cops.

FlutterinBantam

You seem to have difficulty grasping my argument.

I am not dissing Sinn Féin who have indeed gone the distance to achieve devolution in my opinion.

What I am arguing against is your theory that the DUP are totally at fault when nationalist elements are trying to murder the police??

Surely you can see that a reluctance to hand over the keys to the prison metaphorically speaking, is somewhat understandable until these things have been brought under some control??

dlofnep

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

You seem to have difficulty grasping my argument.

I am not dissing Sinn Féin who have indeed gone the distance to achieve devolution in my opinion.

What I am arguing against is your theory that the DUP are totally at fault when nationalist elements are trying to murder the police??

Surely you can see that a reluctance to hand over the keys to the prison metaphorically speaking, is somewhat understandable until these things have been brought under some control??

I grasped your argument very well, thank you.

Do you accept that the PSNI will always be targets? And if so - do you also accept that there will never be the "right" time for the DUP to proceed with devolution?

dlofnep

FTA69 wrote: »

On the basis of telling their base that they would be "in control" over policing in the north, a belief which isn't remotely rooted in reality. The fact is that devolution is a red herring because the security agenda of the PSNI will remain under control of MI5 (under St Andrew's) and they aren't accountable to anyone bar the British government. You may well be able to curb the more boorish and sectarian behaviour of the PSNI, but you certainly won't change their raison d'etre one bit, that being the upholding of the British state in Ireland.

You're preaching to the preached. I don't believe that the PSNI will ever be a fair and balanced force. I've seen their actions first-hand, and was disgusted at the crap they get away with.

FTA69 wrote: »

No chance. They've broken their balls in attempting to sanitise the PSNI, even going so far as to call on Nationalists to tout on Republicans. When a British helicopter crashed in South Armagh a group of youths began to throw stones at the soldiers, Conor Murphy's response was for people to rat on these youths to the PSNI. After such actions it is highly unlikely that Sinn Féin will ever withdraw support for the cops.

While I agree that they have stepped into what appears to be quick-sand, I do believe that there is a point at which SF will step down from policing. If there is no clear-cut answer for devolution soon, I think they will make a statement.

sceptre

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Do you know something, this has all the hallmarks of several other threads referring to events in the Middle east.

The bones of these are.

Side A is against side B because side B is attacking side A
Side B is against side A because side A is attacking side B

Indeed. I've drawn that comparison myself several times on the same basis. Frequently the same entrenched self-defensive idiotic arguments too.

FlutterinBantam

dlofnep wrote: »

I grasped your argument very well, thank you.

Do you accept that the PSNI will always be targets? And if so - do you also accept that there will never be the "right" time for the DUP to proceed with devolution?

You don't appear to have my friend.


You stated that the DUP are totally responsible for the delay in this process.

My contention is that other events,such as attempted murder on PSNI officers, are influencing their decision making.


That is the point I am making.

ardmaj

dlofnep wrote: »

No, it's not absurd because there has always been, and will be for the forseeable future a threat towards the PSNI. This will not change, and delaying devolution only makes things worse - not better.



It has no bearing on the process. It's the DUP posturing. Devolution of policing and justice would only be a good thing, in terms of bringing nationalists onboard to support a fairer policing service, instead of attacking them. You won't read about it in the media - but nationalists are routinely harassed by the PSNI, without legitimate reason. My friends were attacked by loyalists, which the PSNI witnessed personally, and instead of arresting the loyalists - they cautioned my friends for holding a protest, and the loyalists hoods were seen 10 minutes later chatting and laughing with the very PSNI officers. This is the type of BS that's leaves the PSNI without an iota of credibility in the nationalist areas.

Sinn Féin signed up to support policing on the premise that it would be devolved. This has not happened, and thus - Sinn Féin should immediately remove any support from the PSNI unless a plan is in the very near future. The nationalist community have waited and nothing has been delivered by the DUP as promised.

DUP only cares about votes, and not the actual process of devolution. They know that power-sharing is losing them alot of votes, and they are trying to make a statement by stalling devolution to make it appear as if they aren't willing to negotiate with Sinn Féin. This is the real issue here, and not any of that other bollocks.

Diophnep, you have summed up the dup default attitude to the catholic community perfectly. No need to add to it.

dlofnep

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

You don't appear to have my friend.


You stated that the DUP are totally responsible for the delay in this process.

My contention is that other events,such as attempted murder on PSNI officers, are influencing their decision making.


That is the point I am making.

Actually I have.

You've still not addressed my point. I can only assume that you are unable to.

Bottle_of_Smoke

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

You don't appear to have my friend.


You stated that the DUP are totally responsible for the delay in this process.

My contention is that other events,such as attempted murder on PSNI officers, are influencing their decision making.


That is the point I am making.

This is a really weak point you're trying to make. And you're getting a bit pedantic with the totally responsible. If anything dissident action should be a reason to devolve.

Jaap

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

This is a really weak point you're trying to make. And you're getting a bit pedantic with the totally responsible. If anything dissident action should be a reason to devolve.

I was of the understanding that one of the barriers in the devolution of policing and juctice is to do with the police reservists...some quarters want to see them scrapped...some want to seem them in some shape or form retained!!!
If the PSNI was being reformed and numbers adjusted accordingly (as in reduced) due to the disappearance of the IRA and the so-called peace...then all of a sudden the dissidents emerge with a bit more force than you expected them to have...there must be an argument for some parties being concerned about this cutback in policing manpower! It is totally understandable!
More terrorist danger has to equal second thoughts on reducing the bodies you have in your police force!
FlutterBantam actually has a strong point in his comments!

Jaap

dlofnep wrote: »

Signing up to supporting the PSNI was a tough move, and lost SF alot of support. The PSNI continously harass members of the nationalist community, and because of this - many Republicans have now switched to other groups.
.

Sinn Fein I think are going from strength to strength by supporting the PSNI...they are gaining many nationalist voters who are realising that they are committed to seeing democracy govern the island of Ireland...not the bullet or bomb!
Any defectors from Sinn Fein I couldn't see joining the SDLP..they would probably shift support to the dissident republican parties I guess!
dlofnep...I know you don't particularly like the police...but surely you wouldn't support the likes of dissidents who look like they are willing to bomb and shoot their way to achieving their own political objectives? Dissidents even maim catholics who support nationalism...that poor police officer from near Randalstown who had to have his leg amputated was prominant in GAA...an organisation that promotes Ireland's unity!

RedPlanet

ardmaj wrote: »

The idea that if Sinn Fein is more inclined to force an election to put the DUP nose out of joint and make them sweat through an assembly election, or reach a deal with duppers on P&J, is an either or situation can be challenged. If they refuse a deal just to see the DUP squirm and risk the deal in the process, the received wisdom is they must lose that which they've insisted is so important.

Why?
Why can't they force an election and make a deal on the other side?
They could be a stronger party with a bigger mandate.

ardmaj wrote: »

But they can actually have both ways, since the election is likely to result in the DUP being no longer the main unionist group in the assembly after the election.

Did you mean: they can't have it both ways?
I don't understand why not.
Let the DUP fall on their own swords. Let's see who comes out trumps on the other side of an election. If we've waited this long for Policing, we can wait a little longer.

ardmaj wrote: »

the question is have SF the nerve to risk the humiliation of having to deal with duppers after the election?

They already are dealing with the DUP.
It makes little difference to SF whether the leader is Ian Paisley, Peter Robinson, Jnr, or Sammy Wilson.

ardmaj

RedPlanet wrote: »

Why?
Why can't they force an election and make a deal on the other side?
They could be a stronger party with a bigger mandate.
Did you mean: they can't have it both ways?
I don't understand why not.
Let the DUP fall on their own swords. Let's see who comes out trumps on the other side of an election. If we've waited this long for Policing, we can wait a little longer.

They already are dealing with the DUP.
It makes little difference to SF whether the leader is Ian Paisley, Peter Robinson, Jnr, or Sammy Wilson.

I actually meant they can have it both ways, as I said in title. I just phrased it badly. My belief is, that SF won't be able to resist the temptation to send DUP to face their voters at the worst possible time, and, and they've judged that the outcome will be that Dup will be squeezed with rightwingers to TUV and moderates to UUP where they came from back in 2000. The deal can be done with UUP, on P&J later,and the dup will have gone back to 'also rans' in unionism where they belong.

ardmaj

RedPlanet wrote: »

Why?
Why can't they force an election and make a deal on the other side?
They could be a stronger party with a bigger mandate.
Did you mean: they can't have it both ways?
I don't understand why not.
Let the DUP fall on their own swords. Let's see who comes out trumps on the other side of an election. If we've waited this long for Policing, we can wait a little longer.

They already are dealing with the DUP.
It makes little difference to SF whether the leader is Ian Paisley, Peter Robinson, Jnr, or Sammy Wilson.

Sorry, i missed that one. I meant that if the DUP against all forecasts come out on top of unionist side after the assembly election, they will be where they are now, facing SF [it doesn't really matter which is first minister], they will rub it in to sf about the gamble going wrong and still no P&J.

dlofnep

Jaap wrote: »

Sinn Fein I think are going from strength to strength by supporting the PSNI...they are gaining many nationalist voters who are realising that they are committed to seeing democracy govern the island of Ireland...not the bullet or bomb!
Any defectors from Sinn Fein I couldn't see joining the SDLP..they would probably shift support to the dissident republican parties I guess!
dlofnep...I know you don't particularly like the police...but surely you wouldn't support the likes of dissidents who look like they are willing to bomb and shoot their way to achieving their own political objectives? Dissidents even maim catholics who support nationalism...that poor police officer from near Randalstown who had to have his leg amputated was prominant in GAA...an organisation that promotes Ireland's unity!

Sorry, where did I give off the impression that I supported attacks on the PSNI?

ardmaj

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I know DUP support is waining, but is there not a chance unionists would rally behind them to stop SF becoming top dogs?

The answer is they won't rally round, because they failed to rally at the european election, and also, unionist voters know that the places 1st and 2nd are not really superior/inferior positions and that vetoes of FM and DFM are identical. SF just failed up to now to capitalise on theirs.

junder

ardmaj wrote: »

[/b]
Diophnep, you have summed up the dup default attitude to the catholic community perfectly. No need to add to it.

A political party that panders to its voters, go figure.

munsterlegend

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

You seem to have difficulty grasping my argument.

I am not dissing Sinn Féin who have indeed gone the distance to achieve devolution in my opinion.

What I am arguing against is your theory that the DUP are totally at fault when nationalist elements are trying to murder the police??

Surely you can see that a reluctance to hand over the keys to the prison metaphorically speaking, is somewhat understandable until these things have been brought under some control??

just because you have a relatively small group of people trying to destabilise the process doesn't mean the whole process should stall. in fact the more of a political vacuum there is, it plays into these people's hands. i deplore the attack on that poor young policeman whether he be a gaa/irish speaker or rugby/unionist man.

the underlying problem that i see is that unionism has yet to grasp the idea of sharing power with nationalism particularly sinn fein. they have always had this superiority complex and with the current generation i can't see that changing. nationalism is far from perfect either but true republicanism is about treating all people equally no matter what creed.

i can't see any progress until after the elections as the dup are under a lot of political pressure and like the ulster unionist party before it could suffer significant election losses.