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SINN FEIN Can Have it both ways on Policing.
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Sorry, where did I give off the impression that I supported attacks on the PSNI?
Rephrasing my question...you obviously have some issues with the RUC/PSNI (whether it be the dealings they had with you, family or friends)...Sinn Fein are now encouraging nationalists to approach the police if they have any law and order problems...Sinn Fein are encouraging everyone in the north to support the police...do you think that is a wise move by Sinn Fein?
What do you think is the alternative then if you think it isn't a wise move?
Who do you believe the other groups these defectors from Sinn Fein are moving to?
Do you think it is a wise move for these defectors to support these groups?
By the way I do not support the attacks on the PSNI! Do you support the attacks? Simple answer...yes or no!
Feel free to answer all or none of the above!0 -
Sinn Fein are now encouraging nationalists to approach the police if they have any law and order problems...Sinn Fein are encouraging everyone in the north to support the police...do you think that is a wise move by Sinn Fein?
I don't think it's a wise move. But I accept that it's a move that they had to take in order to ensure that policing & justice would be devolved. But the real issue now is that they have not been devolved as promised.
When 2 PSNI officers chastise you for bringing to their attention, a physical attack on your friends and are then seen laughing with the said attackers 10 minutes later - it ruins any faith the community has in the PSNI.What do you think is the alternative then if you think it isn't a wise move?
There is no ideal solution in the north. The wisest move would be to call the DUP's bluff, and give them 6 months to progress with devolution or call an end to it. Sinn Féin have put their foot in quick-sand, and they only have so much time before they can step out. Believe me, SF want the process to work - but the DUP keeps posturing, and it's going to bring an end to the whole power-sharing process.
The repercussions are that the PSNI would still operate, but that communities would go from having little faith in them, to no faith. Personally, I think that if devolution went ahead, it would solve alot of problems, or at least create a basis for them to be resolved.Who do you believe the other groups these defectors from Sinn Fein are moving to?
From my own personal observations, many activists moved to Éirígí. However, it's safe to say that some may have moved to RSF or the 32CSM. Some possibly independant.Do you think it is a wise move for these defectors to support these groups?
No, I don't. I think it fragments the nationalist vote. I do however understand why they have fragmented.Do you support the attacks? Simple answer...yes or no!
No, of course I don't. I'm not sure what lead you to believe otherwise.Feel free to answer all or none of the above!
All answered. If there's anything I've missed, let me know.0 -
I don't think it's a wise move. But I accept that it's a move that they had to take in order to ensure that policing & justice would be devolved. But the real issue now is that they have not been devolved as promised.
you can't have a party in government if they don't support the police in matters of law and order? i am sure the PSNI is far from perfect like any police force but it certainly is a step in the right direction with participation from both communities. northern ireland's problems won't be solved overnight, it will take generations for attitudes and minds to change towards each respective community.0 -
munsterlegend wrote: »you can't have a party in government if they don't support the police in matters of law and order?
Of course you can, if the said law enforcement is unaccountable for and is catered to serving one community over another.munsterlegend wrote: »i am sure the PSNI is far from perfect like any police force
No, they are not far from perfect like any police force. They are not comparable with other policing services. They are still deeply entrenched with elements of the RUC, and their attitudes towards the nationalist community has severed faith in them.
The people need to trust a policing service before they will support it. The onus is on the PSNI to clean up it's act, and not for the people to blindly support them. What you don't understand is that many people see the PSNI as the RUC.munsterlegend wrote: »but it certainly is a step in the right direction with participation from both communities. northern ireland's problems won't be solved overnight, it will take generations for attitudes and minds to change towards each respective community.
It's only a step in the right direction if the DUP stop posturing and allow for devolution to move forward. There is nothing positive about supporting a biased police force, unless there is real power to change it for the better.0 -
Of course you can, if the said law enforcement is unaccountable for and is catered to serving one community over another.
No, they are not far from perfect like any police force. They are not comparable with other policing services. They are still deeply entrenched with elements of the RUC, and their attitudes towards the nationalist community has severed faith in them.
The people need to trust a policing service before they will support it. The onus is on the PSNI to clean up it's act, and not for the people to blindly support them. What you don't understand is that many people see the PSNI as the RUC.
It's only a step in the right direction if the DUP stop posturing and allow for devolution to move forward. There is nothing positive about supporting a biased police force, unless there is real power to change it for the better.
to be honest with you I do believe northern ireland is not able to govern itself at the moment. there is just too much distrust on both sides and even without the policing problems, sinn fein and dup's economic policies for running the place are laughable at times which is why sinn fein won't make any more political progress down south.
i believe something slightly less than joint authority is th only feasible solution at the moment as the british government will never fully accept that they can't run or rule the place.0 -
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munsterlegend wrote: »to be honest with you I do believe northern ireland is not able to govern itself at the moment. there is just too much distrust on both sides and even without the policing problems, sinn fein and dup's economic policies for running the place are laughable at times which is why sinn fein won't make any more political progress down south.
Any examples of the economic policies you have issues with?munsterlegend wrote: »i believe something slightly less than joint authority is th only feasible solution at the moment as the british government will never fully accept that they can't run or rule the place.
The British Government doesn't want to run it anymore. That's why Gordon Brown offered £1billion to help with the transfer of powers. He is seriously keen to let the people in the north start making their own decisions. The British public doesn't want the north either.0 -
No, they are not far from perfect like any police force. They are not comparable with other policing services. They are still deeply entrenched with elements of the RUC, and their attitudes towards the nationalist community has severed faith in them.
The people need to trust a policing service before they will support it. The onus is on the PSNI to clean up it's act, and not for the people to blindly support them. What you don't understand is that many people see the PSNI as the RUC.
It's only a step in the right direction if the DUP stop posturing and allow for devolution to move forward. There is nothing positive about supporting a biased police force, unless there is real power to change it for the better.
Many unionists would say that their problem is the PSNI are no longer like the RUC...they would say the RUC were more effective in their job than the PSNI will ever be!
Many unionists are unhappy with the service the PSNI provide...everyone in every country has issues with their police force! Call-out times are slow...solving of crime rates should be higher etc!
Many unionists would see the selction for police officers as being biased...not chosing the right candidates for the job...going for religion, sex, race so suit quotas! If you are a coloured black female unless you have some skeleton in the closet or have no common sense you are in with a good chance of getting a trainee spot!
There has to be compromise somewhere!
Who would've thought Sinn Fein would be supporting the police and have members on the district policing boards 10 years ago! From being the political wing of one of the world's top terrorist organistions and supporting violence against the RUC/PSNI to now be helping to reform the police...Sinn Fein has compromised...compromised to give the Northern Ireland and the whole island of Ireland a better future!
Thanks for answering my questions dlofnep by the way!0 -
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Any examples of the economic policies you have issues with?
The British Government doesn't want to run it anymore. That's why Gordon Brown offered £1billion to help with the transfer of powers. He is seriously keen to let the people in the north start making their own decisions. The British public doesn't want the north either.
i accept britian want out as quickly as possible but what they want and can do are two different things.
i don't wish to get into a debate about sinn fein economic policies as they are so far out of touch with reality, its a pointless exercise.0 -
Sinn Fein I think are going from strength to strength by supporting the PSNI...they are gaining many nationalist voters who are realising that they are committed to seeing democracy govern the island of Ireland...not the bullet or bomb!
Yes indeed, but only in the North (as Killian Forde has recently proven)!
P.S. I totally agree with Flutterin re 'not handing over the keys' until everybody is certain that the jailer (& his family) are 100% on the side of law & order.0 -
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munsterlegend wrote: »i don't wish to get into a debate about sinn fein economic policies as they are so far out of touch with reality, its a pointless exercise.
You brought up the topic. Is there any particular economic policies in the north that they are introducing or have introduced that you disagree with?0 -
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munsterlegend wrote: »how does their economic principles in the north differ from the south? i'm sure you can enlighten me on the differences.
Hold up a second - you just went on claiming that their economic policies in the north, along with the DUP were laughable.
Now tell me exactly, which economic principles is it that are laughable. Don't ask me to do your homework for you. I'm well aware of their economic stance in both the north and south.
You've made the claim, now I expect you to be able to point out a few of these economic policies that they implement in the north that are laughable. It's a simple question. Since you made the claim, I'm sure that you are able to answer.0 -
Hold up a second - you just went on claiming that their economic policies in the north, along with the DUP were laughable.
Now tell me exactly, which economic principles is it that are laughable. Don't ask me to do your homework for you. I'm well aware of their economic stance in both the north and south.
You've made the claim, now I expect you to be able to point out a few of these economic policies that they implement in the north that are laughable. It's a simple question. Since you made the claim, I'm sure that you are able to answer.
they haven't implemented any policies of any note that i can recall which is why the place is unworkable - how can you have parties in power that don't have a minute bit of trust between them? the place is a failed entity without british subvention and is not an economy but merely 6 counties thrown together in 1921 that nobody wants. even the republican party in power down here have no interest in current times in taking the place over given the social unrest the then loyalist minority would cause.0 -
How utterly bizarre! Who ever heard of a functioning democracy where members of the public co-operate with the police? I mean, it's not as if assaulting soldiers is even illegal, or anything.When a British helicopter crashed in South Armagh a group of youths began to throw stones at the soldiers, Conor Murphy's response was for people to rat on these youths to the PSNI.
Next thing you know, they'll be telling us that it's wrong to put bombs under policemen's cars. Ridiculous!0 -
munsterlegend wrote: »they haven't implemented any policies of any note that i can recall which is why the place is unworkable - how can you have parties in power that don't have a minute bit of trust between them? the place is a failed entity without british subvention and is not an economy but merely 6 counties thrown together in 1921 that nobody wants. even the republican party in power down here have no interest in current times in taking the place over given the social unrest the then loyalist minority would cause.
So you don't actually know any of their economic policies for the north. You just made a sweeping statement, without even giving thought to it. You might want to think for yourself sometime instead of going with the status quo.
Some people have genuine quips with some of SF's economic policies, and can backup as to why they have quips. I don't have an issue with that. You however don't know why, but felt it would be good to just throw it out there and hope that nobody would call you on it. Well, I called you on it and you didn't respond.
You stated that SF's policies in the north were laughable, but now you can't outline even one of those policies to me.0 -
So you don't actually know any of their economic policies for the north. You just made a sweeping statement, without even giving thought to it. You might want to think for yourself sometime instead of going with the status quo.
Some people have genuine quips with some of SF's economic policies, and can backup as to why they have quips. I don't have an issue with that. You however don't know why, but felt it would be good to just throw it out there and hope that nobody would call you on it. Well, I called you on it and you didn't respond.
You stated that SF's policies in the north were laughable, but now you can't outline even one of those policies to me.
they are a socialist marxist party - those policies collapsed in the 1980's apart from places like cuba and north korea. sinn fein in economic terms stand for no private ownership, raise taxes for business and vote against every eu treaty though before the last vote they said they wouldn't take ireland out of the eu which is laughable given they are against the whole concept of it.
sinn fein are a one issue party which is why they will never down south aspire to any greater than being anything other than a minority. whilst not knowing the reason why three of its councillors have left the party in dublin recently, it is mentioned in the media these were due to its inadequate economic policies and northern based leadership but i am sure you may have other information. i can understand why they do well up north due to two polarised communities who want to protect their interests/identities.0 -
munsterlegend wrote: »sinn fein in economic terms stand for no private ownership
No it doesn't.munsterlegend wrote: »raise taxes for business
Wrong, it's current corporate tax policy in the north is to reduce tax by 4.5% for small to medium sized businesses.munsterlegend wrote: »and vote against every eu treaty though before the last vote they said they wouldn't take ireland out of the eu which is laughable given they are against the whole concept of it.
They are not against the concept of the EU. The Irish people also voted against the Lisbon Treaty and the Nice Treaty first time around too. Are they anti-European also?munsterlegend wrote: »sinn fein are a one issue party
Yet again, more ignorance. They are not a one issue party. The are a grassroots lead movement, that sticks up for the most vulnerable classes in society. Irish Unity, just so happens to be one of their many policies. (Which btw, is a policy shared by all political parties outside of unionist parties in Ireland). Aengus Ó Snodaigh, TD for Sinn Féin recently slept out in the freezing cold on the streets of Dublin to highlight the ongoing issue of homelessness. Councillors work hard across Ireland working with community projects. Hardly a one issue party.munsterlegend wrote: »which is why they will never down south aspire to any greater than being anything other than a minority. whilst not knowing the reason why three of its councillors have left the party in dublin recently, it is mentioned in the media these were due to its inadequate economic policies and northern based leadership but i am sure you may have other information.
Councillors deflect from party to party all the time. There are some issues to be addressed within Sinn Féin, like all parties. The leadership isn't northern based, as the vice-president is from Dublin. I do agree that more investment is required in the south - but this is an issue that is to be worked on.munsterlegend wrote: »i can understand why they do well up north due to two polarised communities who want to protect their interests/identities.
Well then why did Sinn Féin go from a minority nationalist party in the north, to the largest nationalist party in the North - overtaking SDLP. Surely, the people would have just stayed with the more moderate SDLP if they were just interested in identities? The reality of the matter is, most of them respected Sinn Féin's politics.0 -
don't sinn fein want to increase corperate tax in the RoI but lower it in northern ireland?0
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No it doesn't.
Wrong, it's current corporate tax policy in the north is to reduce tax by 4.5% for small to medium sized businesses.
They are not against the concept of the EU. The Irish people also voted against the Lisbon Treaty and the Nice Treaty first time around too. Are they anti-European also?
Yet again, more ignorance. They are not a one issue party. The are a grassroots lead movement, that sticks up for the most vulnerable classes in society. Irish Unity, just so happens to be one of their many policies. (Which btw, is a policy shared by all political parties outside of unionist parties in Ireland). Aengus Ó Snodaigh, TD for Sinn Féin recently slept out in the freezing cold on the streets of Dublin to highlight the ongoing issue of homelessness. Councillors work hard across Ireland working with community projects. Hardly a one issue party.
Councillors deflect from party to party all the time. There are some issues to be addressed within Sinn Féin, like all parties. The leadership isn't northern based, as the vice-president is from Dublin. I do agree that more investment is required in the south - but this is an issue that is to be worked on.
Well then why did Sinn Féin go from a minority nationalist party in the north, to the largest nationalist party in the North - overtaking SDLP. Surely, the people would have just stayed with the more moderate SDLP if they were just interested in identities? The reality of the matter is, most of them respected Sinn Féin's politics.
so its not a socialist marxist party or is it? you didn't address that point.
whilst most parties do share the idea of a united ireland, they didn't have a private army to achieve same. one thing i will say i have never lived up north and i am sure like any other people they are no different to anywhere else. i can but imagine the level of provocation which led to the commencement of the troubles and the course of action people decided to take. Unionism created a two tier society and this view of nationlists being kept out of power still holds sway which is why they keep throwing obstacles to powersharing. the british govt previously threw a blind eye to all this but they now know they can't get away with this anymore and ultimately they could be told to get lost by their queen.
as for why people voted sinn fein, i think a large proportion of it vote increasing was the correlating rise of the dup over the uup. the extreme unionist view being matched by the extreme nationlist view. the sdlp paid the price for peace of its support dwindling and sinn fein capitalised on same.0 -
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don't sinn fein want to increase corperate tax in the RoI but lower it in northern ireland?
No. Their current stance is to keep it at 12.5% in the south, and reduce corporate tax by 4.5% in the north for small to medium sized businesses.
Inevitably, they want to harmonise tax across Ireland with a single Island economy.0 -
munsterlegend wrote: »as for why people voted sinn fein, i think a large proportion of it vote increasing was the correlating rise of the dup over the uup. the extreme unionist view being matched by the extreme nationlist view. the sdlp paid the price for peace of its support dwindling and sinn fein capitalised on same.
Then why did Sinn Féin's vote increase drastically after the peace process, when society and politics were less extreme? The people had a choice with the SDLP and ultimately chose Sinn Féin. In the same respect, the Unionists had a choice with other unionist parties, but ultimately chose the DUP. I'm not a fan of the DUP, but they are less extreme than the likes of the TUV and ultimately are probably the best unionist candidate to engage in power sharing - however despite that, they still don't fit the bill.0 -
Then why did Sinn Féin's vote increase drastically after the peace process, when society and politics were less extreme? The people had a choice with the SDLP and ultimately chose Sinn Féin. In the same respect, the Unionists had a choice with other unionist parties, but ultimately chose the DUP. I'm not a fan of the DUP, but they are less extreme than the likes of the TUV and ultimately are probably the best unionist candidate to engage in power sharing - however despite that, they still don't fit the bill.
well sinn fein are a lot more acceptable to the general nationalist population now given that they have renounced violence to achieve their means. politics in the north is dominated by the constitutional issue unlike down here where its primarily the state of the economy. the dup didn't become the leading party in westminster election until after the good friday agreement.
in 1997 the dup had 14% of the vote, in 2005 it had 34%
in the same time sinn fein jumped from 16 to 24%.
even during the troubles it always got about 10%-13% so its extra lift in my view was due to the rise of the dup to the leading unionist party and it renouncing violence of course.
what is the current timeframe for sinn fein in terms of a united ireland? have they set down any goals?0 -
oscarBravo wrote: »How utterly bizarre! Who ever heard of a functioning democracy where members of the public co-operate with the police? I mean, it's not as if assaulting soldiers is even illegal, or anything.
Grand job, although I'd rather not be lectured on the evils of youths stoning an occupational army by people claiming to be the one true opposition to that occupation e.g Conor Murphy.0 -
I'm sure you wouldn't but it's not particularly relevant as it's not actually dealing with the worth (or lack of) of the statement itself. You didn't explain why his suggestion (or lecture as you put it) to "rat" (your phrase) on these youths for chucking stones at these guys to the PSNI was a bad thing. Why is it a bad thing or bad suggestion?Grand job, although I'd rather not be lectured on the evils of youths stoning an occupational army by people claiming to be the one true opposition to that occupation e.g Conor Murphy.
I missed the reference earlier I'm afraid but it was a bit of a headshaker when I noticed it highlighted above.0 -
munsterlegend wrote: »what is the current timeframe for sinn fein in terms of a united ireland? have they set down any goals?
I don't think you can put a time-frame on it. It's not a change you can just suddenly implement. There needs to be an infrastructure in place so that the changeover is seemingless - hence the harmonised tax.
There needs to be real change before it will be possible. Devolution and self determination at a more local level needs to come into play. More accountability at a more local level also comes into play.
The nationalist vote is increasing and has done by over 13% since 1982 - so I'd imagine Sinn Féin are waiting to become the largest party in the north, before making a move.0 -
I'm sure you wouldn't but it's not particularly relevant as it's not actually dealing with the worth (or lack of) of the statement itself. You didn't explain why his suggestion (or lecture as you put it)
I was saying it was Murphy who was doing the lecturing not OB, and that it was a tad hypocritical for Murphy to be criticising youngfellas for stoning British soldiers when he was a member of an organisation that spent 30 odd years trying to kill the same soldiers.to "rat" (your phrase) on these youths for chucking stones at these guys to the PSNI was a bad thing. Why is it a bad thing or bad suggestion?
Because as an Irish Republican I believe the British Army is the armed wing of the British occupation in this country and that they have no right to be in this country under force of arms. Thus, while I don't support an armed campaign, I won't be condemning youths who stone soldiers after they crash-land a helicopter into an area where they aren't at all welcome. And I certainly wouldn't be touting them out to the PSNI or encourgaing others to do so.0 -
I got the first part - it's why I did the head shaking thing. Murphy can come out with some big clangers like still justifying the Brighton bombings in front of conservative party conferences but on this one perhaps he's finding the light. Maybe he is, maybe he isn't. Either way as I alluded to above, you're doing an ad hominem attack when you really should be saying why he's wrong. But you're doing that below so let's move on...I was saying it was Murphy who was doing the lecturing not OB, and that it was a tad hypocritical for Murphy to be criticising youngfellas for stoning British soldiers when he was a member of an organisation that spent 30 odd years trying to kill the same soldiers.
Noted.Because as an Irish Republican I believe the British Army is the armed wing of the British occupation in this country and that they have no right to be in this country under force of arms.
So throwing things is OK as long as it isn't a petrol bomb then? Just stones? Or sticks as well? Is there a line of acceptability of violence somewhere?Thus, while I don't support an armed campaign, I won't be condemning youths who stone soldiers after they crash-land a helicopter into an area where they aren't at all welcome. And I certainly wouldn't be touting them out to the PSNI or encourgaing others to do so.0 -
Oh yeah, I forgot: you can justify anything from anti-social thuggery to mass murder by choosing to believe something at odds with reality. How silly of me.Because as an Irish Republican I believe the British Army is the armed wing of the British occupation in this country and that they have no right to be in this country under force of arms.
If you had information that would lead to the arrest of those responsible for blowing up police officers' cars recently, would you give it to the police? Or do your convenient beliefs make it OK for you to protect murderers, even though you disagree with their actions?Thus, while I don't support an armed campaign, I won't be condemning youths who stone soldiers after they crash-land a helicopter into an area where they aren't at all welcome. And I certainly wouldn't be touting them out to the PSNI or encourgaing others to do so.0 -
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Oh yeah, I forgot: you can justify anything from anti-social thuggery to mass murder by choosing to believe something at odds with reality. How silly of me.
Myself and yourself have been having this discussion on and off for years, so I don't really want to get into the whole "Irish unity/IRA/Brits etc" lark, besides, this isn't the thread for it and every thread remotely concerned with the north always morphs into that argument sooner or later.If you had information that would lead to the arrest of those responsible for blowing up police officers' cars recently, would you give it to the police? Or do your convenient beliefs make it OK for you to protect murderers, even though you disagree with their actions?
I'm not supportive of any of the current armed groups, or their respective campaigns but I also wouldn't be collaborating with the British army or British police.0
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