Shouldnt the old spock not have remembered what happened in the old timeline

Vampireskiss

I have a question regarding the new movie which suggests the destruction of vulcan hasnt changed much at all, for example when spock was telling his story of red matter and how it destroyed romulus, this happened in the universe where vulcan wasnt destroyed but since it was destroyed the old spock from the futures memories should have changed also , it just seems that the destruction of vulcun had no chnage on old spock, explain?

somuj

Vampireskiss wrote: »

I have a question regarding the new movie which suggests the destruction of vulcan hasnt changed much at all, for example when spock was telling his story of red matter and how it destroyed romulus, this happened in the universe where vulcan wasnt destroyed but since it was destroyed the old spock from the futures memories should have changed also , it just seems that the destruction of vulcun had no chnage on old spock, explain?

When Spock went back in time, it created an alternate reality. The timeline that he came from still exits.

Kinda throws the temporal prime directive out the window and every other time travel episode too.:(

Myrddin

somuj wrote: »

When Spock went back in time, it created an alternate reality. The timeline that he came from still exits.

Kinda throws the temporal prime directive out the window and every other time travel episode too.:(

Yeah..its convenient for the writers to choose weather causality exists or not. Look at the mechanics of First Contact, compared to STXI, according the STXI's laws of reality, the Enterprise E should have seen NO CHANGES in Earth, when the Borg went back in time.

Cookie_Monster

Vampireskiss wrote: »

I have a question regarding the new movie which suggests the destruction of vulcan hasnt changed much at all, for example when spock was telling his story of red matter and how it destroyed romulus, this happened in the universe where vulcan wasnt destroyed but since it was destroyed the old spock from the futures memories should have changed also , it just seems that the destruction of vulcun had no chnage on old spock, explain?

thats just the crap plot and writing

cyrusdvirus

EnterNow wrote: »

Yeah..its convenient for the writers to choose weather causality exists or not. Look at the mechanics of First Contact, compared to STXI, according the STXI's laws of reality, the Enterprise E should have seen NO CHANGES in Earth, when the Borg went back in time.

I don't follow? Wasn't the Enterprise E in some sort of temporal wake which protected it from beng wiped from history?

Remember, the Borg WENT back in time, Spock CAME back in time.

The 2 different timelines diverged from the moment the time traveller arrived in whatever era.

From the Enterprise E we saw history change, when they went back in time they were able to save their own history.
With Spock, the ability to travel back to his own timeline wasn't there. Cos the writers forgot to put it in.

Who_owns_this?

Whenever something like that happens, a wizard did it.

norrie rugger

What bugs me more is
What happened to all the Vulcan colonies!! that were mentioned in Enterprise?

All of a sudden the Vulcans only have 1 planet?

cyrusdvirus

norrie rugger wrote: »

What bugs me more is
What happened to all the Vulcan colonies!! that were mentioned in Enterprise?

All of a sudden the Vulcans only have 1 planet?

a plot hole you could drive a borg cube through!!

Myrddin

Went back in time/came back in time? Whats the difference?

I think whats being failed to be understood here is that when Spock went back in time it created an alternate universe, where events unfolded differently.

When the Borg went back in time in FC, it changed the reality that the Enterprise was ALREADY in...this event didnt create an alternate timeline, because if it did all the Enterprise would have seen was the Borg disappear into a Vortex and that was it.

So whats it to be writers? Travelling back in time & changing events creates a brand new timeline & leaves the original timeline in tact (ST XI), or traveling back in time and interfering in events alters the future of the timeline where you originally came from (ST FC)?

onq

There isn't a consistent position on this in either the TV series or Films or Literature.

And not just in the Star Trek episodes.

The character's motivation is usually self-centred - when they're facing into the time vortex/wormhole/machine they're going into the past to save their family/friends/lovedones/ civilisation.

IOW they're not doing it because they want to save some alternate reality where probability has condensed the quantum interval to something similar to their own existence.

The whole thing gets blown out the window when you bring in
a Multiverse á la the Michael Moorcock Champion Eternal series of books or
Bleedships travelling between alternate realities - as opposed to creating new ones - á la The Authority series.

ONQ.

cyrusdvirus

EnterNow wrote: »

Went back in time/came back in time? Whats the difference?

The difference is our perspective.

In FC, we were looking at the time travel from the Enterprise E's point of view, therefore we saw the fleet disappear and the planet get altered from a future point of view. When the Borg went back in time the entire planet wasn't assimilated straight away, because it hadn't happened yet. But you saw it happen instantly on the Enterprise's view screen.

In JJ-Trek, we were looking from the point of view of Young Kirk etc, therefore we saw the events unfold.

I think whats being failed to be understood here is that when Spock went back in time it created an alternate universe, where events unfolded differently.

I think we all accept that. If you don't then back to reality with you and leave sci fi to us!!

When the Borg went back in time in FC, it changed the reality that the Enterprise was ALREADY in...this event didnt create an alternate timeline, because if it did all the Enterprise would have seen was the Borg disappear into a Vortex and that was it.

That's because the Enterprise wnet back in time to prevent the Borg from assimilating earth. We saw it from the point of view of one time line. There would have been others. Remember the episode of TNG where Worf was caught in a time loop type thing, there were literally hundreds of Enterprise D's each with their own history, each with their own timeline

So whats it to be writers? Travelling back in time & changing events creates a brand new timeline & leaves the original timeline in tact (ST XI), or traveling back in time and interfering in events alters the future of the timeline where you originally came from (ST FC)?

It's all to do with the perspective.

Spock Prime travelled back in time AFTER achieving all that we know of from the prime universe, he was older and still had those experiences.

he couldn't appear in the JJ-verse without any of that knowledge. He still has his experiences from the prime universe.

L31mr0d

EnterNow wrote: »

So whats it to be writers? Travelling back in time & changing events creates a brand new timeline & leaves the original timeline in tact (ST XI), or traveling back in time and interfering in events alters the future of the timeline where you originally came from (ST FC)?

Was there ever an instance in the series' though where changing something in the past didn't affect the present timeline? I'm pretty sure the writers went to great pains to make sure anything that happened in the past was reflected in the present (from TNG: Datas head in the mine, Yars Romulan baby... etc)

It seems the latest film wanted to reset the timeline for ease of narrative in any subsequent films and just threw the book out the window.

gatecrash wrote: »

In FC, we were looking at the time travel from the Enterprise E's point of view, therefore we saw the fleet disappear and the planet get altered from a future point of view.

I don't think you are fully understanding EnterNow's point. FC was true to the series' in that changes in the past had an immediate impact on the present.

What XI did was throw this standard out the Window. If the rules from XI existed in FC the Enterprise E should of seen no changes to the timeline. The timeline that they existed in would have remained unaltered and continued on as if the Borg had never travelled back in time. Instead the Borg would of split off a new timeline to the one we where viewing.

norrie rugger

L31mr0d wrote: »

What XI did was throw this standard out the Window. If the rules from XI existed in FC the Enterprise E should of seen no changes to the timeline. The timeline that they existed in would have remained unaltered and continued on as if the Borg had never travelled back in time. Instead the Borg would of split off a new timeline to the one we where viewing.

Very true. The temporal vortex that protected 1701-E, in the movie, would have had the opposite effect, given the new ramifications.

Rather that continue to show the Fleet disappearing, it would have been the fleet remain but the E disappearing, for as long as it stayed within the vortex, as it was partaking in the "new" timeline

Gurgle

L31mr0d wrote: »

What XI did was throw this standard out the Window. If the rules from XI existed in FC the Enterprise E should of seen no changes to the timeline. The timeline that they existed in would have remained unaltered and continued on as if the Borg had never travelled back in time. Instead the Borg would of split off a new timeline to the one we where viewing.

Don't they have a catch-all "If you're caught within the temporal distortion..."

i.e. the Enterprise E still existed although Earth was changed to Borgland because they were in the distortion. They just happened to be able to see out of it... and see the changed Earth.

Likewise old Spock didn't recall meeting himself because old Spock was from the un-adulterated past. Young Spock, when he gets old, presumably won't have cause to go back in time to meet himself.

cyrusdvirus

L31mr0d wrote: »

Was there ever an instance in the series' though where changing something in the past didn't affect the present timeline? I'm pretty sure the writers went to great pains to make sure anything that happened in the past was reflected in the present (from TNG: Datas head in the mine, Yars Romulan baby... etc)

It seems the latest film wanted to reset the timeline for ease of narrative in any subsequent films and just threw the book out the window.



I don't think you are fully understanding EnterNow's point. FC was true to the series' in that changes in the past had an immediate impact on the present.

What XI did was throw this standard out the Window. If the rules from XI existed in FC the Enterprise E should of seen no changes to the timeline. The timeline that they existed in would have remained unaltered and continued on as if the Borg had never travelled back in time. Instead the Borg would of split off a new timeline to the one we where viewing.

And that's the crux of my point. A change in the past has an immediate affect on the viewers present. The Enterprise C, changed the past by surviving the attack (courtesy of a handy quantum wormhole), while on it's way to relieve Narendra 3. When it went back into the past the viewers timeline was restored.

It depends on what direction the viewer (director/writer really) takes it.
In FC, the director chose to follow the timeline that had the Enterprise go back.

There would have been other timelines that simply wiped the federation from existence.

But Spock travelling back in time TO THE VIEWERS TIMELINE PERSPECTIVE had no immediate affect, because that future timeline (Prime Universe) diverged from the future timeline we will explore with the JJ-verse

norrie rugger

Gurgle wrote: »

Don't they have a catch-all "If you're caught within the temporal distortion..."

i.e. the Enterprise E still existed although Earth was changed to Borgland because they were in the distortion. They just happened to be able to see out of it... and see the changed Earth.

Likewise old Spock didn't recall meeting himself because old Spock was from the un-adulterated past. Young Spock, when he gets old, presumably won't have cause to go back in time to meet himself.

But Earth should NOT have changed outside that Vortex.
The Earth that they were trying to save should have carried on as it was, in this new explination.

REmember they said that Spock's time travel caused a new time line and that the original one continued on, as if nothing happened (other than

bye bye Romulans

L31mr0d

Gurgle wrote: »

Don't they have a catch-all "If you're caught within the temporal distortion..."

i.e. the Enterprise E still existed although Earth was changed to Borgland because they were in the distortion. They just happened to be able to see out of it... and see the changed Earth.

Likewise old Spock didn't recall meeting himself because old Spock was from the un-adulterated past. Young Spock, when he gets old, presumably won't have cause to go back in time to meet himself.

It's not the same. The temporal wake that the Enterprise E was caught in saved them from being immediately subject to the instant changes in the timeline caused by the Borg travelling back in time and assimilating Earth (see the TNG episode: Yesterday's Enterprise)

In the new Star Trek film, the difference is the timeline has split. Afair, this is completely against everything that has gone before it.

In fact, wasn't the sole purpose of the Guinan character in TNG that she was able to intuitively know the course of the timeline and when it had been altered. If changes in the past split timelines then it completely makes her character redundant.

GSPfan

If you have the perspective of the time traveller then it all kinda makes sense. ish.

Marty McFly went back in time, changed his parents events, and returned to an alternate (improved) timeline but he remembered the original one.

Enterprise E went back in time and saved Earth from any major Borg changes, but when they returned to the future they were, in fact, in an alternate timeline. With minor changes to history.

Spock travels back in time and major changes occur. So any future he travels to would be similar to Marty McFly's where there are major changes.

I think you have to assume that everytime you travel back in time and then return to your time that you are returning to an alternate timeline. Its just not noticeably different in most cases. Thats my take on it. Its hardly an exact science.

Myrddin

L31mr0d wrote: »

I don't think you are fully understanding EnterNow's point.

He's not understanding it. I fully understand the technicalities of both instances of time travel demostrated here. Gatecrash, your talking about perspective, on a whole I think you have to look at the bigger picture in both universes here.

Im not looking for an explanation on temporal paradoxes, Ive pointed out that the writers have simply chosen a new way for time travel to effect the past, as opposed to established trek interactions.

Again back to FC, when the Enterprise scanned Earth after the Borg had left, the Earth had been assimilated. The population consisted entirely of Borg, 9 billion. This was Earth Prime, universe prime, THE MAIN EARTH. The ONLY reason the the Enterprise hadnt disappeared was because it was caught in the vortexes temporal wake. So we have an example here that directly changing the past, alters the timeline. It DOESNT create alternate realities, it CHANGES the timeline.

Again back to ST XI, when Spock went back in time through the black hole, it didnt wipe out the prime universe as it should have....after all Vulcan was destroyed wasnt it?? No, it created a NEW timeline, leaving the established one fully intact.

There is a conflict here in the mechanics of time travel (trek wise). I understand both results, but regardless of what you say Gatecrash, they are in direct conflict here. In my own opinion, this is a writing ploy, in order to not give two fingers up to the established universe, and leave it....established. Nothing more, nothing less. There isnt a scientific/perspective/philosophical explanation to this, as in the "real" world, only one of these scenarios can exist.

cyrusdvirus

EnterNow wrote: »

He's not understanding it. I fully understand the technicalities of both instances of time travel demostrated here. Gatecrash, your talking about perspective, on a whole I think you have to look at the bigger picture in both universes here.

Im not looking for an explanation on temporal paradoxes, Ive pointed out that the writers have simply chosen a new way for time travel to effect the past, as opposed to established trek interactions.

Again back to FC, when the Enterprise scanned Earth after the Borg had left, the Earth had been assimilated. The population consisted entirely of Borg, 9 billion. This was Earth Prime, universe prime, THE MAIN EARTH. The ONLY reason the the Enterprise hadnt disappeared was because it was caught in the vortexes temporal wake. So we have an example here that directly changing the past, alters the timeline. It DOESNT create alternate realities, it CHANGES the timeline.

Again back to ST XI, when Spock went back in time through the black hole, it didnt wipe out the prime universe as it should have....after all Vulcan was destroyed wasnt it?? No, it created a NEW timeline, leaving the established one fully intact.

There is a conflict here in the mechanics of time travel (trek wise). I understand both results, but regardless of what you say Gatecrash, they are in direct conflict here. In my own opinion, this is a writing ploy, in order to not give two fingers up to the established universe, and leave it....established. Nothing more, nothing less. There isnt a scientific/perspective/philosophical explanation to this, as in the "real" world, only one of these scenarios can exist.

I am getting your argument, but you seem to be missing mine.

Firstly, the question asked was should Spock Prime not have remembered what happened in the Prime universe.
Spock Prime STILL has his own experiences and recollections when he arrives back in the Alternate Universe, of course he has. Absolutely every episode we've ever seen that has anything to do with time travel shows that the travellers ALWAYS remember their own history.

Spock Prime remembers his own history, even though he has no way of returning to his own (prime universe) timeline.

The only choice that the writers made is that Spock Prime cannot return to the Prime universe.

I'll remind you again of the TNG episode Paralells, where Worf was experiencing multiple timelines because of some technobabble fracture in the space time continueum. That's my point about perspective.

Yes, in FC, Earth Prime was assimilated, before first contact with the vulcans, but that was one timeline. The Enterprise E went back and semi restored the timeline. But we have no way of knowing how their interactions with Cochrane et al affected the timeline. It's quite possible that the Prime universe future was DEPENDENT on the crew of the Enterprise E going back, that the Phoenix' maiden voyage could have been a failure with out their help.

When talking about time paradoxes etc every one of us will have a different point of view.

Myrddin

gatecrash wrote: »

I am getting your argument, but you seem to be missing mine.

Firstly, the question asked was should Spock Prime not have remembered what happened in the Prime universe.
Spock Prime STILL has his own experiences and recollections when he arrives back in the Alternate Universe, of course he has. Absolutely every episode we've ever seen that has anything to do with time travel shows that the travellers ALWAYS remember their own history.

Agreed. Spock remembers the events from his own timeline, thus proving this new timeline is completely seperate. He was surprised to hear young Spock was in command of the Ent, and suggested it should be the other way around. He also suggested young Spock NOT leave Starfleet, and him and Kirk need each other.

gatecrash wrote: »

Spock Prime remembers his own history, even though he has no way of returning to his own (prime universe) timeline.

The only choice that the writers made is that Spock Prime cannot return to the Prime universe.

I'll remind you again of the TNG episode Paralells, where Worf was experiencing multiple timelines because of some technobabble fracture in the space time continueum. That's my point about perspective.

Yes, we've learned that these alternate universe hopping trips are mostly caused by accident, and not easily re-created. This will confine Spock to the alt reality.

Parallels, explored the possibilty of multiple universes, with Worf hopping from one to another. This obviously proves that timelines flow differently, and one doesnt affect the other. Ie in Parallels, there was an Ent which came from a timeline where the Federation had been assimilated and it was one of the last ships left. This obviously wasnt the case with Ent prime, so timelines are completely independant. Im with you so far

gatecrash wrote: »

Yes, in FC, Earth Prime was assimilated, before first contact with the vulcans, but that was one timeline. The Enterprise E went back and semi restored the timeline. But we have no way of knowing how their interactions with Cochrane et al affected the timeline. It's quite possible that the Prime universe future was DEPENDENT on the crew of the Enterprise E going back, that the Phoenix' maiden voyage could have been a failure with out their help.

Yes I see what your saying, I think Trek actually has a term for it - something like a pre-destination paradox (trials & tibbleations afaik). This is hard to explain, but in the terms of FC you have to see that while the events of the movie were going on, if you roll foreward to the 24th century again, the Federation is gone, assimilated. It very well may be the case that the crew were MEANT to go back in time, but while they were fixing the timeline, the present (24th century) no longer existed. I still feel that if the borg had gone into the temporal vortex, (according STXI's physics) then the sphere should have just disappeared and the crew wiped their brow and pickup up the pieces. Yes the sphere went back in time, but since XI's physics dont allow causality on the future, the assimilated Earth would have belonged to a COMPLETELY different universe, and the Ent should't have been able to see it.

gatecrash wrote: »

When talking about time paradoxes etc every one of us will have a different point of view.

Agreed, but dont you see the physical conflict of the two films' temporal physics?

GSPfan

EnterNow wrote: »

I still feel that if the borg had gone into the temporal vortex, (according STXI's physics) then the sphere should have just disappeared and the crew wiped their brow and pickup up the pieces. Yes the sphere went back in time, but since XI's physics dont allow causality on the future, the assimilated Earth would have belonged to a COMPLETELY different universe, and the Ent should't have been able to see it.

You make a compelling point. But more importantly why didnt the borg open a time vortex in the delta quadrant and then go to Earth. Why wait till they got to Earth!:)

I kinda hate thinking about time travel the way they did it in First Contact because if you go back in time and change things then your future self will be changed which means you have no need to go back in time. Creating Paradox's (In my head). Like... If you go back in time and kill yourself then you never grow up and never go back in time to kill yourself.

Cookie_Monster

GSPfan wrote: »

I kinda hate thinking about time travel the way they did it in First Contact because if you go back in time and change things then your future self will be changed which means you have no need to go back in time. Creating Paradox's (In my head). Like... If you go back in time and kill yourself then you never grow up and never go back in time to kill yourself.

Brain meltdown :pac:

GSPfan

exactly. I've discovered that the less you question, the more you enjoy.

Dr. Baltar

The way that I see it (and this has probably been said already in this thread but the more I read posts in this thread my brain melts) is there are two completely different universes and we have to look at what happened from both perspectives.

From the Perspective of the TV Show Universe Spock went through a wormhole and disappeared never to be seen or heard from again. He is presumed dead/missing and that's the end of the story. - Life continues on.

From the perspective of the alternate universe, Spock emerges from the rift into a completely different universe where he is trapped.

In a way, there is no time travel in the new Star Trek Film. It's just a different Universe that was a late bloomer: that is to say while the ST universe was in the 2300s the alternate universe was only in the 2200s.
Spock simply entered an alternate reality that hadn't evolved on the same pace as the prime reality.

Myrddin

Dr. Baltar wrote: »

In a way, there is no time travel in the new Star Trek Film. It's just a different Universe that was a late bloomer: that is to say while the ST universe was in the 2300s the alternate universe was only in the 2200s.
Spock simply entered an alternate reality that hadn't evolved on the same pace as the prime reality.

I could be wrong, but wasnt it mentioned in the film that the two timelines were identical, right up until the Romulan ship first emerged from the rift?

And didnt he also ask the captain of the Kelvin what year it was? Upon hearing the year he killed the captain, presumably after realising he had travelled back in time?

cyrusdvirus

EnterNow wrote: »

I could be wrong, but wasnt it mentioned in the film that the two timelines were identical, right up until the Romulan ship first emerged from the rift?

And didnt he also ask the captain of the Kelvin what year it was? Upon hearing the year he killed the captain, presumably after realising he had travelled back in time?

Dunno about mentioned, but it's certainly implied.

And at that point the Prime universe and the JJ universe diverged.

novarock

Dont forget when talking about Time Travel to consult the best source of knowledge we have - Back to the Future..

Stabshauptmann

God this is all so very very simple and consistent with timetravel as used as a plot device in other movies and tv shows.

First Contact uses the ripple effect as per Back to the Future, and SG Continuum.
When someone goes back in time and makes changes to what happened, this affects the future. Theoretically this should happen instantenously; i.e when the borg ship travelled back in time the enterprise should have instantly ceased to exist.

The writers used the temporal wake plot device to give the enterprise a chance to go back in time to the same point as the borg. By stopping the borg from affecting the time line nothing changed. The future unfolds just as it would have had the enterprise and borg not gone back in time, and everything is dandy.

In Star Trex XI, Nero and Spock are in a battle in the future. They both get accidently pulled back in time. Nero's ship arrives first. It destroys the USS Kelvin and from this point on the events that we see unfold in the film change the future as we know it in the ST universe.

25 years later spock's ship arrives in the past. What you all seem to be forgetting is though it arrives 25 years after nero, it left the future at the same point in time Nero did. After Spock arrives in the past Nero destroys Vulcan - this does not cause Spock to never exist because a) in this timeline spock isnt on Vulcan, and b) old Spock left the future at the same time Nero did.

This model of time travel is not like the back to the future model. Lets call it the shoe lace model. You can take the lace as a methaphore for a persons life. The lace unfolds over the course of someones life.

You can bend the lace back on itself, or loop it and tie it in knots if you travel through time. It helps to imagine time as static, and the traveller is fluid.

If someone were to cut the lace at any one point, everything after that ceases to be. If I kill a 19yo Marty McFly in 1950s, he is still arounds as a kid in the 70s and 80s.
If I kill a 19yo Mrs McFly in 1050, Marty will never be born.
Back to the future actually contains a paradox which defeats its own logic. It should be impossible to travel back in time and stop your own birth, because by doing so you would not exist, and thus not travel back in time, and thus have not prevented anything. This model gives rise to predestination paradoxs.

ST avoids this paradox.
ST uses a different time travel model. It treats the timeline as fluid, but the traveller as static. Once you travel back in time you become seperated from the timeline you came from and join the new timeline. Imagine a long boat moving down a river. You should be sitting at the front. If you move to the back of the boat and sit down, nothing you do will change the fact that for the past 20mins you were sitting at the front. You can however now interfere with the people who were sitting behind you.

Also, even though you were at the front of the boat for 20mins, and could see where the boat went, you cant see where the boat is going now.

pah

Temporal mechanics always gave me a headache at the academy :rolleyes:





I think if you take your frame of reference as Spock Prime then everything that happened in TOS and further series still exists through him.

I agree with earlier posts that all trips to the past cause an alternate reality but it's usually confined so that it's not noticable.

The argument about First Contact was shouldn't the Borg Cube have simply disappeared to go back and branch of it's alternate reality.... Well you know what I've been thinking and rethinking this post for 20 mins and it's 05.30 so fcuk it, I give up. I still enjoyed the movie and all TOS etc is preserved from Spock Primes perspective - good enough for me.

dob99

Who's to say that the original timeline still exists? It's just been been assumed that it does because nobody wants to face up to fact that JJ has basically given the two fingers to all of us who have followed it over several centuries.

But seriously, the Ent-E survived the (catastrophic) changes in the timeline because it was caught in the temporal rift created by the Borg sphere. (AFAIR, this was explained, at least somewhat, in FC.) I know that lots of episodes have dealt with time travel and they all assume that changes made in the past affect the future. But, why are we assuming that ST XI is different? Why can't what happened when Spock Prime came back have wiped out everything we've been watching for 40 years?

It's not called a reboot for nothing!!!