What IS Feminism? *MOD WARNING POST 39*

Nevyn

donegalfella wrote: »

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They are, there are women defying the law and encouraging other women to do so by driving together in cars with out a man present.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1576182/Saudi-Arabia-to-lift-ban-on-women-drivers.html

Saudi Arabia to lift ban on women drivers


By Damien McElroy in Riyadh
Published: 12:01AM GMT 21 Jan 2008

Saudi Arabia is to lift its ban on women drivers in an attempt to stem a rising suffragette-style movement in the deeply conservative state.

Government officials have confirmed the landmark decision and plan to issue a decree by the end of the year.


The move is designed to forestall campaigns for greater freedom by women, which have recently included protesters driving cars through the Islamic state in defiance of a threat of detention and loss of livelihoods.

The royal family has previously balked at granting women driving permits, claiming the step did not have full public support. The driving ban dates back to the establishment of the state in 1932, although recently the government line has weakened.

"There has been a decision to move on this by the Royal Court because it is recognised that if girls have been in schools since the 1960s, they have a capability to function behind the wheel when they grow up," a government official told The Daily Telegraph. "We will make an announcement soon."

Abdulaziz bin Salamah, the deputy information minister, said the official reform programme had been dogged by debate over the issue.

"In terms of women driving, we don't have it now because of the reticence of some segments of society," he said. "For example, my mother wouldn't want my sister to drive.

"It's something she cannot grapple with. But there is change on the way. I think the fair view is that one can be against it but one does not have the right to prevent it."

If the ban on women driving is lifted, it could be years before the full impact is seen. Practical hurdles stopping women obtaining licences and insurance must be overcome.

Mohammad al-Zulfa, a reformist member of the Saudi consultative Shura Council, which scrutinises official policies in the oil-rich state, said reversing the ban was part of King Abdullah's "clever" strategy of incremental reform.

"When it was first raised, the extremists were really mad," he said. "Now they just complain. It is diminishing into a form of consent."

Saudi Arabia maintains a strict segregation of the sexes outside the family home.

An unaccompanied woman must shop behind curtains and cannot hail a taxi.

Critics believe allowing women to drive would be the first step towards a gradual erosion of the kingdom's modesty laws. A woman would have to remove the traditional abaya robe to get a clear view behind the wheel.

"Allowing women to drive will only bring sin," a letter to Al-Watan newspaper declared last year. "The evils it would bring - mixing between the genders, temptations, and tarnishing the reputation of devout Muslim women - outweigh the benefits."

Saudi women have mounted growing protests. Fouzia al-Ayouni, the country's most prominent women's rights campaigner, has risked arrest by leading convoys of women drivers. "We have broken the barrier of fear," she said. "We want the authorities to know that we're here, that we want to drive, and that many people feel the way we do."

donegalfella wrote: »

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That is the same as saying there are thousands of children dying of starvation and neglect in Sudan so Barnardos should not concern themselves with children at risk in this country.

donegalfella wrote: »

Honestly, can feminists really turn their backs on women who are being stoned, lashed, and having their throats cut, and blithely continue on talking about Brazilian waxing, as if that mattered more?

I have never heard feminists either male or female do that, have you?
Are there any examples you would like to site?

Permabear

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Wibbs

Activism like charity begins at home IMHO.

BumbleB

This thread is just a classic example of why when you meet a feminist you should run the other way

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You talk about oppression but what about the poor kids in pakistan sewing footballs in sweat shops for nike for cents ,and the young girls in thailand.

LittleBook

Wibbs wrote: »

Activism like charity begins at home IMHO.

True. In the beginning, the feminist movement was concentrated in the upper classes, simply because these were the women who had the time, the money and the influence to actually effect any change. Eventually the changes effected spread to the lower classes.

It's not that feminism is exclusive to any country or race, it's that people focus on their own worlds before they can begin to impact on others.

biko

For me feminism is about equality between the genders

Silverfish

BumbleB wrote: »

This thread is just a classic example of why when you meet a feminist you should run the other way

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You talk about oppression but what about the poor kids in pakistan sewing footballs in sweat shops for nike for cents ,and the young girls in thailand.

Once again, you may start a new thread in Humanities for any of these topics, but we are discussing this one, in the Ladies Lounge, as a topic which affects women, from a women's perspective.

Please read the charter, and please do not take this thread off topic. Thank you.

Any more posts stating that this topic should not be discussed etc, will be removed, as enough warnings have been given.

Macha

I understand the view that talking about magazines and botox is trivial when women around the world are suffering from a lot worse.

I hear this argument so many times whenever a certain cause/plight/issue/problem is being discussed. And at the end of the day, there will always be issues that one person considers more important than another person.

In my opinion, of course women have it a lot tougher in other countries but I still feel it's important to look at the issues that women (and any other group) face in Ireland today. After all, this is where we have the most influence and understanding. And to be honest it's a little hard to know what to do about situations like the onein Saudi Arabia. I mean, I sign all the petitions and donate to charity etc but after that it starts to get into diplomatic and political levels.

And like it or not, it's human nature to identify more with your own nationality/neighbours/part of the world etc. (The Christian idea to 'Love your neighbour as you love yourself', while noble, is entirely impossible for a human to achieve).

Permabear

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Macha

donegalfella wrote: »

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Yeah and I am outraged but do you want to try boycotting oil? Or everything made in China? I try and consider myself to be a far more ethical consumer in terms of all three issues (human rights, animal welfare and the environment) than most but if you cut out everything then it gets incredibly tough.

In "Hot, Flat and Crowded", Friedman makes a clear link between the high price of oil and the reduction of tolerance in many oil-producing companies. Ireland spends €6bn/year on imported energy, much of it from Saudi and other such countries. I personally see weaning this country off oil as much about benefiting us as it is stopping the river of money to these regimes. And it's one of the reasons I cycle instead of driving. But it goes deeper into issues like urban planning, public transport, renewable energy (and again it was a motive for me to change career to work in the area of sustainability)

donegalfella wrote: »

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Who is oblivious? All the feminists I know are far from oblivious. A friend of mine works for Akidwa, the African women's centre in Dublin. I used to live in Saudi Arabia so I am more than aware of what it's like there. I regularly read articles on FGM, gender imbalanced due to selective abortions and violence against women in war-torn regions. But I also read articles about the pay gap, parental rights and the impact of our culture on women's self esteem. I don't feel the need to choose between the two.

Nevyn

This thread wasn't about what do feminists in this country know about the woes of women in other countries this thread is about what feminism is, it's about equality, empowerment awareness and activism.

The awareness of such issues as you described and activism on them will not come about while people distance themselves from feminism and don't read the blogs and sites and inform themselves of what is going on.

By exploring what IS feminism and what is means to women and men it makes peple think and creates awareness and hopefully enpowerment and then activism.

Permabear

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Nevyn

I would not read the F-word site off the bat cos it doesn't have the balls to even use the word feminism in it's title and I think you are making sweeping statements and saying I see a red apple, all apples are red.

Seaneh

What *IS Feninism?"


A heap of ****e.

/thread.

Silverfish

Can't say there weren't enough warnings.

Seaneh banned.

Macha

donegalfella wrote: »

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Look, you're right to a certain degree but as I said before, every movement has it's more superficial or lunatic edges. You're picking at the edges and to be honest I could do that to any movement.

As for that book, I think you'll see what bad reviews it gets. To be honest, look at the feckin cover. It looks like it's aimed at exactly the same market as Cosmopolitan readers. Why not talk about the new book 'Half The Sky'? I can't afford it until it gets out in paperback but I can hardly wait.

And you didn't respond to my points about us being far more economically tied to some of these countries. I mean what is the value of trade between Ireland and South Africa (during apartheid) and Ireland and Saudi Arabia or Pakistan now? I hope drug users are aware that most opium comes from Afghanistan, one of the most misogynistic regimes on earth, but let's be realistic here.

Permabear

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Permabear

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Macha

donegalfella wrote: »

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God, men are just so SELFISH and NEEDY! :pac:

Nevyn

donegalfella wrote: »

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Try reading feminsting.com or The Feminist Agenda or The Curvature
instead. Unfortunately there is not the same type blogs for this country.

metrovelvet

Right now in the west I would say feminism is less about equal rights and more about equal privalege. Right now I think very young women,teens, and post menopausal women need addressing and for feminists to help them and stop picketing about porn and Christmas being patriarchal and other such crap.

Permabear

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southsiderosie

donegalfella wrote: »

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But a lot of these issues are interrelated. First, to use your example, there are many Muslim women who look with horror at the over-sexualized, non-family friendly culture of the West and think, "no thanks". Many defenders of hijab, for example, note that it forces men to deal with them as human beings, not as sexual beings. Second, to many non-western women, being lectured by the west smacks of cultural imperialism - especially because to their eyes, Western society is so ****ed up. Finally women in other cultures are aware of their situations, but perhaps do not view them through the exact same lens; much of the debate around the question of "Is Multiculturalism Bad for Women" (which started as an essay, and turned into a book) revolved around this very issue.

I do think however, within its own "sphere of influence", that Western feminism has done a pretty crappy job of dealing with issues of class and race (especially in the US). Class is particularly important: as women increasingly move into the workplace, but continue to have families, somebody still has to watch the children (and cook and clean), and quite often this "someone" is another woman, often a woman of color or an immigrant with a family of her own. These kinds of domestic jobs are often exempt from normal labor laws, do not come with social security or benefits, and can quite often be open to huge abuses. Sadly, the "liberation" of middle and upper-middle class women from the home to the office - in part to achieve their own economic security - has done little for the socioeconomic security of their working class sisters.

metrovelvet

It's a curious coincidence that brazillian waxing and sharia law are on the same continuum. Some years back I asked my beautician if she had seen a rise in the requests for brazilians. And she said yes but not so much from Irish women but from Islamic women who had come into the country.

Women's hair has always been a hot topic throughout the ages. So its no surprise pubic hair is too. I think some peoples issue with the brazillian is that it makes you look pre pubescent.

A friend's father said to us once, "There is more strength in one pubic hair of a woman, then there is in an army of men."

We really didnt know what to say to that.

Macha

donegalfella wrote: »

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I understand what you're saying, but how big a problem is it really? I don't know - maybe it's because I'm not one of those feminists that I don't really experience it. When I'm talking about it with my female friends, the plight of women in Afghanistan or Saudi doesn't provoke much controversy but when we talk about cultural issues in Ireland, it's a lot more subtle and it generates more debate.

donegalfella wrote: »

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Great - let us know what you think of it.

donegalfella wrote: »

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See, I identify books like that as part of the problem. It's just a continuation of the 'women will only be interested in this if I make it pink and cover it in sparkles' mindset that I object to. It's like the market views feminism as just another thing or trend to co-opt, repackage and sell without a single trace of irony.

donegalfella wrote: »

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I think you'll find a lot of sexist things are accepted where a similar racist thing isn't. I genuinely believe that. Sexist jokes are par for the course but say a racist one you'll get a lot more nervous laughter (not that I'm saying there's anything wrong with either sexist or racist jokes once there's no malicious intent). The blatant stereotyping of women (and men) all over our culture when similar stereotyping of different races would be met with general disapproval.

Also, I suppose this is a whole other thread but I don't think you can just dismiss all of Islam like that. Islam and the culture of the countries it is strong in are very interwoven but a lot of the sexism is cultural, not religious. Similarly, Christianity is incredibly misogynistic but most of it is rooted in our culture/society as well. southsiderosie's post reminds me of this pretty famous photo:



In both photos, the bodies of the women are subject to the will of men. In the first, the woman is incredibly slim, sexualised and very exposed. In the other, she is covered up because she might tempt a man. Of course it is a false dichotomy and the pressures of the Western fixation on female beauty is nowhere near as bad as the treatment of women in some countries. But I would just be just as wary of the Islam = bad, us = good dichotomy.

Joycey

panda100 wrote: »

In Ireland we do not have the right not to have a baby

I never said anything about which rights are recognised by the Irish government. I just said in response to someone who said that there is no difference between the rights of a man and woman, and hence womens rights = peoples rights, that there may be a case there for saying that there should be a difference between the genders.

When I said the right (not) to have a baby I was thinking about abortion, but also the 'right' to have IVF if you are infertile. If we decide that people have a right to have babies then it means that we should be funding really expensive infertility treatments through the state. Im not sure where I stand on the whole thing but that was just to clarify.

donegalfella wrote: »

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Recognising yourself as being part of a certain social group is empowering because it allows you to see the social processes or structures which have helped to bring about your relative level of priveledge or lack of power. It seems to me entirely selfish to want to raise only yourself out of inequality. You gain power by uniting with those who face the same struggle as you do, and hence it is only fitting and healthy that a "collectivist mentality" forms between those engaged in the same fight.

While I agree that it may be unfortunate if people start getting called traitors if they are not lesbians, you could probably see the same thing happening with groups like the black panthers in the States, who, while aspects of their actions may have been regrettable, are understandable as a backlash to societal repression of a certain group.

My worry is that what we both see as superficial is, for many self-described feminists, quite central. They'd rather think about what brazilian waxing means for them than for what sharia law means for millions of women around the world. I find that depressing; but I also think it's true. As the father of a two-month-old baby girl, I've found myself thinking a lot about politics a lot in the context of raising children—and I'm determined that my daughter learn to think beyond the confines of her immediate surroundings.

I agree with you completely here. But isnt what your proposing just another kind of "collectivist mentality"? I think its rediculous that feminists will get up in arms about something relatively trivial, yet not recognise other far more important restrictions of people's (even other women's) freedom in other parts of the world or even in their own society. The difference between your average middle class Irish woman and a male equivalent, and a single mother with 3 kids on the dole who never finished secondary school is so different that anyone claiming to be fighting for "women's rights" as a feminist needs to take a good look at the structures which bring about that disparity, and not necessarily just looking at representations of women in the media (which is obviously still an issue). Its that kind of hypocrisy that is my major critique of feminism as it exists today for the most part

Permabear

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Macha

donegalfella wrote: »

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Again, I'm just wondering how many feminists are really that unaware of the situation in Saudi etc.. And I think a lot of people do appreciate how liberated women are in Ireland, then again you're right that many don't.

But you know I attribute a lot of the petty moaning to how superficial and egotistic our society has become (I know we were talking about this in Politics ). I think many women and men don't really look outside their own wants and needs. For example the flooding late last year in Cork was frequently described as 'catastrophic' and 'devastating' and the radio was full of stories of people having to walk a few miles for fresh water and how shocking that is in the 21st century. I mean 40% of this world doesn't have access to proper sanitation - let's have a little perspective before we turn the hyperbole switch onto full blast! Has this same attitude permeated a part of the feminist movement in the West? Probably.

donegalfella wrote: »

Sadly, it's not done gratuitously: If women weren't snapping up pink and sparkly things in droves, marketers wouldn't be making them. I see adult women these days sporting accessories that once would have been considered silly on anybody over the age of 16. I know that it's not all women, but it's enough women to drive a regressive trend towards fetishizing things that were once the domain of children.

And I wonder why is that? I consider there to be a trend in our society to fetishize youth in women to the extreme: women are called 'girls' until they're well into their 20s. There is actually an ad doing the rounds telling women their worst enemy is time (silly me thinking it's cancer or dangerous driving). The fixation on appearance and the need to keep everything defying gravity is part of the same trend.

A lot of this is based on cultural norms. In the 19th century, pink was considered too aggressive a colour for women. Now it's pink all the way so IMO if that many women are drawn to pink, we can't put it down to evolutionary biology - which leaves cultural influence.

Perhaps Western feminists need to address this flaw in our own movement in order to get rid of the petty distractions and focus our attention properly on the real issues at hand? Then again, maybe it will lead to another extended period of navel-gazing while women suffer around the world.

donegalfella wrote: »

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Well..so would you agree then that it isn't necessarily religion itself but rather the lack of separation between religion and state? Look at certain communes in Israel or sects in the US where women are kept as slaves. What is the common theme (apart from it all coming from Judaism/Christianity/Islam)? It's when religion moves out of the home and into the institutions of governance.

donegalfella wrote: »

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OK I don't think you're comparing like with like. If we're coming to compare extremes then you have to compare Saudi with somewhere like L.A. Whatever about social pressures in Ireland, I would never raise my daughter (if I had one) somewhere like LA because of the pressure on her to conform. If you compare a more moderate Islamic country with Ireland, you'll see some women actually feel sorry for us:

Size six: The Western women's harem

Yes, I suddenly felt not only very ugly, but also quite useless in that store, where, if you had big hips, you were simply out of the picture. You drifted into the fringes of nothingness. By putting the spotlight on the prepubescent female, the Western man veils the older, more mature woman, wrapping her in shrouds of ugliness. This idea gives me the chills because it tattoos the invisible harem directly onto a woman’s skin. Chinese foot-binding worked the same way. Men declared beautiful only those women who had small, childlike feet. In feudal China, a beautiful woman was the one who voluntarily sacrificed her right to unhindered physical movement by mutilating her own feet, and thereby proving that her main goal in life was to please men. Similarly, in the Western world, I was expected to shrink my hips into a size six if I wanted to find a decent skirt tailored for a beautiful woman. We Muslim women have only one month of fasting, Ramadan, but the poor Western woman who diets has to fast 12 months a year.

http://www.odemagazine.com/doc/6/size_six_the_western_women_s_harem/

Now I don't agree with her claim that it's men that are pushing this all the way. And many women are complicit in their acceptance of narrow beauty norms (often to the detriment of their own mental health - I can testify to that) but men do benefit from the emphasis in our society on female beauty.

donegalfella wrote: »

The woman in the bikini may be considered slim—but I'm guessing her BMI is within normal range. By contrast, two thirds of Saudi women are obese, because going to a fitness club or exercising in public are considered immoral.

She looks like she has very low body fat. Unless she's naturally like that, she would have to seriously limit her calorie intake and undertake a considerable amount of cardio/interval exercise. Are 2/3rds of Saudi women obese :eek: I wonder how that compares to the US??

Herbal Deity

Thaedydal wrote: »

I hate they way discussion on feminism become about men's rights and abortion.

You must admit that this indicates that feminism has some serious marketing issues.

Also, the fact that "feminism" means a huge amount of different things to different people renders the term useless.

Nevyn

Herbal Deity wrote: »

You must admit that this indicates that feminism has some serious marketing issues.

Pr not marking isuses.

Herbal Deity wrote: »

Also, the fact that "feminism" means a huge amount of different things to different people renders the term useless.

The cores ideals are the same the range of issues which impact on those is wide ranging depends on a woman's life, but the core doesn't change.

Herbal Deity

Thaedydal wrote: »

Pr not marking isuses.

Semantics. You know what I mean.

Thaedydal wrote: »

The cores ideals are the same the range of issues which impact on those is wide ranging depends on a woman's life, but the core doesn't change.

My apologies, but I'm having an extremely difficult time trying to decipher what this sentence means...

metrovelvet

donegalfella wrote: »

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Its not that long ago that Ireland was a theocracy and not dissimilar to how Islamic nations treat their women. Remember the magdalene laundries?

Nevyn

The core ideals of feminism being self determnation, women's rights and female empowerment are the same, they don't change, so I don't see how that is confusing.

The range of issues which effect those certainly is wide ranging and different ones will effect different women depending on where they live.

metrovelvet

Thaedydal wrote: »

The core ideals of feminism being self determnation, women's rights and female empowerment are the same, they don't change, so I don't see how that is confusing.

The range of issues which effect those certainly is wide ranging and different ones will effect different women depending on where they live.

But dont you think its propritorship over the universality of women is just not appropriate anymore. I would argue that I have more in common with men of my own culture than I do with 19 year old somalian woman. What might we share? That we are both secondary in our respective cultures?

Herbal Deity

Thaedydal wrote: »

The core ideals of feminism being self determnation, women's rights and female empowerment are the same, they don't change, so I don't see how that is confusing.

But self determination, women's rights and female empowerment are far too vague terms to be meaningful core ideals.

Basically my point is that if two people can say "I am a feminist" and have radically different viewpoints on what this means, then the phrase "I am a feminist" means absolutely nothing. With all the offshoots and differing opinions to the point that there is no general ideology that "feminist" implies, the term is therefore not well defined, and IMO this is one of the major failings of feminism in the 21st century.

Herbal Deity

metrovelvet wrote: »

But dont you think its propritorship over the universality of women is just not appropriate anymore. I would argue that I have more in common with men of my own culture than I do with 19 year old somalian woman. What might we share? That we are both secondary in our respective cultures?

I 100% agree.

I think the association of the word "feminism" with ALL women in the whole world is silly. I think women's rights in the third world and social pressures on women in the first world are, quite literally, worlds apart, and should be treated as completely different things.

metrovelvet

Herbal Deity wrote: »

I 100% agree.

I think the association of the word "feminism" with ALL women in the whole world is silly. I think women's rights in the third world and social pressures on women in the first world are, quite literally, worlds apart, and should be treated as completely different things.

The rights are widely different. The social pressures, the second status are on the same continuum but the punishments are far less in the west. Feminism wont solve this though because women dont get listened to and feminists are just another bunch of irrational women right? It would take men to change things because that's who men listen to, other men.

Herbal Deity

metrovelvet wrote: »

The rights are widely different. The social pressures, the second status are on the same continuum but the punishments are far less in the west. Feminism wont solve this though because women dont get listened to and feminists are just another bunch of irrational women right? It would take men to change things because that's who men listen to, other men.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here...

Nevyn

I know pro life feminist and pro choice feminists and male feminists, liberal feminists and conservative feminists, the idea that all feminist must agree on everything is frankly stupid.

metrovelvet

In the west we have the right to vote and own property same as men. We have parenting rights, the right to hold a job or bank account. The right to a fair trial, the right to hold a licence, the right to drink alcohol and smoke in public and girls have a right to an education. The law officially treats us the same.

Not so in other countries. I think we can agree on that.

But in the west, the social expecations are not unlike those in the rest of the world. They may not be as intense or robust or earn the same vilfication if violated but they do exist.

No one likes a mouthy woman. No one likes a pushy woman. No lne likes an old woman. No one likes a bossy woman. And often women do not get heard because they are perceived as silly little irrational creatures. But this wont ever change.

Macha

metrovelvet wrote: »

But in the west, the social expecations are not unlike those in the rest of the world. They may not be as intense or robust or earn the same vilfication if violated but they do exist.

And in some cases, we are still waiting for a few legal changes.

I know it's been done to death but just look at Article 41 of the Irish Constitution:

2. 1° In particular, the State recognises that by her life within the home, woman gives to the State a support without which the common good cannot be achieved.

2° The State shall, therefore, endeavour to ensure that mothers shall not be obliged by economic necessity to engage in labour to the neglect of their duties in the home.

Equality in Ireland? Not quite yet..

I'd also have issues with Article 41.1

Permabear

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Nevyn

donegalfella wrote: »

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Some do not all and most of that won't change while we don't have proper socail studies in schools. Most of our young people leave mandatory education utterly unaware of the changes of the last 50 years in terms of rights and equality for both genders.

donegalfella wrote: »

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Again this for me boils down to choice, if this is an extra choice some women want great, if it limits my choices as a woman and results in being shown pick tech in a sexist way or the assumption I will want the pink one then you bet your arse I will raise a fuss.

I do have a problem with the pinkifcation of a girls world.
Recently my daughter wanted a DS, she prefered the green one but felt she had to have the pink one as that is for girls.

My daughter knows I hate pink, I have said as long as it's her choice and she knows she can have any other colour then I am ok with that.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/london/hi/people_and_places/newsid_8399000/8399994.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8402628.stm

This has even extended to lego which one would think is a gender neutral toy.

This is a lego add from 1981


and this is how lego markets it's self for girls now
http://belville.lego.com/en-us/default.aspx


Frankly raising an independent thinking female child is harder then most people may think.

donegalfella wrote: »

I don't know—I think men tend to prefer normal women who do not have a neurotic relationship to their appearance. But maybe that's just me?

I don't think most men are aware of the possible neurotic relationship women can have with their appearance and their body esp after childbirth with the rise of mammy make overs and in some cases plastic surgery to fix the "damange" done to the body after childbirth.

what is considered 'normal' can become so skewed, but sites like this may help some to come to terms with their new shape so that few couples break up due to lack of intimacy between partners after a baby.

http://theshapeofamother.com/about-this-site/
Site will have naked shots and will have stretch marks

metrovelvet

Thaedydal wrote: »

Some do not all and most of that won't change while we don't have proper socail studies in schools. Most of our young people leave mandatory education utterly unaware of the changes of the last 50 years in terms of rights and equality for both genders.



Again this for me boils down to choice, if this is an extra choice some women want great, if it limits my choices as a woman and results in being shown pick tech in a sexist way or the assumption I will want the pink one then you bet your arse I will raise a fuss.

I do have a problem with the pinkifcation of a girls world.
Recently my daughter wanted a DS, she prefered the green one but felt she had to have the pink one as that is for girls.

My daughter knows I hate pink, I have said as long as it's her choice and she knows she can have any other colour then I am ok with that.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/london/hi/people_and_places/newsid_8399000/8399994.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8402628.stm

This has even extended to lego which one would think is a gender neutral toy.

This is a lego add from 1981


and this is how lego markets it's self for girls now
http://belville.lego.com/en-us/default.aspx


Frankly raising an independent thinking female child is harder then most people may think.




I don't think most men are aware of the possible neurotic relationship women can have with their appearance and their body esp after childbirth with the rise of mammy make overs and in some cases plastic surgery to fix the "damange" done to the body after childbirth.

what is considered 'normal' can become so skewed, but sites like this may help some to come to terms with their new shape so that few couples break up due to lack of intimacy between partners after a baby.

http://theshapeofamother.com/about-this-site/
Site will have naked shots and will have stretch marks

Eh. I am a mother, an older mother, and my body doesnt look anything like those pictures. Not only that, but I have seen stretchmarks and flab hanging over the waist if way too low rise pants on 20 year olds.

As for pink. I like pink but I hate the pink on girls toys. So glad I have trains all over the floor and not pink crap. But, yes I imagine it is tough raising a girl.

biko

On a recent survivor show the people on an Pacific island could get things sent to them.
This girl asked for a machete, the TV production team at home sent her a box of make up...

Jesus Wept

Walls wrote: »

The Male Privilege Checklist

1. My odds of being hired for a job, when competing against female applicants, are probably skewed in my favor. The more prestigious the job, the larger the odds are skewed.

2. I can be confident that my co-workers won’t think I got my job because of my sex - even though that might be true. (More).

3. If I am never promoted, it’s not because of my sex.

4. If I fail in my job or career, I can feel sure this won’t be seen as a black mark against my entire sex’s capabilities.

5. I am far less likely to face sexual harassment at work than my female co-workers are. (More).

6. If I do the same task as a woman, and if the measurement is at all subjective, chances are people will think I did a better job.

7. If I’m a teen or adult, and if I can stay out of prison, my odds of being raped are relatively low. (More).

8. On average, I am taught to fear walking alone after dark in average public spaces much less than my female counterparts are.

9. If I choose not to have children, my masculinity will not be called into question.

10. If I have children but do not provide primary care for them, my masculinity will not be called into question.

11. If I have children and provide primary care for them, I’ll be praised for extraordinary parenting if I’m even marginally competent. (More).

12. If I have children and a career, no one will think I’m selfish for not staying at home.

13. If I seek political office, my relationship with my children, or who I hire to take care of them, will probably not be scrutinized by the press.

14. My elected representatives are mostly people of my own sex. The more prestigious and powerful the elected position, the more this is true.

15. When I ask to see “the person in charge,” odds are I will face a person of my own sex. The higher-up in the organization the person is, the surer I can be.

16. As a child, chances are I was encouraged to be more active and outgoing than my sisters. (More).

17. As a child, I could choose from an almost infinite variety of children’s media featuring positive, active, non-stereotyped heroes of my own sex. I never had to look for it; male protagonists were (and are) the default.

18. As a child, chances are I got more teacher attention than girls who raised their hands just as often. (More).

19. If my day, week or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether or not it has sexist overtones.

20. I can turn on the television or glance at the front page of the newspaper and see people of my own sex widely represented, every day, without exception.

21. If I’m careless with my financial affairs it won’t be attributed to my sex.

22. If I’m careless with my driving it won’t be attributed to my sex.

23. I can speak in public to a large group without putting my sex on trial.

24. Even if I sleep with a lot of women, there is no chance that I will be seriously labeled a “slut,” nor is there any male counterpart to “slut-bashing.” (More).

25. I do not have to worry about the message my wardrobe sends about my sexual availability or my gender conformity. (More).

26. My clothing is typically less expensive and better-constructed than women’s clothing for the same social status. While I have fewer options, my clothes will probably fit better than a woman’s without tailoring. (More).

27. The grooming regimen expected of me is relatively cheap and consumes little time. (More).

28. If I buy a new car, chances are I’ll be offered a better price than a woman buying the same car. (More).

29. If I’m not conventionally attractive, the disadvantages are relatively small and easy to ignore.

30. I can be loud with no fear of being called a shrew. I can be aggressive with no fear of being called a bitch.

31. I can ask for legal protection from violence that happens mostly to men without being seen as a selfish special interest, since that kind of violence is called “crime” and is a general social concern. (Violence that happens mostly to women is usually called “domestic violence” or “acquaintance rape,” and is seen as a special interest issue.)

32. I can be confident that the ordinary language of day-to-day existence will always include my sex. “All men are created equal,” mailman, chairman, freshman, he.

33. My ability to make important decisions and my capability in general will never be questioned depending on what time of the month it is.

34. I will never be expected to change my name upon marriage or questioned if I don’t change my name.

35. The decision to hire me will never be based on assumptions about whether or not I might choose to have a family sometime soon.

36. Every major religion in the world is led primarily by people of my own sex. Even God, in most major religions, is pictured as male.

37. Most major religions argue that I should be the head of my household, while my wife and children should be subservient to me.

38. If I have a wife or live-in girlfriend, chances are we’ll divide up household chores so that she does most of the labor, and in particular the most repetitive and unrewarding tasks. (More).

39. If I have children with a wife or girlfriend, chances are she’ll do most of the childrearing, and in particular the most dirty, repetitive and unrewarding parts of childrearing.

40. If I have children with a wife or girlfriend, and it turns out that one of us needs to make career sacrifices to raise the kids, chances are we’ll both assume the career sacrificed should be hers.

41. Magazines, billboards, television, movies, pornography, and virtually all of media is filled with images of scantily-clad women intended to appeal to me sexually. Such images of men exist, but are rarer.

42. In general, I am under much less pressure to be thin than my female counterparts are. (More). If I am fat, I probably suffer fewer social and economic consequences for being fat than fat women do. (More).

43. If I am heterosexual, it’s incredibly unlikely that I’ll ever be beaten up by a spouse or lover. (More).

44. Complete strangers generally do not walk up to me on the street and tell me to “smile.” (More: 1 2).

45. On average, I am not interrupted by women as often as women are interrupted by men.

46. I have the privilege of being unaware of my male privilege.

It is lists like this that drag us back towards the dark ages because a lot of them are flat out wrong or subjective.

Here's a particularly offensive one you should put to rest quickly:

43. If I am heterosexual, it’s incredibly unlikely that I’ll ever be beaten up by a spouse or lover. (More).

Female domestic violence

Herbal Deity

The-Rigger wrote: »

It is lists like this that drag us back towards the dark ages because a lot of them are flat out wrong or subjective.

Agreed, most of them are distorted truths really.

It would be very easy to write such a list about females, even taking some of the exact statements from that list and rewording them so they imply a bias towards females would be sufficient.

Macha

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Whoa there. Maybe some feminists have been affected by it but there are plenty more who don't. Plus look at any topic of conversation on boards - most if it is trivial and local. In the Politics section, there is an Irish general forum, then an EU forum, a US forum (set up after 2008 election) and an Irish Economy forum. Where is the global issues forum? The main international issue that gets attention is Israel/Palestine, an issue quite similar to that of apartheid South Africa, suspiciously enough..

donegalfella wrote: »

You're right. But aren't women partly (or even mostly) doing this to themselves? Don't adult women regularly call other women "girls"? Haven't phrases like "girls' night out" become part of our cultural lexicon? And don't women themselves fetishize youth?

Yes, I do get annoyed at women who help perpetuate the nonsense. But as a woman, I can tell you it's hard sometimes to fight against the cultural norms that are instilled in you from an early age. Do I obsess over my appearance more than is healthy? Yes. At a purely objective level am I capable of understanding the cultural forces at work? Yes but it's deeply ingrained in my mentality. And if I think about these things a lot and still find it hard to change my thought patterns, what can I expect from women who don't really think about these things?

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Because you see women are rewarded for being complicit. I was just listening to a podcast about Penn State University, US where girls dress up as "sluts" (their own word) to make sure they get into the various frat parties. Women who speak out do get labelled as 'bossy' and 'bitchy' - I've seen it happen myself. Research has shown that women who ask for raises are viewed more negatively than men who ask for raises. We seem to have a situation where women are punished for being assertive and rewarded for presenting themselves in as child-like a way as possible.

This post does a good job of explaining part of the phenomenon (maybe nsfw):

http://contexts.org/socimages/2009/10/31/women-dressing-up-like-little-girls-dressing-up-like-women/

And of course this works both ways: men are not encouraged to appear vulnerable or emotional. As a radical feminist, I believe that men and women suffer from the stereotyping if they don't fit in. For example, girls are allowed to wear trousers but imagine the reaction if a boy wanted to wear a skirt?

donegalfella wrote: »

But again, I see a huge difference here. The California police aren't going around beating women for not wearing bikinis. You have to draw a distinction between situations where women feel peer or media pressure to look a certain way, and those where women are compelled by law.

Oh yes of course I completely agree. But I feel there is a danger in completely ignoring social sanctions simply because they are more subtle.

donegalfella wrote: »

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She is talking about an American size 6 (UK size 10). I am tall but a size 14/16 and there are many, many shops that I just don't bother going into because I know I won't fit into any of their clothes (Zara is one..!)

Yes but you see I do that and more and still have to cross a lot of clothes shops off my list. It can be quite depressing sometimes.

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I don't know - look at all the women-bashing threads in AH complaining that Irish women don't look after themselves. And look at how the mainstream media panders to male tastes: open up Metro-Herald (or whatever it's calling itself these days!) and count the female models used to promote everything from the mundane (a new product) to the totally inappropriate (Daffodil Day).

donegalfella wrote: »

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Hmm, it seems that their diet has been heavily influenced by the US - like so many other countries - because the traditional Saudi diet is very healthy. You would be surprised how active Saudi women are as most are quite wealthy and belong to private clubs & gyms. But yes, the less well off probably don't enjoy such benefits.

rovert

The answer: moaning 2.0

Jules

rovert if you have nothing of interest to add to the conversation, don't post at all.