What IS Feminism? MOD WARNING POST 39

Wibbs · 17-01-2010 12:24pm

is not a cogent post. If you cant tell the difference dont post in this forum. Dont drag this thread off any further. Your further argumentative and off topic posts have been deleted.

Jules · 17-01-2010 12:52pm

rovert banned for 3 days Trolling a post followed by on on thread argument further derailing the thread and adding nothing to the topic.

Permabear · 17-01-2010 3:09pm

This post has been deleted.

Macha · 17-01-2010 6:17pm

Hang on - firstly, some of these people are barely 18. And to assume that everyone is capable of entirely objective, independent thought is to ignore the realities of human nature and peer pressure. We simply are not this homo economicus that many would want us to think we are. We have faults and biases and insecurities and

If wearing tiny dresses in the freezing cold and teetering around in 4-inch platform shoes is what they really want to do, more power to them. But if they're just doing it because they feel pressured to or because our society rewards them for it, well that's another matter. Then, we're not talking about freedom, we're talking about the social constraints of freedom. And there's nothing puritan about it - I could be referring to any behaviour.

I really don't think so, donegalfella. What about when those sort of ratios were around in the 20th century? I don't think the roles were reversed.

The research is one that I have referred to a few times. I will have to root it out again. I understand the desire to want to revert to anecdotal evidence but I'll take empirical research over personal experience every time. Can you provide some data that it's women that are more likely to get ahead and men more likely to end up in low-paid jobs.

You're missing the point again about the general trend here. You can look at every small part of the trend and argue it doesn't say much but when you take it as a whole, there is a trend. I can give you a hundred more examples of the infantilisation of women in our society. Are you saying that you don't think that the trend exists?

Well, yeah it's changing a bit but my god it's slow! Why do so many young men commit suicide? Why is it difficult for our judiciary to consider a female as a sexual offender? It's all part of the same thing.

Yes but you're missing her point. Why should these women have to shop around? Why are women over size 10 considered 'plus-size'?

Personally, I think it's a lot to do with the Western diet and our urban environment. We use our cars more than anyone else in the world and spend a ridiculous amount of time commuting. The urban landscape does not encourage walking or public transport, instead everyone is pushed into the car. You'd be surprised how fit you get just walking around the Metro in Paris!

It's also to do with the value placed on food. In Ireland, it seems to be a race to the bottom on the price of food. We spend around 10% of our disposable income on food. The Spanish and the French both around 15% of theirs on food. These things are all connected.

Permabear · 18-01-2010 12:26am

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18-01-2010 4:28am

A gorgeous woman in a bikini is not "subject to the will of men" - quite the opposite, in fact. You may as well say that a male millionaire surgeon-slash-fireman is subject to the will of women because he had to work so hard and run so many risks to become so attractive to women.

That's pretty irrelevant though, after all if your employer gave you a 20% pay cut and said "there are people in coal mines making €20 a week" I doubt you'd say "fair enough so."

Nevyn · 18-01-2010 8:14am

donegalfella have you read Female Chauvinist Pigs: Women and the Rise of Raunch Culture by Ariel Levy?

My grandmother was incredibly derisive of the sexual liberation movement and saw it and the pill as just freeing up more women for men to have sex with. While it's not a popular point of view it has some merit.

metrovelvet · 18-01-2010 9:43am

Plus sizes start at 16 I believe. To say 10, 12, and 14 is plus size is inaccurate.

I think a more interesting question is why we all want to shrink ourselves and to look at what makes a body type fashionable and what that tells us.

If you look through the decades the aspiring female figure has changed, matriarchal, to boyish, to athletic, to pubescent to womenly.

So why now, do we all want to shrink?

Permabear · 18-01-2010 12:47pm

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18-01-2010 1:43pm

I'm becoming more and more of a feminist as I get older. I was lucky enough to be brought up in a family where girls were as respected as boys and a school where girls were encouraged to aim high and consider careers in law, engineering and other male dominated areas. Beyond the general physical hassle (periods etc) of being a woman, I never considered that I could be at a serious disadvantage, I never felt like I'd got the short straw being born a girl. Now I'm starting to feel it big time. Now I understand why my mother is such a feminist. I've recently attended a number of careers fairs and group interviews and am absolutely sick of being treated like a silly little girl while the employers fawn over the guys in the group. I am better qualified and have better experience than most of my male classmates, yet I'm not taken seriously. A few of them have suggested I change my look, as in wear no make-up at all, scrape my hair back and wear glasses instead of contacts. Why the hell should I? I'm no Elle Woods. I don't even wear heels ever. I don't see why I have to look like a hard faced career b*tch when men can dress up and look their best and be taken seriously. I can't believe this is still in issue in England in 2010.

Nevyn · 18-01-2010 2:02pm

College in america seems to be used by a lot of young people as a chance to act out and do as they please ( if they have the where withal that is) a little like rumspringa for amish teens.

But and very much so in this country while the pill is available we don't educate young people about sexuality and their own sexuality and having the confidence to consent or not and how to respect themselves and others.

Permabear · 18-01-2010 2:29pm

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Nevyn · 18-01-2010 7:07pm

I said sexuality not sex, the facts and mechanics of sex are more known about but not about sexuality and consent, there are still plenty of young people who don't know who the fertility cycle of a female works or the pill or about sexual consent or sti.

vicecreamsundae · 04-02-2010 5:24am

I haven't read the entire thread, but just on the matter of the increasing sexualisation of women I'd like to comment.

Women, and particularly young women are being hugely sexualised and it's evident everywhere. But saying things like "nobody MAKES women were tiny dresses and get brazilians etc" is missing the point.

When feminists talk about the sexualisation of women, we're not complaining that girls are being too slutty these days, and giving all the milk away for free.
Feminism is all for women's choices. When women have access to more choices, the whole world benefits -be they choices about education, reproductive rights, employment opportunities. If women want to have lots of casual sex, fine, sex is good, that's sexuality -not sexualisation.

The way our society promotes one very conventional idea of sexy -skinny, tanned, perfect features, fake hair, fake nails -and that to be sexy you need to conform to this narrow, unnatural idea of sexiness -that's sexualisation. From the age little girls start playing with Bratz dolls, they are shown this one interpretation of sexy and expected to emulate. Through glamour magazines and shows like the OC and media frenzy over people like Paris Hilton and Megan Fox, girls are taught to place a huge emphasis on looking hot.
It's all about how they look, how they appease hetero guys, rather than pleasing themselves. When they're younger it's about looking hot but "being good". Make all the boys want you, and then make them wait. Stay pure.
For older girls it's things like straight girls kissing straight girls to turn on the male audience rather than each other. It's replacing sexuality, with sexiness. And the way our culture VALUES that sexiness -the way that overt, porn-y sexiness is depicted as the norm, and if you're a young woman who doesn't think pole dancing classes are fun and hot and empowering, or you don't want to wax your bush, or bring your boyfriend to a stripclub there's something wrong and uptight and backwards about you.
That's sexualisation.

What IS Feminism? *MOD WARNING POST 39*

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What IS Feminism? MOD WARNING POST 39