you DO believe in God.

Sam Vimes

hiorta wrote: »

However, there has to be a Cause

Why?

And if there has to be a cause what caused the cause?

missusblagh

pH wrote: »

Hmmm, I know many people who never really decided for themselves to believe in God, they were indoctrinated as kids and then keep going because it's what society and everyone else does, they just want to fit in. Turns out, they didn't really think about it.

I'm not disagreeing with this?

missusblagh

kev9100 wrote: »

Well, look at your thread title for a start. "You DO believe in God". What a ludicrous statement. Who gave you the right to tell me what to think? I sure as hell didnt.

You're not reading my posts obviously?
I said - I'm new to boards.ie. I chose the title, just as a kind of a heading. It was never really meant as an order to anyone.

But maybe you won't read this either so am I wasting my time?

Galvasean

Fine!

Question posed in the OP wrote:

How many atheists are really left?

Loads.
[/thread]

Sam Vimes

missusblagh wrote: »

Just want to point out - I really never said anything , other than, I believe there are posers out there, so it's funny how angry people got. It seems, these people (not all) can't take any criticism to atheist people in general?

Oh we can take criticism as long as it's well thought out and logical but this thread does not fall into that category and still doesn't since you've started with the ad hominems. Your thread title does not match what you've been saying since then and what more do you want than religion causes wars and there's no evidence for it as reasons not to believe?

Do you demand that someone have a deeply thought out reason for why they don't believe in leprechauns?

The Mad Hatter

missusblagh wrote: »

I never said, 'don't be atheist'

I never said ' I disagree with atheism'

I'm really just saying 'there are posers'

I'm new to boards.ie, choosing the title 'you DO believe in God' , as just a kind of a title... obviously things are taken more literally?

But you did say that, and frankly that's asking for trouble on an atheism forum, whether it was the content of the posts or not.

Now for the more important question: if there are posers (and I imagine there are far fewer than you seem to think), why should anyone care?

Ickle Magoo

If you are going to jump up and down and demand logical explanation from others, why can't they do the same of you?

Atheist people? Are you reading your posts before hitting submit? :pac:

kev9100

missusblagh wrote: »

You're not reading my posts obviously?
I said - I'm new to boards.ie. I chose the title, just as a kind of a heading. It was never really meant as an order to anyone.

But maybe you won't read this either so am I wasting my time?

You may be new to boards but its common courtesy that you dont order people what to think.

[/thread]

fatmammycat

Perhaps, missusblagh, the miscomprehension lies with the fact that you don't seem to be able to expain yourself very well and not that people can't fathom your posts. Your opening lines and post title were argumentative and ill thought out, so people reacted accordingly.
So you know some posers, so what? What has that got to do with anything? Most people know people who haven't thought a guiding life principal through to completion. I know a number of la carte Catholics and cherry picking Christians, but do I go to a Catholic or Christian forums and say 'You're all really atheists! Na na ni nah nah, I know this coz I know some people who don't know what they're talking about'?
No, that would be stupid and they would-rightly- think I was a trolling idiot.

missusblagh

Ok, I think this needs to be concluded.
Basically, I amn't saying anything offensive so I don't see why people would be offended.

In saying 'you DO believe in God', I mean, to those you do. Not to you kevin.

I think either people are jumping to conclusions and branding what I'm saying as stupid, or I've been unclear in my description of what I was trying to say.

Either way, my point was not properly made.
Good day.
(thank you to those who understood me)

fatmammycat

Sigh, I bow to the speedier typers. And agree.

Dades

missusblagh wrote: »

You're not reading my posts obviously?
I said - I'm new to boards.ie. I chose the title, just as a kind of a heading. It was never really meant as an order to anyone.

You have to understand - you would not have been the first poster to come on here and proceed to tell everyone they were wrong, weren't atheists etc etc... and those posters have always received a robust welcome. Whether you intended it or not your original post came across that way, hence the reception.

So assuming that's not what you intended, then yes, there are undoubtedly some people (teenagers mostly?) who might claim to be atheists without really knowing what it means, just because they think it sounds cool. But those few are nothing compared to the numbers that call themselves religious who know nothing of their religion other than what they can remember from their kids illustrated bible and the mumbled prayers they hear at Christmas mass and the odd funeral.

missusblagh wrote: »

That's agnostic you're referring to. They have more of an indifference, to be an atheist, it's more defined. It's an absolute certainty that there is no God.

Unfortunately you've kinda shot yourself in the foot here - as you've demonstrated that you don't actually understand atheism yourself.

There is no certainty involved at all - it is merely a belief - or lack thereof. So before continuing, see this thread here, and also this one for clarification.

And yes, there will be a test.

missusblagh

Dades wrote: »

There is no certainty involved at all - it is merely a belief - or lack thereof.

Belief? Certainty? What's the difference?
If someone really believes in it - they're certain of it, whether they're right or wrong, no?

K, well, wow, I wasn't trying to be argumentative. Just raising a debate?
In future, I'll get a better feel as to how things shoud be phrased here, and be clearer.

People are really harsh here tho

Ickle Magoo

Well, belief is the way you think it is and certainty is being able to prove it...

Petrovia

missusblagh wrote: »

That's agnostic you're referring to. They have more of an indifference, to be an atheist, it's more defined. It's an absolute certainty that there is no God.

I wrote a huge reply to that, but luckily I checked before I posted and I'm just going to say 'what Dades said'.

Most people I know are atheist too, as far as I'm aware. Most of them never waste a thought on the whole idea! This does not make them illegitimate atheists. They are not 'posers' even if they have uninformed views about religion/s, false views about religion/s etc. You can't 'fake' atheism, unless you actually believe in god/s yet say that you don't. Not having any logical reasons for not believing in god/s does not make you a poser. (Too many negatives in that sentence, I know). It might make you a poor debater on the subject, but never a fake atheist.

(My sincere apologies to all those who want this thread to die.)

slipss

missusblagh wrote: »

Belief? Certainty? What's the difference?
If someone really believes in it - they're certain of it, whether they're right or wrong, no?

Picture that game where a ball is placed under a cup and the cups are shuffled around. "I believe the ball is under the cup on the left" That doesn't mean you are certain the ball is under that cup. Out of curiosity is English your first language?

KombuchaMshroom

Found this on StumbleUpon:

A says to B: "Deep down you really do believe in God"
B's response: "Deep down, your realise when you get ill, it's better to visit a hospital then pray"

The Mad Hatter

missusblagh wrote: »

People are really harsh here tho

Not most of the time but, in fairness, we were provoked.

Dades

missusblagh wrote: »

Belief? Certainty? What's the difference?
If someone really believes in it - they're certain of it, whether they're right or wrong, no?

No! The point is you cannot disprove something like "God" (i.e. invisible, intangible etc) so "certainty" is not a logical option.

missusblagh wrote: »

K, well, wow, I wasn't trying to be argumentative. Just raising a debate?
In future, I'll get a better feel as to how things shoud be phrased here, and be clearer.

People are really harsh here tho

Reactionary, rather than harsh. They thought they were being poked with a religious stick, you understand.

Everyone's ready to move on, I'm sure.

Petrovia

slipss wrote: »

Out of curiosity is English your first language?

Shouldn't be an excuse - it's my 5th :cool:

[/bragging]

Anyway, the difference between belief and certainty should be clear cut in most languages of the world.*

*Source: myself. I study linguistics.

fatmammycat

5 languages?! * is impressed*

loconnor

Have these "posers" that are being spoken of gone through puberty yet? Why would a person even come to an atheist board and post a question as ignorant as what was first mentioned? Is there a religious board I can ask the bible thumpers how many times they go to church, do they listen to the sermon, or is it going through the motions JUST IN CASE? Excuse me I usually don't respond to such things, but COME ON!

robindch

missusblagh wrote: »

I don't see why people would be offended.

You might understand why people are cheesed off if you read again that bit of your original post where you implied that people didn't think that one deity or another existed simply because they wanted to be thought of as "cool, intellectual or rebellious".

missusblagh wrote: »

I think either people are jumping to conclusions and branding what I'm saying as stupid, or I've been unclear in my description of what I was trying to say.

You have been quite clear in what you said -- namely, that atheists determine their reality based upon political concerns.

The rather strange notion that reality is a popularity contest is far more common amongst religious people, for whom this forms the basis of their religion's popularity. It's explicitly rejected by every atheist I'm aware of.

If you'd asked a question with fewer faulty presumptions, you might have had a slightly less bumpy ride.

robindch

Petrovia wrote: »

Shouldn't be an excuse - it's my 5th

Классно!

Petrovia wrote: »

Anyway, the difference between belief and certainty should be clear cut in most languages of the world.

In general discourse, yes, I believe that's true. But religious discourse has, in all languages I'm aware of, evolved its own obscurantist terminology which makes it difficult or impossible to parse and understand issues with any degree of accuracy.

The ambiguity that christianity (I believe) introduced by abstracting the concept of the deity is one of its few genuinely original contributions.

Turtwig

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Why?

And if there has to be a cause what caused the cause?

Obviously God doesn't need a cause because he's not contingent on anyone or anything and is thus eternal.
Or some sh1t to that extent.

RossCarbery

Thank God I'm an athiest.

Petrovia

fatmammycat wrote:

5 languages?! * is impressed*

Haha, yeah. Sounds more impressive than it is though. They're all closely related!

robindch wrote: »

Классно!

Thanks!

(Note: I don't actually speak Russian :pac:)

In general discourse, yes, I believe that's true. But religious discourse has, in all languages I'm aware of, evolved its own obscurantist terminology which makes it difficult or impossible to parse and understand issues with any degree of accuracy.

Oh that could well be, I have to admit that I don't know an awful lot about specifically religious discourse in different languages (especially not wildly different languages)! I was thinking more about general concepts which I thought would apply here. Maybe they don't though.

(I suppose it's all academic anyway if the OP turns out to be a native speaker of English in the end!)

mardybumbum

missusblagh wrote: »

How many people are REALLY atheist?

Let's be honest - it's in vogue. People think it's cool, intellectual or rebellious to be atheist. Deep down though, a lot of these people secretly say a prayer here or there.

A lot of people who genuinely have abandoned religious belief find themselves at the end of life afraid of death, and quickly convert.

Some in their conscious mind think 'God is not real' , but subconsciously, some beliefs remain. Whether it's a result of their upbringing, or a human connection to something spiritual I don't know.

How many atheists are really left?

I would class myself as an athiest.
Of course I dont know that God doesn't exist, but the chances of it are very slim in my opinion.
So technically speaking, I am agnostic, but it's not a term I use as I don't want to be thought of as sitting on the fence.
Perhaps, de facto athiest is a much more appropriate title.

You are certainly right when you mention that athiesm is "in vogue". All we have to do is examine the record book sales of Dawkins, Hitchen's, Harris and the like.
And many people also derive a relationship between non-belief and intelligence as you point out. I can only come to the same conclusion myself from the limited group of people that I know personally.

You bring up a very interesting point when you mention the subconscious. The brain is an extremely complicated machine capable of deceiving us in many ways.
It is not always the cool, calculated, highway of information that we often like to think it is.
I'd like to share an experience I had as a young child where I witnessed an "apparition" in my own bedroom.
My parents had gone out for a meal, and had hired a babysitter for the night.
As I was in and out of sleep, I seen my dads face appear in the plug socket next to my bed, and he was talking to me. For me, It was as real as could be.
I ran downstairs to the babysitter and she just told me to go back to bed, she was too busy watching the television to care.
Needless to say, I didnt go back to bed and I pushed my bed to the other side of the room so that it would cover the socket.
I was scared shi'iteless.

Now the face that I seen could have easily been that of the Virgin Mary or Jesus and I may be posting more regularly on a different forum.
It was because of this experience that I am slow to label visionaries as crazy or liars.
Some of them genuinely do witness "apparitions".

I really do believe that it is the arrangement of neurons in our brain that is the major factor in determining whether we will believe in superstition or not.
The developing brains of children are particularly vulnerable to the indoctrination process, and it is this fact that the church takes advantage of.

I'm one of the lucky ones I guess.

Flamed Diving

Check out this hipster, fresh on the scene of latest "must-have" accessory - Atheism!

TheCosmicFrog

[topd]

I'm an Atheist because I'm awesome.

But missusblagh, you are such an ignorant individual it makes me all warm and gooey inside.