you DO believe in God.

Dr. Loon

Why would you bother posing as an atheist though? In what way is it cool or hip? Really, isnt it easier to lead a religious life than that of an atheist? Considering all the hassle alot of atheists have to go through, especially if it's only a recent realisation. People have been disowned by their parents for becoming atheist. I'm not sure people do it just to be cool!

Dave!

tbh I kinda understand the OP to some extent... They're just really badly communicating what they're getting at.

I think they're saying that some people are starting to shake off their religious upbringing and would consider themselves atheists, but when pressed might find it difficult to articulate why. If you're on forums regularly and watching debates and interviews, and reading books on the subject, then you'll be pretty well versed in the standard arguments for/against theism. But most people probably don't bother with that sh*t, and so while their gut will tell them that it's all nonsense, they haven't got an intellectual basis for their beliefs or lackthereof and can't back it up.

If I'm not mistaken, that group is one of the targets Richard Dawkins mentions in The God Delusion -- people who think there's something awry, but want to flesh out their disbelief somewhat, so that they can intelligently defend their ideas.

I know I was like that when I was about 16 and starting to ask questions. But then I'd probably see/hear even a retarded argument made by a theist and then I'd be stumped. It's only really when you engage with the subject and study it superficially at least that you can properly refute the arguments. At this point I've heard pretty much all of the arguments and they're not convicing.


At least, that's what I took from the OP's attempts to articulate themselves :pac:

Zombrex

missusblagh wrote: »

How many people are REALLY atheist?

Let's be honest - it's in vogue. People think it's cool, intellectual or rebellious to be atheist. Deep down though, a lot of these people secretly say a prayer here or there.

If they secretly pray here or there how do you know they do?

missusblagh wrote: »

A lot of people who genuinely have abandoned religious belief find themselves at the end of life afraid of death, and quickly convert.

How many people do you know who have done this?

missusblagh wrote: »

How many atheists are really left?

Er, 12?

TheCosmicFrog

Haha, rough estimation

iUseVi

It's obviously 42. Sheesh.

biko

These are people known to be atheists/non-theists
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nontheists
I couldn't copy/paste the list here because it's too big.

Albert Einstein really liked the idea of Jesus but I think this quote best expresses Einsteins view on god: ‘The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this.’

Or Gandhis famous quote: I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.
I definitely agree with these two above.

If Jesus existed he seems to have been a pretty cool guy, too bad the pope, priests and christian fundamentalists have destroyed the original intentions of Jesus for their own petty power struggles.
Even if I believed in god I would still hate the church.

Petrovia

Dave! wrote: »

I think they're saying that some people are starting to shake off their religious upbringing and would consider themselves atheists, but when pressed might find it difficult to articulate why. If you're on forums regularly and watching debates and interviews, and reading books on the subject, then you'll be pretty well versed in the standard arguments for/against theism. But most people probably don't bother with that sh*t, and so while their gut will tell them that it's all nonsense, they haven't got an intellectual basis for their beliefs or lackthereof and can't back it up.

I understand that, but the point is that this doesn't make them posers. They are genuine atheists, albeit of a different kind than the ones you generally find on forums like this one - but still genuine atheists.

Dave!

Petrovia wrote: »

I understand that, but the point is that this doesn't make them posers. They are genuine atheists, albeit of a different kind than the ones you generally find on forums like this one - but still genuine atheists.

I know yeah, but I think maybe the OP was taking it that since they can't back up their atheism with intelligent reasons, that they are in fact just posing or trying to be cool or whatever, when really they might be just going with their gut and haven't spent ages examining all of the arguments and so on.

Maybe I'm just giving the OP too much credit !

aidan24326

missusblagh wrote: »

How many people are REALLY atheist?

Let's be honest - it's in vogue. People think it's cool, intellectual or rebellious to be atheist. Deep down though, a lot of these people secretly say a prayer here or there.

How do you know if they do or not? Have you conducted a survey or something? You're really just making sh1t up aren't you? Publish the results of your study please, we're all eager to read it.

A lot of people who genuinely have abandoned religious belief find themselves at the end of life afraid of death, and quickly convert.

Another assumption you just plucked out of your head. Guess what? I will not be converting at any time, near death or otherwise. So there. Strike me off your list.

Some in their conscious mind think 'God is not real' , but subconsciously, some beliefs remain. Whether it's a result of their upbringing, or a human connection to something spiritual I don't know.

That is probably true, and I take your original point about some people possibly calling themselves atheist because it's been made 'cool' or whatever, since being popularised by the likes of Dawkins and Harris. (though you don't deserve much credit since you didn't formulate your point very well)

But I would guess that such people probably make up a small percentage of atheists, and in a way they're not really atheist at all, they're just going with whatever is in vogue. Being truly atheist, i.e not believing in any made-up gods or nonsensical religions, requires alot more thought than believing does. It's easy to believe, that requires no more than you park your brain outside and come on in.

Petrovia

Dave! wrote: »

I know yeah, but I think maybe the OP was taking it that since they can't back up their atheism with intelligent reasons, that they are in fact just posing or trying to be cool or whatever, when really they might be just going with their gut and haven't spent ages examining all of the arguments and so on.

Maybe I'm just giving the OP too much credit !

Hmm, ok, I think I see what you mean now! Bit of a stretch to argue that though (from the OP, not you), and I suppose it just goes back to my original point that I made on this thread ('where's the evidence [for that]?').

aidan24326 wrote:

Being truly atheist, i.e not believing in any made-up gods or nonsensical religions, requires alot more thought than believing does. It's easy to believe, that requires no more than you park your brain outside and come on in.

That's not actually true. Being truly atheist doesn't inherently require any thinking. What if you grew up atheist, in a completely unreligious environment, so unreligious that you don't even know the notion of god/s? You're still a true atheist even though you have probably never spent a thought on the idea. Granted, you wouldn't call yourself an atheist, but you'd still be one.

Bduffman

missusblagh wrote: »

I just think, living in a world surrounded by religion, and considering that it seems to be a fundamental part of being human (except for apparantly an Amazonian tribe), that it's something that you WOULD have a good reason, a reason strong enough to overpower all of that, you get me?

Since when is believing in god the default mode? Coming from a position of needing reasonable evidence before 'believing' in something should be the starting point - if someone wants to put forward a theory about the existence of a deity - let them make their case.

missusblagh wrote: »

That's agnostic you're referring to. They have more of an indifference, to be an atheist, it's more defined. It's an absolute certainty that there is no God.

So according to you, indifference is what separates an agnostic from an atheist? You really haven't a clue have you?

Bduffman

Dades wrote: »

So assuming that's not what you intended, then yes, there are undoubtedly some people (teenagers mostly?) who might claim to be atheists without really knowing what it means, just because they think it sounds cool. But those few are nothing compared to the numbers that call themselves religious who know nothing of their religion other than what they can remember from their kids illustrated bible and the mumbled prayers they hear at Christmas mass and the odd funeral.

This brings to mind a 'roman catholic' work colleague who thought that the eucharist was only meant to be symbolic & that transubstantiantion doesn't really happen. I wonder how many more there are like him.

Dr Kamikazi

Magnus wrote: »

Even if I believed in god I would still hate the church.

You said it.
A lot of people seem to think that religion=church
That would be like saying sheep=butcher
The church was devised to control people, keep them down and feed them just a smidgeon of spirituality and a giant dose of control over every aspect of their daily lives right down to their sex life and private thoughts.
Why the human race was ever idiotic enough to fall for this scam by a bunch of vile, murdering and ignorant conmen is so beyond me I cannot even begin to comprehend.
My best guess is that sheep need a shepherd and deep down believe that he isn't looking after them only for them to end up on the meat counter of their local supermarket. Maybe sheep are the ultimate optimists or just very, very dumb.
I have my ideas when it comes to religion vs. atheism (you may both be wrong), but to be spiritual you need the church like a cow needs McDonalds.
The otters where spot on though.

The Mad Hatter

Dr Kamikazi wrote: »

The church was devised to control people, keep them down and feed them just a smidgeon of spirituality and a giant dose of control over every aspect of their daily lives right down to their sex life and private thoughts.

How is that any different from religion? As far as I can tell, this is the purpose of most organised religions.

Sam Vimes

Dr Kamikazi wrote: »

I have my ideas when it comes to religion vs. atheism (you may both be wrong)

Is your definition of an atheist "someone who believes there is no god"?

what if I showed you this thread, that shows that the vast majority of people describe their position as:

6. Very low probability [that god exists], but short of zero. De facto atheist. 'I cannot know for certain but I think God is very improbable, and I live my life on the assumption that he is not there.'

Genghiz Cohen

Well if OP says I'm a Thiest, that's good enough for me!
Praise Xenu!

dvpower

missusblagh wrote: »

Ok, I see a lot of these posts are quite mocking and condescending.

You f**king started it.

Flamed Diving

Even if the Abrahamic God did exist, and this was proven to me and I accepted it. I would still not follow him. Call me intolerant, but I have no time for child murderers.

Zombrex

dvpower wrote: »

You f**king started it.

Now that was mocking and condescending

Turtwig

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Even if the Abrahamic God did exist, and this was proven to me and I accepted it. I would still not follow him. Call me intolerant, but I have no time for child murderers.

Which is why God usually got others to carry out His dirty work.

Flamed Diving

Malty_T wrote: »

Which is why God usually got others to carry out His dirty work.

Except those poor first-born sons of Egypt..., and yeah, even if you discount the work where he got his hands dirty, he is still guilty of genocide. Bad, bad god...

Sam Vimes

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Even if the Abrahamic God did exist, and this was proven to me and I accepted it. I would still not follow him. Call me intolerant, but I have no time for child murderers.

The thing is that if their god did exist then any opinion you have about the morality or lack thereof of child murdering is irrelevant. If god says murdering children is moral then it's moral and if you disagree you're automatically wrong. Not only that but if you disagree and think that murdering children is wrong regardless of who does it or orders it to be done then you are falling short of his child murdering standard and you will be punished eternally for it

We should just be thankful that this maniacal despot almost certainly doesn't exist

Turtwig

Sam Vimes wrote: »

The thing is that if their god did exist then any opinion you have about the morality or lack thereof of child murdering is irrelevant. If god says murdering children is moral then it's moral and if you disagree you're automatically wrong. Not only that but if you disagree and think that murdering children is wrong regardless of who does it or orders it to be done then you are falling short of his child murdering standard and you will be punished eternally for it

We should just be thankful that this maniacal despot almost certainly doesn't exist

But clearly Sam, the Egyptians foul mistreatment of the Israelites was justification enough for God's act. Lest it not be forgotten that one of the beautiful arguments about hell is that many people who defy God's will face worse punishment if they are not punished on this earth.

Dr Kamikazi

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

How is that any different from religion? As far as I can tell, this is the purpose of most organised religions.

Organised Religion being the keyword here.
As soon as anything spiritual gets organised it is organised by humans.
That means that the original idea is the twisted and perverted to people's own means and ends. This will apply to any idea. Democracy, Communism, Atheism and many other isms.
People will abuse any idea towards one end and that is to gather as many followers as possible, then control, domineer and exploit them.
As soon as you are part of any group of people promoting an idea, you are had.
Sure, it will always start out with big ideals and great ideas (Communism and even Flower Power), but after the first idealistic phase the opportunists sneak in.
Some ideas are started by opportunists in the first place (Scientology, by that self confessed fraud Hubbard) with the aim of exploiting others.
The point is that an idea that is supported by the masses is automatically nothing more than a device to control people, keep them down and extract their money.
And that any counter idea, as soon as it gathers sufficient support, will end up the same way.
Ideas cannot yet overcome the general greed, stupidity and laziness of the human race.
We are not evolved enough for that, in evolutionary terms it was 5 minutes ago where you'd hit anyone over the head that had more food than you, or more women, or more followers, unless of course they hit you over the head first.
As civilised cavemen the vast majority cannot grasp any idea without reverting back to hitting anyone over the head who does not agree with them.
This will take another 200000 years, maybe 500000.
That doesn't mean that there isn't greatness out there, just that the vast majority isn't ready for it.

And just another thing:
Many people say "How can God let all these terrible things happen."
Too many people blame the horrible things we do to each other on "God".
That doesn't mean they are devout believers.
It just means that they are too lazy and stupid to accept responsibility for their or their fellow human's actions, or the fact that some people just like to build their houses in floodplains or beside a volcanoe.
God (or not) doesn't roam the earth to kill anyone.
It's just the way the universe works. It's not always meant to be fun and safe.
The Galaxy cannot stop because someone is coming to harm.
You cannot blame God, atheist or not.
Or as a famous philosopher said "Sometimes stuff just happens, what the hell..."

toiletduck

Heh, thread reminds me of this



Yeah I'm just in it to be cool and get all the atheist chicks. Hasn't worked yet

Ickle Magoo

toiletduck wrote: »

Yeah I'm just in it to be cool and get all the atheist chicks. Hasn't worked yet

Maybe if you just called yourself "duck"?

:P:pac:

liamw

Hey OP, I declared myself an atheist about 3 years ago. It was risky but I made the right choice, becuase low and behold a few months down the line atheism was indeed in fashion. I find myself to be generally ahead of the curve on these things. I chose Hollister over A&F way before society caught up.

Here's a bit of advice. I know people are saying that Christianity is coming back into fashion this year, what with all the recent miracles and that, but trust me when I say that Buddhism is the right choice. I'm going to switch in about 3 months, but you make the call. Just don't leave it too late. Regards.

Petrovia

toiletduck wrote: »

Yeah I'm just in it to be cool and get all the atheist chicks. Hasn't worked yet

I hate to break it to you but... you're just too strident.

:pac:

Turtwig

toiletduck wrote: »

Yeah I'm just in it to be cool and get all the atheist chicks. Hasn't worked yet

It's not about being cool, you gotta be rational.
According to Dan Dennett .

The Mad Hatter

Dr Kamikazi wrote: »

Organised Religion being the keyword here.

That's why I said it.

As soon as anything spiritual gets organised it is organised by humans.

Can't disagree with that, but...

That means that the original idea is the twisted and perverted to people's own means and ends.

I'm fairly certain that the organisation of religion, and from that the organisation of people, is the original idea.