Opposition parties . . All hot air . .

Drumpot

FF are getting it both barrels again for the way they handled (mishandled) the recent weather trouble . .

Personally, I dont see what FG or Labour would of had prepared for this kind of Winter . .

That aside, there was alot of criticism (rightly) towards the government for not clarifying the whole legal issue of people cleaning their footpaths of snow (and whether or not they could be sued if people had accidents).

What I cannot understand for the life of me is why FG or Labour didnt bother their ass finding out themselves and getting one up on FF. . Perfect opportunity . .

Instead they waste everbodys time on PR stunts with cardboard cutouts of Dempsey . .

I am a floating voter and would not have an awful lot of confidence in FF . . But I would have even less confidence in parties that spend most of their times just looking to just point-score at a time when the country needs all the help it can get .

Some might say thats the opposition partys job . . These are unprecedented times (or so we keep getting told) . . Surely they can pointscore while doing something remotely constructive for the rest of us . .

Personally I believe there is huge potential for a national party that works for the people, with the peoples interest at heart . . Problem is that there is no national will for such a party to succeed .

doc_17

Of course they are, But they have no power to do anything else. I have no great belief that they are more noble that the fianna fail gangsters and the idiotic greens but surely its time to find out. Thats why we have elections. If they fail, get them out.

Liam Byrne

There have been numerous occasions where the opposition have been found badly wanting, - Ahern's finances, the banks, TD's pay and expenses, the banking inquiry, NAMA - and the weather was just the most recent.

While - to me - it's a no-brainer to ensure that FF don't get back in, it's certainly a worry that the opposition has been so weak.

They can't possibly be worse, but whether they'll be good enough for what we need is a whole other question.

Voting in "the best of a bad lot" is a horribly resigned scenario.

imme

Drumpot wrote: »

Instead they waste everbodys time on PR stunts with cardboard cutouts of Dempsey . .

I am a floating voter and would not have an awful lot of confidence in FF . . But I would have even less confidence in parties that spend most of their times just looking to just point-score at a time when the country needs all the help it can get .

Personally I believe there is huge potential for a national party that works for the people, with the peoples interest at heart . . Problem is that there is no national will for such a party to succeed .

Dear Floating Voter,
I'm unsure how much of the population could still have confidence in FF.
I believe Fine Gael were representing the absence of Noel Dempsey by a cut-out, and the inaction of John Gormley by a cut-out, as cut-outs aren't very effective in solving problems (I'm sure some survey will testify to the ineffectiveness of card board cut-outs in handling problems:rolleyes:).
I'm unsure how Fine Gael wasted everybody's time by engaging in this 'stunt'. Maybe you can tell me.

If you're looking for a national party that has everybody's interest at heart I'm sure FF, FG, Labour, SF would say that's their role. You could also look at Amhrán Nua.:D

Drumpot

imme wrote: »

Dear Floating Voter,
I'm unsure how much of the population could still have confidence in FF.
I believe Fine Gael were representing the absence of Noel Dempsey by a cut-out, and the inaction of John Gormley by a cut-out, as cut-outs aren't very effective in solving problems (I'm sure some survey will testify to the ineffectiveness of card board cut-outs in handling problems:rolleyes:).
I'm unsure how Fine Gael wasted everybody's time by engaging in this 'stunt'. Maybe you can tell me.

If you're looking for a national party that has everybody's interest at heart I'm sure FF, FG, Labour, SF would say that's their role. You could also look at Amhrán Nua.:D

So you don't think that one of the "talented" opposition partys could of put some peoples mind at ease by finding out the legal ramifications of clearing the snow on front of peoples houses . . . By actually taking the initiative to actually do something for the public (that they could physically do) !!

Instead they were way more "productive" in pointing out (with cardboard cutouts!) what Pat Kenny does better then any of them ! ! ! Please . . .

What's even sadder is that they simply have no credibility even when they do have opportunities to catch out FF . .My dogs could attack FF over the last 2 years with more effect then the opposition partys. . Its as if FF have been the pinata , hanging in an open clear room and the opposition party had an opportunity to pin the tail on them with no blindfold and yet they still missed . . .

If you are wondering why some people still have "confidence" (use this term wisely) in FF, its basically because they have no confidence in the alternative . . Some of the opposition are actual living, breathing cardboard cutouts . . Better the devil you know, so to speak . .

imme

Drumpot wrote: »

So you don't think that one of the "talented" opposition partys could of put some peoples mind at ease by finding out the legal ramifications of clearing the snow on front of peoples houses . . . By actually taking the initiative to actually do something for the public (that they could physically do) !!

Instead they were way more "productive" in pointing out (with cardboard cutouts!) what Pat Kenny does better then any of them ! ! ! Please . . .

What's even sadder is that they simply have no credibility even when they do have opportunities to catch out FF . .My dogs could attack FF over the last 2 years with more effect then the opposition partys. . Its as if FF have been the pinata , hanging in an open clear room and the opposition party had an opportunity to pin the tail on them with no blindfold and yet they still missed . . .

If you are wondering why some people still have "confidence" (use this term wisely) in FF, its basically because they have no confidence in the alternative . . Some of the opposition are actual living, breathing cardboard cutouts . . Better the devil you know, so to speak . .

FF-led govt has a majority in the Oireachtas. Their poll ratings are not good though. FF were at the risk of being beaten into third place in the last few polls, after FG and Labour. Does this say anything to you as to the position of FF.

The opposition parties could have given their 'opinion' of the position of people clearing the public footpaths, I don't know did they. Their opinion would be their opinion, not legally significant. How do you think this would have increased their standing in the public imagination.

You said you're a floating voter, well you don't sound too floating, you sound quite FF orientated. :cool:
Maybe you're happy with what they've done with the economy, the health system, infrastructure.........

Drumpot

imme wrote: »

FF-led govt has a majority in the Oireachtas. Their poll ratings are not good though. FF were at the risk of being beaten into third place in the last few polls, after FG and Labour. Does this say anything to you as to the position of FF.

The opposition parties could have given their 'opinion' of the position of people clearing the public footpaths, I don't know did they. Their opinion would be their opinion, not legally significant. How do you think this would have increased their standing in the public imagination.

You said you're a floating voter, well you don't sound too floating, you sound quite FF orientated. :cool:
Maybe you're happy with what they've done with the economy, the health system, infrastructure.........

I thought I would get accused of being Pro-FF . .

Its kinda of a "your either with us or against" us attitude . . I dont have any confidence in any of our parties . . By saying that Im pro - FF you just prove my point (that people simply don't believe there is much choice out there). Not only that it shows that people dont have the vision to try to change the way politics is run, in this country . .

I don't believe in mob rule and prefer to ask questions (unpopular ones). . Any numpty can see FF have been a disaster and there are plenty of threads about their disasters on boards.ie alone. . I was hoping to find some open minded intellectuals who could actually objectively discuss the opposition . .

The whole reason the country is in the mess is alot to do with the fact that our voting community aren't concerned with the credentials of who they vote in . . Nor are they concerned with how to fix them up (sure vote in anybody but FF) . . They are simply worried about getting FF out & Blaming somebody when the truth is that its the fault of the voters that we are in this mess . . Who else helped give FF a majority to lead the country ? Accountability is not just lacking in the Dail, the whole country is incapable of taking responsibility for its own actions. .

What was stopping FG or Labour actually doing some research and finding out the legal standing of this query ? Is this information only available to the government ? (hint - rhetorical question ) . .

Liam Byrne

Drumpot wrote: »

So you don't think that one of the "talented" opposition partys could of put some peoples mind at ease by finding out the legal ramifications of clearing the snow on front of peoples houses . . . By actually taking the initiative to actually do something for the public (that they could physically do) !!

All FF bias aside, Drumpot does have a point - up to a point.

But if it were easy enough to find out the legal ramifications, then why didn't FF do it in the first place ?

And secondly, why should the opposition do FF's job for them by suggesting solutions ? If FF want their power, let them earn their keep!

And if they can't (as they've shown) let them get the hell out.

Biggins

Liam Byrne wrote: »

There have been numerous occasions where the opposition have been found badly wanting, - Ahern's finances, the banks, TD's pay and expenses, the banking inquiry, NAMA - and the weather was just the most recent.
While - to me - it's a no-brainer to ensure that FF don't get back in, it's certainly a worry that the opposition has been so weak.
They can't possibly be worse, but whether they'll be good enough for what we need is a whole other question.
Voting in "the best of a bad lot" is a horribly resigned scenario.

Just about sums up the present situation nicely - or un-nicely when we're talking about FF...

Well surmised.

Drumpot

Liam Byrne wrote: »

All FF bias aside, Drumpot does have a point - up to a point.

But if it were easy enough to find out the legal ramifications, then why didn't FF do it in the first place ?

And secondly, why should the opposition do FF's job for them by suggesting solutions ? If FF want their power, let them earn their keep!

And if they can't (as they've shown) let them get the hell out.

So you don't think opposition parties would of gotten credit for actually doing FF's job ? That said, am I correct in saying that the job of the opposition isnt to help the public in anyway, but to focus solely on getting into power by making the government look bad? ? I personally would of taken great heart if FG or Labour had shown a bit of initiative and come out with the answers (afterall they will be the next party running the country) . . But nope, instead we got cardboard cutouts . .


Its funny . . It seems if you attack the opposition parties you are a FF'r . .

I forgot . . People arent used to having objective debates on politics in Ireland . .

imme

I'm not sure what you're trying to say in that last post OP.
You introduced yourself as a floating voter. Then you said I accused you as being an FF voter, it is ok you know. We can get you an antidote (joke).
You are free to vote how you so chose. There are alternative parties, myriad independents to vote for. It's your choice.

You keep going on about the footpath legal issues. Why are you fixated on this issue. There are lawyers on the FG frontbench, Alan Shatter, Charlie Flanagan among others. I'm sure they could have (maybe they did) proffer an opinion as to the legal issues of shoveling show off the public footpath. How would this have enhanced the public opinion of the opposition. It would have been the opinion of an opposition party, not the official position of the govt.

Drumpot

imme wrote: »

I'm not sure what you're trying to say in that last post OP.
You introduced yourself as a floating voter. Then you said I accused you as being an FF voter, it is ok you know. We can get you an antidote (joke).
You are free to vote how you so chose. There are alternative parties, myriad independents to vote for. It's your choice.

You keep going on about the footpath legal issues. Why are you fixated on this issue. There are lawyers on the FG frontbench, Alan Shatter, Charlie Flanagan among others. I'm sure they could have (maybe they did) proffer an opinion as to the legal issues of shoveling show off the public footpath. How would this have enhanced the public opinion of the opposition. It would have been the opinion of an opposition party, not the official position of the govt.

But why cant a legal representitive of the opposition party say publically "legally you cant be sued for xxx" . . Ok its a statement, but a statement of law (why does it have to be an opinion?) . . Of course it should be said by government, but wouldnt that simply show them up even more ? I dont know about you, but I would have more confidence in an opposition party that shows me how much they care for the people of the country (as opposed to one that devotes most of its time to scoring brownie points!). . But thats just the problem. . I talked to somebody in a PR position in politics and my kind of values are not important to partys because most people of this country simply want to hear what they like to hear - Bankers are bad ... FF are bad . . Builders are bad . . Anything that backs up this one dimensional view is enough for their vote ! !

The reason I am getting annoyed with being accused of being pro FF is because its sidestepping the debate. . I wanted a debate on the opposition and of course I had to be accused of being a FF'r . .

I believe that until the electorate changes their attitudes to politics and who they want running their country we will simply get the same shower in different colors into office . .

Why has all the expenses scandal died down ? Why did it take so long in the first place to get a "sacrificial lamb" ? (and even at that O'Donohue didnt have to resign completely). Because they were all putting the gravy on their dinners and none of them want it to become public (look in the UK at the heads rolling) . . The fickleness of the electorate is baffling . . Why arent we demanding more expenses be explored ? ? Because as a nation we dont like to delve too deeply . . We dont want problems sorted from the roots, we want the top of the weed chopped so we can at least see a nice garden for awhile. .

The opposition do deserve a chance to lead the country, but not necessarily the people we have in opposition at the moment . . This is my main point . .

I heard something recently about politics in Scandinavia. They were saying these are the least corrupt politically run countries in the world. . Their politicians are grown with moral beliefs . . So much so that they dont need any laws or restrictions in place to protect their taxpayers from questionable expenses and likewise. .

We have a cultural moral deficiency in this country . . I really believe a country gets the government it deserves and the government mirrors its people . . With that in mind, when people slag off FF, you can see how I find it slightly ironic . .

imme

Drumpot wrote: »

But why cant a legal representitive of the opposition party say publically "legally you cant be sued for xxx" . .

The opposition do deserve a chance to lead the country, but not necessarily the people we have in opposition at the moment . . This is my main point . .

We have a cultural moral deficiency in this country . . I really believe a country gets the government it deserves and the government mirrors its people . . With that in mind, when people slag off FF, you can see how I find it slightly ironic . .

again with the snow:D
the opposition could have offered an opinion of the legal position regarding clearing of public footpaths by the public. It would not have had the legal standing of a govt opinion.
Yes, oppositions sometimes do become governments. If you don't see the next govt coming from the current opposition who do you see it coming from Amhrán Nua, Sinn Féin?????
How is our culture morally deficient?
The citizens of the state are all living through the current economic mess, the citizens didn't get us here though, I think that was the FF led govt's of the last few years.:rolleyes:

View

There seems to be some confusion about who can give a "definitive" answer concerning possible accidents that might occur after paths have been cleared of snow.

At the end of the day, the only people who can give a "definitve" answer to such a question would be the judges in a court (or courts!) after legal counsel have argued their cases. Obviously, any defendant in such a case would ideally be able to point out that they only cleared the path after they heard an opinion that what they were doing was okay from an authorative source (i.e. an official one).

The offical sources in the state are Government sources - usually, legal ones such as the AG etc. The Opposition does not have right of access to these figures as they answer to/deal with the Government parties.

Hence, the opposition parties cannot provide "official advice" as this is a Governmental function.

View

Drumpot wrote: »

I heard something recently about politics in Scandinavia. They were saying these are the least corrupt politically run countries in the world. . Their politicians are grown with moral beliefs . . So much so that they dont need any laws or restrictions in place to protect their taxpayers from questionable expenses and likewise. .

The Scandinavian countries have extensive laws to protect the taxpayers from questionable expenses and other abuses of power. If they didn't they'd be just as bad as anywhere else.

The reason they have these is because people there vote for parties that advocate these policies, hence it would be stupid for politicans to ignore the topic.

By way of contrast, people here don't vote on this basis, therefore our politicans don't prioritise legislation in this area.

nesf

View wrote: »

The Scandinavian countries have extensive laws to protect the taxpayers from questionable expenses and other abuses of power. If they didn't they'd be just as bad as anywhere else.

The reason they have these is because people there vote for parties that advocate these policies, hence it would be stupid for politicans to ignore the topic.

By way of contrast, people here don't vote on this basis, therefore our politicans don't prioritise legislation in this area.

Also bear in mind that Sweden for example has a very different election system. They use a variation of the party list method called an open list. See here for details: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_list

If you compare this to our constituency based Single Transferable Vote system you can get an idea of why Sweden wouldn't fall into the same "local politics" traps with their national politicians.


Nothing would make me happier than a dropping of the constituency system for Dáil elections and a move to a party list, open list system. It would remove all the Jackie Healy Rays of the current mess.

hallelujajordan

My theory is that the opposition genuinely don't want to bring down the government. .

Sure, they will attack individuals like Gormley and Dempsey but when it comes to making a real surge on the government and in trying to force a general election FG & Labour have been found seriously lacking. There have been a number of times over the past year where I have felt that if FG & Labour were to work together they might have more success yet as Gilmore & Kenny demonstrated during the O'Donoghue affair, they seem unable to do this effectively (Rather ominous, considering they may be Taoiseach and Tanaiste at some point in the future !)

I think it is easier for them to throw stones from the opposition benches. . Bask in their popularity increases (which incidentally has nothing to do with them and everything to do with a fall in support for the government parties) and wait for the government to make the hard and unpopular decisions neccessary to bring about any sort of economic recovery.

For instance, can we really imagine that a party that is strongly funded by the unions (labour) would really be ready and willing to bring about the much needed but rather savage public sector and social welfare pay cuts . . Easier to allow FF to do it and then come in when all the hard work is done.

nesf

hallelujajordan wrote: »

My theory is that the opposition genuinely don't want to bring down the government. .

Sure, they will attack individuals like Gormley and Dempsey but when it comes to making a real surge on the government and in trying to force a referendum FG & Labour have been found seriously lacking. There have been a number of times over the past year where I have felt that if FG & Labour were to work together they might have more success yet as Gilmore & Kenny demonstrated during the O'Donoghue affair, they seem unable to do this effectively (Rather ominous, considering they may be Taoiseach and Tanaiste at some point in the future !)

I think it is easier for them to throw stones from the opposition benches. . Bask in their popularity increases (which incidentally has nothing to do with them and everything to do with a fallin support for the government parties) and wait for the government to make the hard and unpopular decisions neccessary to bring about any sort of economic recovery.

For instance, can we really imagine that a party that is strongly funded by the unions (labour) would really be ready and willing to bring about the much needed but rather savage public sector and social welfare pay cuts . . Easier to allow FF to do it and then come in when all the hard work is done.

The thing to remember is that if it was FF in Opposition they'd do the exact same thing. No one wants to be in power during the first half of a recession rather than the second half.

hallelujajordan

nesf wrote: »

The thing to remember is that if it was FF in Opposition they'd do the exact same thing. No one wants to be in power during the first half of a recession rather than the second half.

You are probably right . . I am sure that they would. .

I do think there is a deeper problem with FG/Lab and I'd be concerned about their ability to form a stable coalition even after the difficulties subside a little. .

Liam Byrne

hallelujajordan wrote: »

......and wait for the government to make the hard and unpopular decisions neccessary to bring about any sort of economic recovery.

Now where have we heard that description before....?

I can think of a good few decisions that would be "easy and popular" - a banking enquiry, for example, or a review of TD expenses, or an abolition of all quangos, or legal safeguards on our bailout, but this government has no interest in implementing them.

Money-wise, they may not be cash-cows, but they would certainly steady the ship and let the public see that everyone was being affected, and thereby reduce public disquiet.

But no, no action whatsover on any of those despite being 2 years into this disaster.

In addition, this government made none of the "hard and unpopular decisions necessary" during the boom, which would have prevented this mess.

hallelujajordan wrote: »

For instance, can we really imagine that a party that is strongly funded by the unions (labour) would really be ready and willing to bring about the much needed but rather savage public sector and social welfare pay cuts . . Easier to allow FF to do it and then come in when all the hard work is done.

Bad and all as the unions might be (particularly due to their new-found power after Ahern pandered to them), I'd prefer a party tied in with the unions than one tied in with the corrupt builders and bankers.

And as for "allow FF to do it and then come in when all the hard work is done", well my mum used to have a saying - if you make a mess, you clean up after it.

I'm not confident that FF can (or even want to) clean up their mess, but I can certainly see why FG & Labour would take that stand; I don't agree with it or condone it, but I do understand it.

hallelujajordan

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Now where have we heard that description before....?

I can think of a good few decisions that would be "easy and popular" - a banking enquiry, for example, or a review of TD expenses, or an abolition of all quangos, or legal safeguards on our bailout, but this government has no interest in implementing them.



Money-wise, they may not be cash-cows, but they would certainly steady the ship and let the public see that everyone was being affected, and thereby reduce public disquiet.

But no, no action whatsover on any of those despite being 2 years into this disaster.

In addition, this government made none of the "hard and unpopular decisions necessary" during the boom, which would have prevented this mess.



Bad and all as the unions might be (particularly due to their new-found power after Ahern pandered to them), I'd prefer a party tied in with the unions than one tied in with the corrupt builders and bankers.

And as for "allow FF to do it and then come in when all the hard work is done", well my mum used to have a saying - if you make a mess, you clean up after it.

I'm not confident that FF can (or even want to) clean up their mess, but I can certainly see why FG & Labour would take that stand; I don't agree with it or condone it, but I do understand it.

Jaysus, every thread comes back to the same 'I hate FF messages' . .

This thread is about the stength/weakness of the opposition

For what its worth you are out of date with a couple of your messages. It appears that there will be some form of banking inquiry. . we will learn more in the coming days I guess. . Also, there is firm commitment in the Programme for Government to tackle the expenses issue. . but don't lets get into a debate over this cos its way off topic.

Drumpot

imme wrote: »

How is our culture morally deficient?
The citizens of the state are all living through the current economic mess, the citizens didn't get us here though, I think that was the FF led govt's of the last few years.:rolleyes:

Would you class our government as morally deficient in areas? Most people would . .Like I said a government mirrors its people . .


What do you think would of happened had the government (during the boom years) not reduced financial regulation (to open the floodgates for mortgages) and hindered the building of houses/Apt's ?

Yes. . There would of been call for their heads as hundreds of thousands would of been desperate to get on the ladder and our conservative government would be pushed out for the opposition party . .

Of course things could of been done a lot better, but the biggest problem this country has is a reactive population and people are not looking for things to be done better. .

People also forget that the opposition partys were berating FF for not spending enough in the boom years (something they like us to forget) . .

View . . I accept that you may indeed be correct regarding the Scandinavian laws (it was simply something I heard in a debate). however, The very fact that this is something of paramount importance to the people of these countries highlights my point (that the important things really don't bother the Irish People) . . The Irish people still love the "cute Hooers" and will continue to do so until we change our mentality . .

Deep down in your hearts you know that while we will get a government change in the next election (which is needed), we will not get any significant culture change within the dail . . . . That in itself is a crime considering the pain we have had to endure over the last 2 years . .

Biggins

hallelujajordan wrote: »

...It appears that there will be some form of banking inquiry. . we will learn more in the coming days I guess...

It will also be interesting to see how far will be the range/scope of the inquiry allowed.
Conveniently a FF government will set what and what cannot be investigated! Nice and convenient for them I suspect.
They know sooner or later, under one government or another, an inquiry will be held so if I was them, I'd (reluctantly) create one while still in power (and keep investigations from coming too close to home!) than have an elected winning opposition do it. A new government (not FF) who would perhaps even dig deeper into the murky goings on of the political FF attachments to the banking sector.

Laminations

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Jaysus, every thread comes back to the same 'I hate FF messages' . .

This thread is about the stength/weakness of the opposition

But why? why talk about the fly on your finger when there's a dog eating your leg?
The opposition parties must really despair, after all that has gone on, all the corruption, mismanagement, waste, there are still floating voters, there are still people looking for a reason to not vote FF. I'm not affiliated to any party but I'd never describe myself as a floating voter after all thats gone on. There seems to be a suggestion that there is a bias against FF but I think the bias is towards the opposition. People still say they think they'll be no good in government but they'll only be tested when in government. You can't implement policy in opposition. And the argument that the opposition suggest no alternatives is unfair, for example look at the alternatives to NAMA. On the snow issue as someone has said, the government has access to the AG and state solicitors, the opposition parties are not in a position to confirm anything here.

I do agree we need a significant (cultural) change in politics as a whole, we need people from all socioeconomic backgrounds entering politics out of a desire to help society, as a vocation instead of family dynasties. This wont happen in the next election, its a slow change if it happens at all and again depends on voters.

Finally apologies if my recent thread was overly provocative, I used two groups who continued to show support, overlook wrong doing out of some sense of loyalty perhaps and I agree it was crossing a line. Apologies

Laminations

And just to play along -

Strengths:

• They didn't screw up the country
• They demand a proper top level clean out in the banks
• Listen to the opposition budget speeches (Richard Bruton at least was pointing out flaws in government policy and indicating problems in housing boom and inequality back in 2006)
• FG, Charlie Flanagan has proposed changes to the criminal justice bill that I believe are needed.
• They offered imo a better solution (less risk to the taxpayer) than NAMA - but it seems that even if they get power NAMA cannot be changed
• They offer an actual plan for universal health care
• They have Richard Bruton
• They have Dr. James O Reilly
• They dont have Mr Sterling Deposit

Weaknesses:

• They have Enda
• They have Joan Burton

Liam Byrne

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Jaysus, every thread comes back to the same 'I hate FF messages' . .

You mentioned the party line

hallelujajordan wrote: »

....the hard and unpopular decisions neccessary...

And I responded appropriately.

hallelujajordan wrote: »

This thread is about the stength/weakness of the opposition

And I agree that it's weak; anyone worthwhile would whitewash FF at the moment.

That said, when some people are saying "FG wouldn't do any better" (based on zero proof or facts), then the opposition parties must be bashing their heads off the wall wondering what they have to do to be seen as an alternative to the current crowd dragging the economy to its knees and hanging future generations for no reason.

hallelujajordan wrote: »

It appears that there will be some form of banking inquiry. . we will learn more in the coming days I guess. . Also, there is firm commitment in the Programme for Government to tackle the expenses issue. . but don't lets get into a debate over this cos its way off topic.

Agree that it's off-topic in terms of discussion the opposition, but it's on-topic in terms of hot air.......FF investigating corruption and f-ups and milking the system from within FF is not going to find anything worthwhile or punish wrongdoing or sort out expenses.

Take it from me, it'll be like the election promises of "zero tolerance".....all hot air and no worthwhile outcome.

Raiser

I honestly believe that the current Government Opposition has no right to any claim of having fulfilled a valid and meaningful role in a steadily worsening debacle that is unfolding with each new headline day on day.....

Is it acceptable to stand Witness to wrongdoing while making the odd feeble, vapid, token empty gestures and half-hearted protestations?

Mutter, mutter, Boo, boo - Right lets go make another pot of Tea.

As Political targets go Fianna Fail are a veritable Hindenburg; Large so as easy to hit, fundamentally flawed, floundering and on the verge of a spectacular demise........All we are missing is one bright Spark to set off the explosion of these Corrupt, self-serving Cretins Airship..... And going on form we'll be waiting for some time yet.....

Laminations

Raiser wrote: »

I honestly believe that the current Government Opposition has no right to any claim of having fulfilled a valid and meaningful role in a steadily worsening debacle that is unfolding with each new headline day on day.....

Is it acceptable to stand Witness to wrongdoing while making the odd feeble, vapid, token empty gestures and half-hearted protestations?

Mutter, mutter, Boo, boo - Right lets go make another pot of Tea.

As Political targets go Fianna Fail are a veritable Hindenburg; Large so as easy to hit, fundamentally flawed, floundering and on the verge of a spectacular demise.....

........All we are missing is one bright Spark..... And going on form we'll be waiting for some time yet.....

I agree with you to some extent but suggesting the opposition need a bright spark lacks a bit of detail. What would you suggest they do?
Vote of no confidence?
Defeated in the dail

Highlight FF ineptitude?
Political point scoring

Suggest alternative policies or approaches?
Be told your ideas wouldn't work and you dont know what you are talking about. Now obviously i have no proof that opposition party policies would have a better outcome but its too easy to knock an approach that is never implemented and tested.

My question to you is rhetorical, i dont think its necessary for someone to have a solution or answer when they highlight a problem.

Drumpot

Laminations wrote: »

I agree with you to some extent but suggesting the opposition need a bright spark lacks a bit of detail. What would you suggest they do?
Vote of no confidence?
Defeated in the dail

Highlight FF ineptitude?
Political point scoring

Suggest alternative policies or approaches?
Be told your ideas wouldn't work and you dont know what you are talking about. Now obviously i have no proof that opposition party policies would have a better outcome but its too easy to knock an approach that is never implemented and tested.

My question to you is rhetorical, i dont think its necessary for someone to have a solution or answer when they highlight a problem.

Thats fair enough . . But the major arguements usually put across for the opposition is that we need change and they have come out with some decent ideas . . on the flipside, they have come out with bad ideas (again over expenditure when times were good) and its not a credential to say "sure they couldnt do much worse then the shower in" . .

To properly analyse them, you have to look at their strengths and alternative policies that were suggested before the Sh*t hit the fan . . Hindsight policy thats spewn out annoys me ('Oh we would of done this or that ') . . Were they constantly demanding mortgage offers be reigned in ? Were they constantly demanding that the financial regulator tighten its regulation (which many people in financial services could of told you) . . Were they suggesting policies that would of improved our existing status (or just government bashing as usual) . .

Thats the first barometer to get a decent idea on how they would of handled themselves over the last few years . .

Liam Byrne

Drumpot wrote: »

Were they constantly demanding mortgage offers be reigned in ? Were they constantly demanding that the financial regulator tighten its regulation (which many people in financial services could of told you) . . Were they suggesting policies that would of improved our existing status (or just government bashing as usual) . .

Thats the first barometer to get a decent idea on how they would of have handled themselves over the last few years . .

Well, they certainly weren't claiming that anyone pointing out the problems would be better off committing suicide, and they weren't the ones that appointed said-same non-performing financial regulator.

So on that alone they'd have been "better".

Drumpot

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Well, they certainly weren't claiming that anyone pointing out the problems would be better off committing suicide, and they weren't the ones that appointed said-same non-performing financial regulator.

So on that alone they'd have been "better".

That means nothing Liam . . Either they were constructively trying to force changes for the good or they were simply pandering to the auditorium and just saying the exact opposite to government (or jumping on populist agendas). . .

Im only asking questions of the opposition, you just keep putting down FF as if it highlights the positive credentials of the opposition . . . You are stuck in that "anybody's better then FF" stage which is exactly what worries me . .

The barometer you (and thousands of others) have set for the opposition party is so low, they couldnt fail but to live up to your expectations . . This is why the country is in danger of voting in the opposition , without any real change occurring . .